Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by logan5

I've read article after article stating that the majority of the DTES population are from outside of Vancouver. The population of addicts and street people is so disproportionally large compared to other municipalities. I'm surprised you even question this as you seem to be well versed on what goes on in this city.

I, for one, would not be surprised if "article after article" are based on groupthink and repeating what others have said and not on data.

I have also heard that people move from other parts of Canada because of B.C.'s generous social services or the warmer weather, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of Vancouver natives have been displaced by skyrocketing housing costs

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

You didn't answer my question, I asked where the money is going to come from to give people disposable income and provide them homes, because money and housing doesn't just magically appear

I'm pretty certain Barack Obama was never addicted to hard drugs but if you have evidence to the contrary i'd like to see it. What's more, I never said any of those things lead to, "an unrecoverable downward spiral"

You never specified "taxpayer" money; the comment before that was about personal income. While the government should get more involved in building housing, cooling the housing market enough for people to get by means there's no new taxes needed.

It's fairly well known Obama used cocaine and hung with dealers as a teenager, something that he isn't proud of. But since we're playing who said what:

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

The fact you refuse to concede that the real traumas which lead to expansion of the DTES and the growing poverty industry (are?) sexual abuse, neglect, alcoholism, physical/emotional abuse, single-parenthood, poverty and drug abuse tells me how disconnected from reality your position is as you maintain the incredibly simple position that the high cost of rents/mortgages is what's driving the poverty industry when that is probably the last reason.

Obama is just the highest-profile counterexample. If Oprah, Eminem, Charlie Chaplin, Sonny Liston and others can go through much of the above and come out just fine, then it's not much more of an obstacle than housing insecurity.

Most DTES problem cases may be victims, but not every victim is a problem case. Most homeless aren't problem cases, but ALL problem cases are homeless.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I, for one, would not be surprised if "article after article" are based on groupthink and repeating what others have said and not on data.

I have also heard that people move from other parts of Canada because of B.C.'s generous social services or the warmer weather, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of Vancouver natives have been displaced by skyrocketing housing costs

If we can submit anecdotes, one of my classmates at a VCC summer course (way back when) was from Alberta and living in a shelter here. And at one point Saskatoon's entire social safety net was a one-way ticket to Vancouver. So there's definitely homeless coming in from out-of-province, even if we can't agree on how many.

[Zepfancouver]

Window Smash #6 https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comme..._source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[jollyburger]

So was someone killed if there's a stabbing and no one gets taken to hospital? Self inflicted?

A stabbing near Crab Park resulted in a heavy police presence Saturday.

BC Emergency Health Services says it received reports of the incident around 10:20 a.m. near Main Street and E Waterfront Road.

“Four paramedic ground units and a supervisor responded to the scene,” Justine Ma with EHS said.

No one was transported to the hospital, Ma adds.

An area of the park was cordoned off with police tape, as well as the Main Street overpass and part of Waterfront Road.

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2022/05/07/vancouver-crab-park-serious-incident/

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If we can submit anecdotes, one of my classmates at a VCC summer course (way back when) was from Alberta and living in a shelter here. And at one point Saskatoon's entire social safety net was a one-way ticket to Vancouver. So there's definitely homeless coming in from out-of-province, even if we can't agree on how many.

I think i've shared it before, my friend worked at a group home on Vancouver Island for adults with physical and mental problems ie unable to care for themselves. He said it was fairly common that parents would drop off their adult children here in BC and return to Manitoba or Saskatchewan leaving BC to take care of them for them.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

So was someone killed if there's a stabbing and no one gets taken to hospital? Self inflicted?

No, the 45 year old victim died at the scene. a 26 year old has been charged with second-degree murder.

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's fairly well known Obama used cocaine and hung with dealers as a teenager, something that he isn't proud of

There are plenty of people that have used hard drugs and not become addicted to them, myself for one, having used cocaine on a number of occasions. In fact i've smoked crack on more than one occasion and not become addicted to it either. What proof do you have that Obama even used cocaine let alone that he was addicted to it?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

There are plenty of people that have used hard drugs and not become addicted to them, myself for one, having used cocaine on a number of occasions. In fact i've smoked crack cocaine on more than one occasion and not become addicted to it either. What proof do you have that Obama even used cocaine let alone that he was addicted to it?

The fact that not every user becomes a DTES head case is my argument. Proof? How about practically every article about his high school years? It's hardly a secret after fourteen years of coverage.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Zepfancouver

Window Smash #6 https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comme..._source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Surprisingly, the owner is just a small-time retailer. Not every owner of high-end shops also owners of large corporations. The hardworking people always suffer the most due to the inaction of all levels of the government. I can say Vancouver is the worst city in this country when it comes to this type of lawlessness.

Suspect caught on camera smashing windows at high end retailer
https://globalnews.ca/video/8821250/suspect-caught-on-camera-smashing-windows-at-high-end-retailer/

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Most DTES problem cases may be victims, but not every victim is a problem case. Most homeless aren't problem cases, but ALL problem cases are homeless.

Where the heck did anyone say "Most homeless ARE problem cases"? Did you just make it up?

And what makes you think "ALL problem cases are homeless"? You are not even making any more sense at this point of your argument.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The fact that not every user becomes a DTES head case is my argument. Proof? How about practically every article about his high school years? It's hardly a secret after fourteen years of coverage.

Who cares if Obama was a cocaine user as a kid? The fact is that he did not end up a problem-person in the DTES, when many of your compatriots are. There is no point bringing him in when obviously his environment turned out to be way better than our city's dysfunctionality, so much so that he could quit cocaine and became the president of the United States. A user IS a problem no matter how you see it. Even if he or she does not commit any crime, the person will still cost society a lot: not only by not contributing to it due to frequent incapacitated episodes, but as a financial resource drain when there are mishaps such as getting into ODs, etc. Not every user is from the DTES, but you must agree that the DTES has the highest concentration of problem individuals and user in this whole country, right?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Where the heck did anyone say "Most homeless ARE problem cases"? Did you just make it up?

And what makes you think "ALL problem cases are homeless"? You are not even making any more sense at this point of your argument.

Who cares if Obama was a cocaine user as a kid? The fact is that he did not end up a problem-person in the DTES, when many of your compatriots are. There is no point bringing him in when obviously his environment turned out to be way better than our city's dysfunctionality, so much so that he could quit cocaine and became the president of the United States. A user IS a problem no matter how you see it. Even if he or she does not commit any crime, the person will still cost society a lot: not only by not contributing to it due to frequent incapacitated episodes, but as a financial resource drain when there are mishaps such as getting into ODs, etc. Not every user is from the DTES, but you must agree that the DTES has the highest concentration of problem individuals and user in this whole country, right?

Those repeat-offender articles about vandalism, sexual assault, murder and attempted murder that you love to post? Every single time, the perps come from tent cities, shelters or random street corners. Feel free to show me one that has a stable job and a fixed address in a rental, co-op or owned home. I’ll wait here.

And they turn to hard drugs because they’re homeless. Plenty of self-confessed users from stable backgrounds (and many from unstable ones) have turned their lives around using resources such as what's available in the DTES; long-time unsheltered street-dwellers only get worse, so better to put them into shelters before they're beyond that kind of help. You’re also proving my point.

[SeymourDrake]

The COV should allow business owners to cover the windows with security garage doors when closed. Worst that can happen is they get tagged.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sonny Liston and others can go through much of the above and come out just fine

Sonny Liston ended up “just fine?” Yikes 😳 I think a reread of his Wikipedia page is in order. 🤦🏼♂️

[Conrad Yablonski]

Yet more chaos in Kits-pic taken @ Comor Sports this AM

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Sonny Liston ended up “just fine?” Yikes ������ I think a reread of his Wikipedia page is in order. ������������♂️

Okay, but that was after he reached adulthood. His illiteracy was the thing that kept him from a decent job - not being abused as a kid.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Okay, but that was after he reached adulthood. His illiteracy was the thing that kept him from a decent job - not being abused as a kid.

It was actually more than just literacy that kept him from any kind of success. His shoddy upbringing and larger societal factors that hurt him a lot more than anything else. His brief run with success was literally by fluke and he was quickly taken advantage of by others even during that brief glimmer of light in an otherwise brutal life.
No idea how anyone can characterize him as having turned out “just fine.” That mans whole existence was a tragedy from the get-go to its somewhat predictable end.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

So was someone killed if there's a stabbing and no one gets taken to hospital? Self inflicted?

What is most furiating was to read that the incident had FOUR ambulances directed to Crab Park. All of this while regular people and elderly will have to wait hours upon hours for an ambulance even in urgent emergencies.

[Klazu]

I was in Downtown on Sunday, probably half year since last time. Took the SkyTrain to Waterfront and was immediately greeted by a syringe on the platform elevator floor and a random crazy shouting outside of the station. No biggie but it was interesting to see how little business activity there was around Canada Place even with two cruise ships docked and there being a fair bit of foot traffic.

What was also clearly noticeable was the increased amount of tags and graffiti around Downtown. I moved here from Berlin which is filled with vandalism and I always proudly regarded Vancouver a very clean cuty. Well, that sentiment is starting to change and I can only guess the reason for increased vandalism is the lack of any consequences for destroying or damaging property these days. I think the broken windows theory will once again prove itself real, as less and less is being done to address the problem. It's a sad to see a clear trend, especially around the entire peninsula.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Without making a judgement either way, I don't think I've seen any business activity around Waterfront - at least not since February 2010.

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

It was actually more than just literacy that kept him from any kind of success. His shoddy upbringing and larger societal factors that hurt him a lot more than anything else. His brief run with success was literally by fluke and he was quickly taken advantage of by others even during that brief glimmer of light in an otherwise brutal life.
No idea how anyone can characterize him as having turned out “just fine.” That mans whole existence was a tragedy from the get-go to its somewhat predictable end.

And yet he only turned to fighting after a short criminal career. And he was only a criminal because he couldn't read or write and had no work experience beyond tenant farming, effectively locking him out of city life.

"Just fine" in this context meaning "not homeless or hopelessly addicted." Despite an abusive/absent father and a broken family - which according to some people are two of the main driving factors of the DTES - Liston clearly managed to make a future for himself, even if it wasn't a very bright future.