Ontario Highways

[Dengler Avenue]

416 goes through a safe PC riding though.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It probably doesn't say much but all of the 110 highways, save for maybe Windsor, are located in PC-held ridings. They kind of have to be, though, given how vote patterns go.

Does it surprise anyone?

[sonysnob]

It's impossible to know what exact political motivations are for any given decision, but I doubt the exact political ridings have that much sway in the decision to up highway speed limits.

Specifically for the 416, the curves on both sides of Barrhaven might be approaching the minimums for 120km/h design speeds. I don't know what the exact curve radii for any of the curves is exactly, but from driving the highway I've noticed that those curves in particular are resonably sharp. Certainly the curves around Barrhaven are tighter than any of the curves are on the 417 between Kanata and Arnprior.

As the speed limits are increased gradually across the province, it's not surprising that the province is selecting the absolute lowest hanging fruit first when raising the limits.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

It's impossible to know what exact political motivations are for any given decision, but I doubt the exact political ridings have that much sway in the decision to up highway speed limits.

Specifically for the 416, the curves on both sides of Barrhaven might be approaching the minimums for 120km/h design speeds. I don't know what the exact curve radii for any of the curves is exactly, but from driving the highway I've noticed that those curves in particular are resonably sharp. Certainly the curves around Barrhaven are tighter than any of the curves are on the 417 between Kanata and Arnprior.

As the speed limits are increased gradually across the province, it's not surprising that the province is selecting the absolute lowest hanging fruit first when raising the limits.

someone told me (might have been you) that you work for the MTO.

So, if we take politics out of it, and just used traffic and road design, would these be the best locations for bringing in a higher speed limit.


Isn't Tilbury the sight of one of the worst crashes on the 400 series highways? So bad, it is nicknamed 'Carnage Alley'?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

someone told me (might have been you) that you work for the MTO.

So, if we take politics out of it, and just used traffic and road design, would these be the best locations for bringing in a higher speed limit.


Isn't Tilbury the sight of one of the worst crashes on the 400 series highways? So bad, it is nicknamed 'Carnage Alley'?

Yes, and the 401 has been significantly upgraded in that area, mainly due to that crash. You certainly can't deny that if any 400-series road should be 110, it's the 402, no matter which party controls the ridings it's in. I would say the first 30km of the 403 east of Woodstock should be as well.

[Dengler Avenue]

@sonysnob doesn’t work for MTO, IIRC.
The choice of the Windsor-Tilbury section of 401 is indeed a bit odd, though it may be fine given the 6 lanes with a concrete median barrier.
It’s hard to answer your question, @swimmer_spe, given that MTO uses 120 kph for design speed of freeways and that it has the habit of posting the speed limit at 20 kph below the design speed. That said, I don’t know what a speed limit of 110 kph means either, i.e. is it a tacit admission that 130 kph is achievable in most parts?
By the way, with 0.06 superelevation, the turning radii for 120 kph design speed needs to be 650 m at least, then that number jumps to 800 m for 130 kph.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

It's impossible to know what exact political motivations are for any given decision, but I doubt the exact political ridings have that much sway in the decision to up highway speed limits.

Specifically for the 416, the curves on both sides of Barrhaven might be approaching the minimums for 120km/h design speeds. I don't know what the exact curve radii for any of the curves is exactly, but from driving the highway I've noticed that those curves in particular are resonably sharp. Certainly the curves around Barrhaven are tighter than any of the curves are on the 417 between Kanata and Arnprior.

As the speed limits are increased gradually across the province, it's not surprising that the province is selecting the absolute lowest hanging fruit first when raising the limits.

The rest of the 416 definitely would be one I'd consider for the higher limit. For a highway that's only ~75km long, it feels twice that. Aside from Barrhaven, it's pretty lightly travelled too and seems up to the challenge of 110 km/h easily.

[Dengler Avenue]

Indeed. As I’ve mentioned in the Ottawa subsection, the omission of 416 through Leeds & Grenville was a bit odd.

[Blitz]

Hwy 401 was completely rebuilt from Windsor to Tilbury only about 10 years ago to the best safety standards so I'm not surprised by the increased limit. When you're driving on that stretch you can just tell that it was designed for higher speeds.

[sonysnob]

I suspect that the 416 will probably get a 110km/h speed limit at some point, but my point was that they are going after the lowest hanging fruit first.

Each region in the south got one additional segment of 110.

Southwest got the 401 from Windsor to Tilbury, which I think is a pretty logical location. The carnage alley collision on the 401 occurred before the highway had been six laned. The 401 is a very high quality road today.

Central region got the 404

Eastern region got another section of the 417. I suspect the 416 will eventually be raised as well, but the 417 was probably a slightly better candidate from a technical perspective.

And then two highways in the near north. I'm not surprised at all about the 400 extension speed limit raise (that was set to be raised during the Spring of 2020 before it was shelved because of Covid), but the segment of 11 does surprise me a bit. I wasn't aware that that segment was a candidate for a higher limit.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Yes, and the 401 has been significantly upgraded in that area, mainly due to that crash. You certainly can't deny that if any 400-series road should be 110, it's the 402, no matter which party controls the ridings it's in. I would say the first 30km of the 403 east of Woodstock should be as well.

402 does make sense. So does parts of the 403.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

@sonysnob doesn’t work for MTO, IIRC.
The choice of the Windsor-Tilbury section of 401 is indeed a bit odd, though it may be fine given the 6 lanes with a concrete median barrier.
It’s hard to answer your question, @swimmer_spe, given that MTO uses 120 kph for design speed of freeways and that it has the habit of posting the speed limit at 20 kph below the design speed. That said, I don’t know what a speed limit of 110 kph means either, i.e. is it a tacit admission that 130 kph is achievable in most parts?
By the way, with 0.06 superelevation, the turning radii for 120 kph design speed needs to be 650 m at least, then that number jumps to 800 m for 130 kph.

In general, the 400 series highways have been designed to a much higher speed limit.

Originally Posted by Blitz

Hwy 401 was completely rebuilt from Windsor to Tilbury only about 10 years ago to the best safety standards so I'm not surprised by the increased limit. When you're driving on that stretch you can just tell that it was designed for higher speeds.

Still, with the moniker of Carnage Alley, one would expect it to be one of the last.

[Dengler Avenue]

It’s not so much that MTO designs it to higher speed, but that MTO generally avoids using minimum values for design, so it may feel like one can go faster.

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Still, with the moniker of Carnage Alley, one would expect it to be one of the last.

But the reason it was 'carnage alley' was because of its horrible original 1950s style design. Before it was rebuilt it had a very narrow flat median (only grass with no concrete barrier), narrow shoulders, no rumble strips, etc. Vehicles would easily cross over the median into oncoming traffic. The major accidents stopped happening after the road was reconstructed.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Isn't Tilbury the sight of one of the worst crashes on the 400 series highways? So bad, it is nicknamed 'Carnage Alley'?

It wasn’t in Tilbury, it was in Tecumseh, right on the Windsor border where that horrible crash happened due to foggy conditions.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Blitz

But the reason it was 'carnage alley' was because of its horrible original 1950s style design. Before it was rebuilt it had a very narrow flat median (only grass with no concrete barrier), narrow shoulders, no rumble strips, etc. Vehicles would easily cross over the median into oncoming traffic. The major accidents stopped happening after the road was reconstructed.

Some of the worst ones happened during extreme fog too. Can't prevent that from happening again, but it can be mitigated and that's what the highway design helps to do.

This was west of the "alley" but still similar infrastructure issues at the time:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/highway-401-fog-crash-1999-windsor-manning-road-1.5267759
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/...rash-brings-back-vivid-haunting-memories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Ontario_Highway_401_crash

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Blitz

But the reason it was 'carnage alley' was because of its horrible original 1950s style design. Before it was rebuilt it had a very narrow flat median (only grass with no concrete barrier), narrow shoulders, no rumble strips, etc. Vehicles would easily cross over the median into oncoming traffic. The major accidents stopped happening after the road was reconstructed.

I get it was rebuilt, but one would think it would be the last area to get a speed limit increased.

Originally Posted by north 42

It was t in Tilbury, it was in Tecumseh, right on the Windsor border where that horrible crash happened due to foggy conditions.

My mistake.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Some of the worst ones happened during extreme fog too. Can't prevent that from happening again, but it can be mitigated and that's what the highway design helps to do.

This was west of the "alley" but still similar infrastructure issues at the time:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/highway-401-fog-crash-1999-windsor-manning-road-1.5267759
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/...rash-brings-back-vivid-haunting-memories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Ontario_Highway_401_crash

Now that you mention it, the one on the 400 is in a snow belt. Maybe they are picking these high danger areas to see what an added 10km/hr does. Maybe if they see no issues, then they will roll it out on all divided highways.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Now that you mention it, the one on the 400 is in a snow belt. Maybe they are picking these high danger areas to see what an added 10km/hr does. Maybe if they see no issues, then they will roll it out on all divided highways.

Or maybe when weather conditions are poor, we all just slow down instead of going at the posted speed limit. Which many of us tend to do anyway on roads signed for 100 km/h, or 80, sometimes even less.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Or maybe when weather conditions are poor, we all just slow down instead of going at the posted speed limit. Which many of us tend to do anyway on roads signed for 100 km/h, or 80, sometimes even less.

But how are you supposed to be featured on Heavy Rescue 401?

[ScreamingViking]

Posthumously.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Posthumously.

Most featured on there survived. Some even get a helicopter ride.