Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by logan5

Within the city of Vancouver, it is a very small percentage of its area that is affected by social dysfunction. Commercial has a bad area around the Skytrain, but overall it is a great neighborhood. Even downtown for the most part is fine. There are beggars but it is safe even at night.

Agreed working downtown I don't notice anything unlike it was back in 2018 or 2019 west of Granville, same pre-pandemic business and school crowds with lots of busy sidewalks downtown and up n down Robson (people obviously got more dogs I swear!)... even in Gastown everything seems as it was (which wasn't great).

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Agreed working downtown I don't notice anything unlike it was back in 2018 or 2019 west of Granville, same pre-pandemic business and school crowds with lots of busy sidewalks downtown and up n down Robson (people obviously got more dogs I swear!)... even in Gastown everything seems as it was (which wasn't great).

You don's see the dysfunctional part of downtown in the daytime because it is currently drowned out by convention folks in business suits and nicely-dressed tourists. Once the locals start appearing again in the evenings or late at night you can see how sketchy it really is.

I've been working from the office for the past 2 years, and when there were no foreigners or hardly other visitors in town, you could see how horrible downtown had been. It still is on Granville Street and DTES, and this will never change: pre, during or post-pandemic. In fact, it is just getting worse.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Vin

Welcome back to the Third World.



Desensitization is a real thing.

Your right. Now that I look a little closer, I see that Kits, Kerrisdale, Fairview, Marpole, Mt Pleasant, South Fraser, Victoria Drive are nothing but cesspools of filth.

Seriously though, you don’t have a grasp of what this city is like if you think that most of the cov has issues.

[Vin]

Follow-up to the Gastown Steam Clock vandalism:

Here's what's next for Gastown's smashed up steam clock (PHOTOS)
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/gastown-steam-clock-repairs

I wonder what the City has in mind to ensure this kind of incident doesn't happen anymore. CCTV cameras perhaps? Ok who am I kidding.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

No pot met any kettle in anything I said because in order for that to have happened I must have been hypocritical in something I said, except there wasn't anything hypocritical so you're wrong again. I was clear and made the point that any renter can get evicted from any place if the property owner decides to sell which had nothing to do with renting adversely affecting kids. What's more I don't think kids think the same way adults do, especially when it comes to renting versus owning, I expect very few kids even know the difference let alone care, these are adult thoughts and concerns

As far as the two studies you cited, neither had much to do with two parent families producing better outcomes for kids than single-parent families but i'm not surprised given that lucidity isn't exactly your strength. The first study, "investigated whether adolescents living with parents of their same gender fare better on academic achievement than their peers living with opposite-gender parents." That's not the same as studying child outcomes from two-parent families versus single-parent families. The goal of the second study was, "to estimate the relative influence of family structure, maternal resources, and family mental health on predicting socioeconomic attainment in young adulthood." So it also was not a comparison between parenting outcomes of single-parent families to two-parent families so you've proved nothing although i'm sure you're very commited to this notion that single parents families are just as good for kids as are traditional families and renting is really traumatic for kids even though you've provided zero evidence. As i said, what is actually traumatic for kids are things like sexual abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse, neglect, and emotional/physical abuse for which there is mountains of evidence. You're right that stability is best for kids but what you don't understand is that two parent families provide greater stability than single-parent families and that's why they produce happier, better, more successful kids

"Ornery without any prompting" and "self-righteousness (coming) out of nowhere" describes your entire OP and follow-ups. This is the part where I talk about glass houses and stones.

That's a fairly privileged way of looking at it. Many kids, especially less-fortunate ones, are either directly or indirectly aware of how precarious their living situation is.

The strawman card works both ways: I said unstable living situations are traumatic for kids and adults alike. You asked for one study that shows single parent kids "fare better," and you got two. Children in stable single parent familes - especially daughters with single dads - having more academic success and getting better jobs is the very definition of "faring better."
Granted, just as with the studies that show two-parent families do better, the perceived advantage is either marginal or inconclusive; the only real difference is that the two-parent advantage studies made it into a BBC article.

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

"Ornery without any prompting" and "self-righteousness (coming) out of nowhere" describes your entire OP and follow-ups. This is the part where I talk about glass houses and stones.

That's a fairly privileged way of looking at it. Many kids, especially less-fortunate ones, are either directly or indirectly aware of how precarious their living situation is.

The strawman card works both ways: I said unstable living situations are traumatic for kids and adults alike. You asked for one study that shows single parent kids "fare better," and you got two. Children in stable single parent familes - especially daughters with single dads - having more academic success and getting better jobs is the very definition of "faring better."
Granted, just as with the studies that show two-parent families do better, the perceived advantage is either marginal or inconclusive; the only real difference is that the two-parent advantage studies made it into a BBC article.

You live in Kits/Fairview and you want to talk to me about privilege? I'll bet the average house in your neighborhood is worth twice what the average house in my Victoria neighborhood is worth. Just using the word privilege strongly suggests you're a lefty because I don't hear that word a lot from centrists and right-wingers who understand that anyone can overcome their station in life through hard work but people that believe that others are "privileged" typically like to play the victim card every chance they get by chalking up their own failures to others simply having more "privilege" than them. Also, i've experienced the DTES first hand because I lived there, have you?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

You live in Kits/Fairview and you want to talk to me about privilege? I'll bet the average house in your neighborhood is worth twice what the average house in my Victoria neighborhood is worth. Just using the word privilege strongly suggests you're a lefty because I don't hear that word a lot from centrists and right-wingers who understand that anyone can overcome their station in life through hard work but people that believe that others are "privileged" typically like to play the victim card every chance they get by chalking up their own failures to others simply having more "privilege" than them. Also, i've experienced the DTES first hand because I lived there, have you?

I see you’ve run out of things to say, so you have to try and go at me instead. Classy. For the record, I never called you privileged, I called your argument privileged. The kids you have experience with, they may be naive and carefree. Others are more aware of the world than you’d think.

Yes, I live near Kitsilano. No, while our rent is in-line with most of Victoria, I’m not here to play Hardship Olympics with you. Yes, I’ve had experience with the DTES. No, church, two parents or less “feminism” wouldn’t do squat – the eleven churches, men’s resource centre and number of homeless from nuclear families proves they're not exactly making a difference. Having enough disposable income and a secure home in order to not get stuck in the area's poverty trap in the first place? That just might.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Vin

Follow-up to the Gastown Steam Clock vandalism.

Since the steam clock is on unceded land, it should be torn down and be replaced by a totem pole.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by logan5

There is a sketchy/druggy element along the Broadway Corridor, but if you are not familiar with Broadway, I’ll say it’s nothing close to as bad as areas in the peninsula. I live in mt pleasant and have never actually seen anybody doing drugs. Maybe there are some doing it, but they don’t do it out in the open. The stretch of Broadway between Commercial and Main is mostly residential. It’s fairly quiet. The number of functional people far outnumber the very few dysfunctional people at night, so it’s very safe at night. Mt. Pleasant is a safe neighbourhood.

Glad that this has been your experience but a female friend of mine was so happy to get out of the area as drug users kept constantly breaking into her backyard and trying to get into their house. It was one of quaint houses on the side street. Wasn't it also in this area where someone was very recently randomly stabbed through their neck? One's milage may vary but definitely an area to keep your eyes open for many crazies.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Klazu

One's milage may vary

That's the kicker. So many male urbanists seem to wear some pretty good blinders when it comes to the safety of others, like children, the elderly and women.

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by s211

That's the kicker. So many male urbanists seem to wear some pretty good blinders when it comes to the safety of others, like children, the elderly and women.

Some people just aren't willing to accept that their 'hood' has gone to sh*t. As long as they have their craft beer and Lucky's donuts.. who cares if they have to step over junkies to get to it?

We also seem to have a few CoV fanboys here.. friends of the mayor maybe?

Ron.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Wasn't it also in this area where someone was very recently randomly stabbed through their neck? One's milage may vary but definitely an area to keep your eyes open for many crazies.

You're possibly thinking of the 51 year old woman who was Vancouver's third homicide of the year. It was reported earlier this week that she was stabbed - although no news reports said where her injuries were. (A woman was stabbed in the neck last year - but that was in Vancouver, Washington, and she wasn't killed). The Mount Pleasant attack wasn't reported as a random attack - it took place in a home, and a 51 year old man has been arrested. It's an example of domestic violence, but no different from the stabbing of a woman in Metrotown mall earlier this year. Her boyfriend was arrested on charges of 2nd degree murder.

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Since the steam clock is on unceded land, it should be torn down and be replaced by a totem pole.

And what would that accomplish?

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I see you’ve run out of things to say, so you have to try and go at me instead. Classy. For the record, I never called you privileged, I called your argument privileged. The kids you have experience with, they may be naive and carefree. Others are more aware of the world than you’d think.

Yes, I live near Kitsilano. No, while our rent is in-line with most of Victoria, I’m not here to play Hardship Olympics with you. Yes, I’ve had experience with the DTES. No, church, two parents or less “feminism” wouldn’t do squat – the eleven churches, men’s resource centre and number of homeless from nuclear families proves they're not exactly making a difference. Having enough disposable income and a secure home in order to not get stuck in the area's poverty trap in the first place? That just might.

There's nothing ad hominem about pointing out hypocrisy, it's incumbent upon everyone to call it out

I conceded that feminism wasn't behind the divorce rate/rise of single-parenthood as I said, the divorce rate has actually been dropping for some time

The fact you refuse to concede that the real traumas which lead to expansion of the DTES and the growing poverty industry like sexual abuse, neglect, alcoholism, physical/emotional abuse, single-parenthood, poverty and drug abuse tells me how disconnected from reality your position is as you maintain the incredibly simple position that the high cost of rents/mortgages is what's driving the poverty industry when that is probably the last reason. Childhood trauma is the leading cause of things like alcoholism and drug addiction but to you, its all foolishly about the high cost of rent/mortgages. There's zero nuance to your position but even if it were true, what could be done about it? At least the BC Liberals years ago tried tackling the issue with their 15% tax on offshore real estate purchasers but what have the NDP done?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

Some people just aren't willing to accept that their 'hood' has gone to sh*t. As long as they have their craft beer and Lucky's donuts.. who cares if they have to step over junkies to get to it?

We also seem to have a few CoV fanboys here.. friends of the mayor maybe?

Ron.

I see a lot of people who creepily enjoy focusing on these issues and saying over and over and over again that the sky is falling. Maybe they’re the ones in need of friends, to get out of the house, and realize that the problem’s not everything they’re blowing it up to be.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I see a lot of people who creepily enjoy focusing on these issues and saying over and over and over again that the sky is falling. Maybe they’re the ones in need of friends, to get out of the house, and realize that the problem’s not everything they’re blowing it up to be.

Correction:
"I see a lot of people who creepily enjoy dismissing these issues and saying over and over and over again that Vancouver doesn't have a serious problem"

I suppose these people also think that downtown core business owners and the VPD are nothing but lousy creeps:
VPD responds to rising crime in downtown core
https://vpd.ca/news/2021/09/16/vpd-respo...0safety%20in%20the%20community.%E2%80%9D

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

And what would that accomplish?



There's nothing ad hominem about pointing out hypocrisy, it's incumbent upon everyone to call it out

I conceded that feminism wasn't behind the divorce rate/rise of single-parenthood as I said, the divorce rate has actually been dropping for some time

The fact you refuse to concede that the real traumas which lead to expansion of the DTES and the growing poverty industry like sexual abuse, neglect, alcoholism, physical/emotional abuse, single-parenthood, poverty and drug abuse tells me how disconnected from reality your position is as you maintain the incredibly simple position that the high cost of rents/mortgages is what's driving the poverty industry when that is probably the last reason. Childhood trauma is the leading cause of things like alcoholism and drug addiction but to you, its all foolishly about the high cost of rent/mortgages. There's zero nuance to your position but even if it were true, what could be done about it? At least the BC Liberals years ago tried tackling the issue with their 15% tax on offshore real estate purchasers but what have the NDP done?

Try and work that angle all you want, it’s not going to get you anywhere. You’re just upset because you came in with intent to trigger people, but ended up getting triggered yourself.

Don’t try and flip this around - nobody’s taken issue with the “trauma” part, it’s with the “traditional family” and “church” part. All I've said is that an unstable housing situation makes a bad childhood worse. How many problem cases come from traditional Christian families? Plenty. How many are below the poverty line and/or homeless? Effectively all of them. And hey, since you brought up self-improvement, plenty of people who’ve had traumatic childhoods have gone on to lead successful lives – one of them even became the 44th American president, so the PTSD card is about as relevant as the poverty card.

Simple: build more housing, cool the housing market, prevent demovictions. Keep them off the streets while they're still human and before they turn into junkies, and that’s half the problem solved. The NDP's already reopening Riverview, exactly what else are they supposed to do about trauma, let alone personal pet peeves like church attendance?

[logan5]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

Some people just aren't willing to accept that their 'hood' has gone to sh*t. As long as they have their craft beer and Lucky's donuts.. who cares if they have to step over junkies to get to it?

We also seem to have a few CoV fanboys here.. friends of the mayor maybe?

Ron.

I said that the problems with drug users or homeless in Mt. Pleasant is concentrated around Main and Broadway area. Once you get a few blocks north or south on Main, things are fine. There are a few steady panhandlers outside a few of the corner stores, but they don't do drugs out in the open, and they never bother people. That's a fact.

Any person who feels frightened in Mt. Pleasant should not be living in any urban environment in any city then, because this neighbourhood is just as safe as any densely populated neighbourhood in Canada.

Vin, as usual you don't know wtf you are talking about. As well as a few others who are just trying to paint as bleak a picture as possible.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by giallo

^Just look at the living hell that Scandinavia is......oh, wait.

Some parts of Scandinavia actually have some pretty serious social problems.

But they're not related to this.

[CivicBlues]

ITT: People who justify their life choices by shitting on other people's life choices. Appears that they have something in common with those they rant about day in and day out on this thread.

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Try and work that angle all you want, it’s not going to get you anywhere. You’re just upset because you came in with intent to trigger people, but ended up getting triggered yourself.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And hey, since you brought up self-improvement, plenty of people who’ve had traumatic childhoods have gone on to lead successful lives – one of them even became the 44th American president, so the PTSD card is about as relevant as the poverty card.

Obama had a traumatic childhood? That's news to me

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Simple: build more housing, cool the housing market, prevent demovictions. Keep them off the streets while they're still human and before they turn into junkies, and that’s half the problem solved

We've had a building boom here in Victoria for years so city council here is at least getting that right

How do you propose to "cool the housing market and prevent demovictions"?

"Keep them off the streets while they're still human and before they turn into junkies, and that’s half the problem solved" I don't think you have any idea how addiction works but drug addicts care about getting their next high more than rent, more than loved ones, more than food, more than money, more than housing, more than anything so to think you can house people like that is absurd, there are too far gone by that point

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The NDP's already reopening Riverview, exactly what else are they supposed to do about trauma

The BC Liberals announced they would reopen Riverview 7 years ago and it still hasn't happened so what are the NDP doing in the meantime? Since they took over in 2017 the problem has grown exponentially