Broadway Subway - Millennium Line Extension to Arbutus | U/C

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by officedweller

But you are right in that it'll be complicated to restart the tunnel for the UBC extension since it doesn't allow them to "bury" the TBMs for future restart (but the TBMs could just be rented anyways).

That's my issue right there (and it's practically a given the TBMs will be rented and not buried for future use). There won't be the option of continuing from Arbutus towards UBC, and how are they going to start at UBC / Jericho and then dig them out without causing problems at / near Arbutus station? I would have through they'd tunnel somewhat past Arbutus to minimize future disruptions.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I find that confusing as Cypress Street is two blocks *before* Arbutus. You'd think they would tunnel past Arbutus to make it easier when they continue the tunnel to UBC.

There is a set of track switches just east of Arbutus station to allow for turning trains around. They're going to excavate the space required for those as part of the station block, rather than building the two tunnels and then needing to somehow excavate between them.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Sheba

That's my issue right there (and it's practically a given the TBMs will be rented and not buried for future use). There won't be the option of continuing from Arbutus towards UBC, and how are they going to start at UBC / Jericho and then dig them out without causing problems at / near Arbutus station? I would have through they'd tunnel somewhat past Arbutus to minimize future disruptions.

Seems doubtful that they are rented. Most TBMs have 10,000 lifespans and while they might sell back some of the equipment back to the supplier/recycled it seems more likely they bought them. Each one costs probably around $20 million?

That is why Herrenknecht – if so agreed – buys back the valuable components of the deployed machines from customers after tunnelling is completed in order to professionally rebuild them. This is particularly beneficial for many joint ventures, which do not really need the equipment purchased together for the duration of the project once it has ended. The bought back components are then rebuilt in Herrenknecht's rebuilding plant at various levels of quality, depending on the requirements of the next project. Remanufacturing is the highest level, the best way to preserve the existing value of these components and bring them to a completely new life cycle.

https://allaround.herrenknecht.com/en/is...ues-together/premium-by-definition.popup

[Tvisforme]

A couple of thoughts with respect to the TBMs:

- the brief mention about tunneling to Cypress doesn't preclude carrying on for a short distance west of Arbutus and parking the TBMs until the UBC phase begins construction. There's no reason to mention it in a news release since the only people who really care about those details are on sites like this one.

- even if they are currently planning to only go as far as Cypress, there's a lot of time between now and when tunnelling is complete. Odds are we'll have a much better idea about the UBC extension before then and the plans can be adjusted.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

A couple of thoughts with respect to the TBMs:

- the brief mention about tunneling to Cypress doesn't preclude carrying on for a short distance west of Arbutus and parking the TBMs until the UBC phase begins construction. There's no reason to mention it in a news release since the only people who really care about those details are on sites like this one.

- even if they are currently planning to only go as far as Cypress, there's a lot of time between now and when tunnelling is complete. Odds are we'll have a much better idea about the UBC extension before then and the plans can be adjusted.

TMBs can't just be "parked" underground, they require the open tunnel for transportation of spoil and wall segments. They would also require a full overhaul if left alone for potentially 10 years.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

A couple of thoughts with respect to the TBMs:

- the brief mention about tunneling to Cypress doesn't preclude carrying on for a short distance west of Arbutus and parking the TBMs until the UBC phase begins construction. There's no reason to mention it in a news release since the only people who really care about those details are on sites like this one.

- even if they are currently planning to only go as far as Cypress, there's a lot of time between now and when tunnelling is complete. Odds are we'll have a much better idea about the UBC extension before then and the plans can be adjusted.

They specifically have mentioned it being removed from the tunnel in all their press releases. You can't just park a TBM underground for a few years and magically restart it. And you'll still have to deal with a pit at Arbutus to remove all the dirt/store tunneling lining (assuming you are planning on finishing the subway while they finish the extension to UBC).

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

They specifically have mentioned it being removed from the tunnel in all their press releases. You can't just park a TBM underground for a few years and magically restart it. And you'll still have to deal with a pit at Arbutus to remove all the dirt/store tunneling lining (assuming you are planning on finishing the subway while they finish the extension to UBC).

Sorry, my bad, I completely missed the last line of the release quoted in this thread. In terms of storing, I was thinking about a situation where the decision to start the UBC extension is made while the Broadway subway is still under construction, and not not keeping it there on spec. That should have been made more clear in my post.

Is it possible that they will dig (by other means) at least a few dozen metres or more past the western end of the Arbutus station given the likelihood of a UBC project? Otherwise, even if you come from the west, you're still looking at a lot of disruption to Arbutus Station when the tunnels connect. It is hard to imagine closing that station for an extended period once new travel patterns have been extablished.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Sorry, my bad, I completely missed the last line of the release quoted in this thread. In terms of storing, I was thinking about a situation where the decision to start the UBC extension is made while the Broadway subway is still under construction, and not not keeping it there on spec. That should have been made more clear in my post.

Is it possible that they will dig (by other means) at least a few dozen metres or more past the western end of the Arbutus station given the likelihood of a UBC project? Otherwise, even if you come from the west, you're still looking at a lot of disruption to Arbutus Station when the tunnels connect. It is hard to imagine closing that station for an extended period once new travel patterns have been extablished.

The only problem in that scenario is that they would still need to do all the geotechnical work for the tunnel and not sure if they can do it without the station blocks pre-built or not.

You assume that they will build out the system to accommodate the extension without any long-term disruptions at Arbutus (I think that's why they've mentioned the Jericho Lands as the staging ground for the TBMs)

[jollyburger]

This document has the best description of the plans for west of Arbutus (not sure if they've changed it). Didn't see any diagrams with the switches east of the station that someone mentioned previously.

Once the Tunnel Boring Machines are removed, the final stretch of the tunnel between Cypress and Arbutus will be excavated with mining equipment. A tail track that extends underground west of Arbutus Street will also be mined. The tail track allows trains to park off the main line and switch to the opposite side of the track. This work will be completed entirely underground.

https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/app/upload...on-Overview-Arbutus-v03-20211123-WEB.pdf

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

The only problem in that scenario is that they would still need to do all the geotechnical work for the tunnel and not sure if they can do it without the station blocks pre-built or not.

You assume that they will build out the system to accommodate the extension without any long-term disruptions at Arbutus (I think that's why they've mentioned the Jericho Lands as the staging ground for the TBMs)

They will presumably also have to tender the construction of the extension. There's no guarantee it would be the same contractor for the tunneling, and a different contractor would make their own equipment arrangements.

There wouldn't seem to be a major problem in running the boring machine from Jericho to the end of the Arbutus tail track, extracting it, reassembling it and then starting again at Jericho, going west. It adds to the cost somewhat, but reduces the complexity overall. There would have to be a surface extraction pit at, or near Arbutus, and maybe a bit of cut-and-cover (or mined, as they're currently planning) if they stop short of the station box, but I assume that's all do-able.

[jollyburger]

Sounds like the tail tracks are east of the station though. But you assume they will mine out to the West of Arbutus.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

This document has the best description of the plans for west of Arbutus (not sure if they've changed it). Didn't see any diagrams with the switches east of the station that someone mentioned previously.



https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/app/upload...on-Overview-Arbutus-v03-20211123-WEB.pdf

Thanks!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by madog222

TMBs can't just be "parked" underground, they require the open tunnel for transportation of spoil and wall segments. They would also require a full overhaul if left alone for potentially 10 years.

By the time the tunneling stops, could we see the extension from UBC approved and see the TBMs refitted and used for the next phase?
Would it save any money?

[officedweller]

The graphic I posted states removal of the TBM at the road deck at Cypress.

TBM removal seems to be possible in tight spaces - like was done for Canada Line.

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by madog222

TMBs can't just be "parked" underground, they require the open tunnel for transportation of spoil and wall segments. They would also require a full overhaul if left alone for potentially 10 years.

Here's my dream: prov/feds find half-a-billion under the mattress or something and they just continue drilling westward from Arbutus. Use Shell gas station on NW corner of Broadway and Arbutus and maybe the two storey property to the west of that as a new western location for spoil removal and tunnel segments as they continue to drill.

Then at Alma and Broadway they could use the former gas station site on the SE corner to remove the TBM or what not.

Couldn't make it much further than that for $500m I'm assuming but at least the hard part, the drilling would be done, figure out the station, track laying, etc money later.

I mean come on, the TBM will be right there at Broadway and Arbutus, keep the party rolling. It'll be a long time before they can get the $2B-$3B+ together to extend all the way to UBC. It'd be more likely to happen by splitting it up, which isn't everyone's favourite solution, but more west is still more best.

[Jimbo604]

Traffic deck completed at Main Street. Anyone around there for pictures?

https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/construction/current-work/

"On the night of April 19, the traffic deck will be completed, and four lanes of traffic will be opened on E. Broadway between Main and Quebec streets.
Upon completion on the morning of April 20, the traffic deck will have four lanes (2 westbound, 2 eastbound"

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

Traffic deck completed at Main Street. Anyone around there for pictures?

https://www.broadwaysubway.ca/construction/current-work/

"On the night of April 19, the traffic deck will be completed, and four lanes of traffic will be opened on E. Broadway between Main and Quebec streets.
Upon completion on the morning of April 20, the traffic deck will have four lanes (2 westbound, 2 eastbound"

I would if I was in town, to keep up I have been following on CoV traffic cameras.

https://trafficcams.vancouver.ca/mainBroadway.htm

[Nicholas Hui]

If you go to YouTube, the latest video about the Broadway Subway station construction was on April 17, 2022. These YouTube videos were uploaded by Hello World

[madog222]

Traffic deck at Oak is now open, straight to four lanes though one turns into a left turn lane at Oak. I'm guessing they will expand to five lanes wide on the west end.


Image from BC Moti https://www.flickr.com/photos/tranbc/52031944084/in/dateposted/

[jollyburger]

They couldn't make it a little wider?