UBCx - Millennium Line Extension Arbutus to UBC | Proposed

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Methinks they want a future station near Blanca and 10th, given the language used in the report.

would be nice, a nice little retail for a few blocks there. Though since Safeway closed it's a little less busy but has potential.

[svlt]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

https://council.vancouver.ca/20220323/documents/r1.pdf

- I realized this was the right thread for this

I really like how the Jericho station veers north of Broadway, wonder where it will be placed within Jericho lands. The closer to 4th the better I think to allow the beach to be better accessed through public transit.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Yah, but here's the thing: if the sounds don't exist in European languages then people whose native tongue is one of those languages won't be able to produce them, at least not without training. It's exactly the same issue that Asian people have when trying to pronounce an "L" sound - it comes out as "R" because they don't have the "L" sound in their native language.

So my point is, if there's a desire in the native community to have their names more widely adopted, then the only way to make it happen in this community of non-native speakers is to produce some facsimile of the word that the rest of us can deal with - including writing it in a way that we can readily understand.

If that accommodation can't be made, then the native word will be fated to be ignored in favor of some other word that folks can deal with more easily. Surely that's not the goal, is it?

And if the people who want to learn already have a hard time, the people who don't want to learn aren't even going to try. It's almost like Jim Crow - there's an MST name for the FN, and there's a "normal" name for everybody else. Not sure how this helps reconciliation... or if it's meant to help at all.

Originally Posted by SpongeG

would be nice, a nice little retail for a few blocks there. Though since Safeway closed it's a little less busy but has potential.

That said, the retail only goes up to Tolmie; Blanca itself is bland midrises on two corners and a golf "museum" on the other. Gonna need some serious rezoning here.

Apparently, there's a Sungiven moving in later.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And if the people who want to learn already have a hard time, the people who don't want to learn aren't even going to try. It's almost like Jim Crow - there's an MST name for the FN, and there's a "normal" name for everybody else. Not sure how this helps reconciliation... or if it's meant to help at all.

if anyone wants something to be mainstream, the word needs to be anglicized because people wont use it otherwise. it doesn't matter how many natives, SJW's or the woke crowd want it, but the world is primarily English. Canada is English. North America is English.

look at the Art Gallery North Plaza. anyone call it by the name even the natives and mayor couldn't pronounce when unavailing the name? or Queen Elizabeth Plaza?

also, it needs to be able to be GOOGLED. if it cant be, then... if it isn't easy to pronounce or type out, it wont be used. also, it should have Jericho in the name since, well you know, that is literally Jericho... people need to be able to know where they are on transit easily.

Stadium station with Chinatown added to it is borderline. its right next to the stadiums, but not exactly in Chinatown.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

the world is primarily English.

I don't know what definition you have of "primarily" but I don't think you used it correctly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Yah, but here's the thing: if the sounds don't exist in European languages then people whose native tongue is one of those languages won't be able to produce them, at least not without training. It's exactly the same issue that Asian people have when trying to pronounce an "L" sound - it comes out as "R" because they don't have the "L" sound in their native language.

So my point is, if there's a desire in the native community to have their names more widely adopted, then the only way to make it happen in this community of non-native speakers is to produce some facsimile of the word that the rest of us can deal with - including writing it in a way that we can readily understand.

If that accommodation can't be made, then the native word will be fated to be ignored in favor of some other word that folks can deal with more easily. Surely that's not the goal, is it?

"Asian" people don't have a problem with the L sound. Japanese people do. It's literally the difference between 5 billion people and 125 million.

But your main point still stands, why make it impossible and frustrating for the layperson to learn the script when a simple adjustment can make reconciliation that much easier?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

But your main point still stands, why make it impossible and frustrating for the layperson to learn the script when a simple adjustment can make reconciliation that much easier?

You could take it up with the Caucasians who decided to invent the Squamish and Halkomelem (Musqueam/Tsleil-Waututh) written languages on their behalf. Whatever you think of the current situation, there's a certain irony in ex-councillor Reimer always saying "we shouldn't tell the First Nations how to write their own language" when that's exactly what happened in the first place.

[chowhou]

Regardless of your position on proper writing, the fact is that without training, non-Squamish speakers will have no idea how to and, worse, no ability to speak some of the phonemes in the proper Squamish name "Iy'a'l'mexw".

y'
l'
xw

3/4 of the consonants here will be undecipherable for English speaking folks. (hint, they're not a "normal" y or l, and nothing close to an x).

I've taken a first year linguistics class, so I know what I'm talking about.

I fully expect the name in 2050 to be "Jericho Station (Iy'a'l'mexw/ʔəyalməxʷ)". Some people will say "wow what good reconciliation", some people will say "wow what a waste of space", everyone will call it Jericho Station.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Most English speakers can't say "Qin Shi Huang" either, not without looking like idiots. Pinyin gets them at least that far, and then a few corrections gets them to good-enough.

Is Squamish more difficult than Mandarin? Maybe. The point is that the FN can either have full authenticity or widespread adoption, but not both.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Most English speakers can't say "Qin Shi Huang" either, not without looking like idiots. Pinyin gets them at least that far, and then a few corrections gets them to good-enough.

Is Squamish more difficult than Mandarin? Maybe. The point is that the FN can either have full authenticity or widespread adoption, but not both.

Yeah I mostly agree with this, but there's no widespread accepted romanization without sacrifices, so full authenticity seems where we're going. (Not to mention the assumed requirement that 2 languages have to be respected here, not just one)

(Hence, my comment about "Jericho Station (Iy'a'l'mexw/ʔəyalməxʷ)" = "Jericho Station")

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Yeah I mostly agree with this, but there's no widespread accepted romanization without sacrifices, so full authenticity seems where we're going. (Not to mention the assumed requirement that 2 languages have to be respected here, not just one)

(Hence, my comment about "Jericho Station (Iy'a'l'mexw/ʔəyalməxʷ)" = "Jericho Station")

Fair points. Though Iy'a'l'mexw/ʔəyalməxʷ apparently refers to just the beach - the smart thing might be to pick a neutral, outsider-friendly word like they did with Lelem/leləm̓ at Acadia, and then it'd just be one name.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Methinks they want a future station near Blanca and 10th, given the language used in the report.

Originally Posted by svlt

.... The closer to 4th the better I think to allow the beach to be better accessed through public transit.

That's probably their intent, on both counts.

I could see a future station west of Blanca on the golf course lands on a diagonal swerve from Broadway to University Blvd.

Parks Board will have to create an entrance on 4th Ave with wider footpaths, etc.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I don't know what definition you have of "primarily" but I don't think you used it correctly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

oh yeah, i meant in the economic sense, business sense, governmental sense. like it or not, most things come out of the English speaking world. or the world that learns and can speak English as a second language.

i guess i should have specified.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by officedweller

That's probably their intent, on both counts.

I could see a future station west of Blanca on the golf course lands on a diagonal swerve from Broadway to University Blvd.

Parks Board will have to create an entrance on 4th Ave with wider footpaths, etc.

With respect to the logistics involved in getting a West 10th station, I wounder if the planners would consider getting creative with the alignment of the station platforms, given that they are likely to be underground. The stations up to MacDonald are going to be oriented east-west since the tunnel is parallel to Broadway. Beyond Alma, the stations are not in a straight line; since they are underground, the platforms can be built to help get from Jericho to West 10th.

It's easier with a diagram, so sorry for that, but if the Alma station platform is oriented northwest-southeast, it makes it easier to reach a Jericho lands station platform somewhere between Camosun and Discovery on a southwest-northeast alignment. Track heading west out of Jericho thus only needs one curve to reach West 10th instead of two.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Most English speakers can't say "Qin Shi Huang" either, not without looking like idiots. Pinyin gets them at least that far, and then a few corrections gets them to good-enough.

Is Squamish more difficult than Mandarin? Maybe. The point is that the FN can either have full authenticity or widespread adoption, but not both.

Well, no, but Anglicized Mandarin is at least more 'familiar'.
The meaning is the same in Squamish as in English, people don't say Deutschland for Germany just because it's more technically accurate despite meaning the same thing because people are going to butcher it.

Qin Shi Huang is a historical figure that most people in English-speaking nations barely even know beyond the statues in the cavern he made.

Originally Posted by officedweller

I don't see why it can't stay under Broadway as it goes past the Jericho lands and onwards to UBC,
then do the "swerve" just west of Blanca under the golf course lands to get to the University Blvd median
for an elevated portion (if they are using the median).


https://www.google.com/maps/place/4334+W...be35abd3!8m2!3d49.2644302!4d-123.2041989

I mean, maybe they should just finish the widening of West Broadway all the way to Chancellor Blvd and go elevated, and then just bypass the Blanca St. commercial district. It's not really that large anyways- you could build way more in the Jericho Lands.
It also gets you closer to the rest of the key points around the area (the beach and West Point Grey Park/School) and save you another ~$250m (~$1.95B to UBC, excluding the cost of land acquisition on Broadway between Timble and Blanca, which could be redeveloped as a high-density commercial district as a higher price) and a possible future station at Samasat.

The other issue is residents would probably resent it- but none of them wanted it anyways. This is also somewhat similar to how Expo bypassed the commercial districts on Kingsway to create its own commercial districts on the line itself (sort of).

Also, Jericho Lands is horribly underdeveloped as currently planned. Grosvenor Brentwood has a proposed floor-space-to-land-ratio of 0.33mil sq meters/acre, Jericho is 0.11. Lots of wasted potential with the current plans.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Good question. University Boulevard can definitely handle losing two lanes, but IIRC they want East Mall, and that's a lot more cramped.

Well, they did also say they were planning on demolishing Wesbrook to make room for it, so if they wanted the extra space they could just keep demolishing all the way to Thunderbird.
Beyond Wesbrook, there's actually only 2 blocks of (I think office or rental?) buildings that aren't parkades that would need to be demolished to widen East Mall.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

What would the issue be with a tunnel underneath those homes? Would vibration from the tunnel be felt during normal operation, during construction, or even at all?

Maybe. Then again, Point Grey residents were never very reasonable with the UBC Skytrain anyways.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

"Asian" people don't have a problem with the L sound. Japanese people do.

There are other Asian languages, such as Thai, that have the same issue. As far as I know it's not a problem for speakers of Indo-European languages.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Well, no, but Anglicized Mandarin is at least more 'familiar'.
The meaning is the same in Squamish as in English, people don't say Deutschland for Germany just because it's more technically accurate despite meaning the same thing because people are going to butcher it.

Qin Shi Huang is a historical figure that most people in English-speaking nations barely even know beyond the statues in the cavern he made.

Actually, we say "Germany" because the Romans said "Germania" - English borrows a lot from Latin.

Kongfuzi, Deng Xiaoping, Zhang Ziyi, the point remains: with Anglicization, curious Westerners can at least get it halfway right and be politely corrected.

Originally Posted by fredinno

I mean, maybe they should just finish the widening of West Broadway all the way to Chancellor Blvd and go elevated, and then just bypass the Blanca St. commercial district. It's not really that large anyways- you could build way more in the Jericho Lands.
It also gets you closer to the rest of the key points around the area (the beach and West Point Grey Park/School) and save you another ~$250m (~$1.95B to UBC, excluding the cost of land acquisition on Broadway between Timble and Blanca, which could be redeveloped as a high-density commercial district as a higher price) and a possible future station at Samasat.

The other issue is residents would probably resent it- but none of them wanted it anyways. This is also somewhat similar to how Expo bypassed the commercial districts on Kingsway to create its own commercial districts on the line itself (sort of).

Also, Jericho Lands is horribly underdeveloped as currently planned. Grosvenor Brentwood has a proposed floor-space-to-land-ratio of 0.33mil sq meters/acre, Jericho is 0.11. Lots of wasted potential with the current plans.

Those residents are voters - and a second four-lane road through Northwest NIMBYville and part of the UEL forest is an excellent way to get Colleen Hardwick's party and the Greens elected for a two-term majority. And you're not just bypassing Point Grey Village, but also University Village, Lelem and the UBC Bus Depot.

Again, blame the reactionaries who wanted mostly townhouses. OV-level density is already a fairly significant concession.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Well, they did also say they were planning on demolishing Wesbrook to make room for it, so if they wanted the extra space they could just keep demolishing all the way to Thunderbird.

You'd also have to demo Chem & Bio Engineering and either the Liaison Office or Advanced Wood Processing; if not, it's going to be a real tight squeeze. At least with Wesbrook they were planning to knock it down anyway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

There are other Asian languages, such as Thai, that have the same issue. As far as I know it's not a problem for speakers of Indo-European languages.

IIRC it's a Korean thing too.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

It's easier with a diagram, so sorry for that, but if the Alma station platform is oriented northwest-southeast, it makes it easier to reach a Jericho lands station platform somewhere between Camosun and Discovery on a southwest-northeast alignment. Track heading west out of Jericho thus only needs one curve to reach West 10th instead of two.

Doesn't that just move the second curve to the Jericho-Alma side?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Actually, we say "Germany" because the Romans said "Germania" - English borrows a lot from Latin.

Kongfuzi, Deng Xiaoping, Zhang Ziyi, the point remains: with Anglicization, curious Westerners can at least get it halfway right and be politely corrected.

The point is there's no point when they mean the same thing and both sides get what you're trying to say. It's like Turkey renaming itself to Turkiye.

Those residents are voters - and a second four-lane road through Northwest NIMBYville and part of the UEL forest is an excellent way to get Colleen Hardwick's party and the Greens elected for a two-term majority. And you're not just bypassing Point Grey Village, but also University Village, Lelem and the UBC Bus Depot.

Again, blame the reactionaries who wanted mostly townhouses. OV-level density is already a fairly significant concession.

You'd also have to demo Chem & Bio Engineering and either the Liaison Office or Advanced Wood Processing; if not, it's going to be a real tight squeeze. At least with Wesbrook they were planning to knock it down anyway.

More like a 4th arterial. There's already 3, and the existing plans consider doubling the population.
Adding a station on Jericho implies even more people will be moving in, clogging up the short section of Alma connecting to 10th Ave.


You don't seem to understand the route I'm trying to build- here it is:

The 'road' section would connect to Chancellor Blvd (as it was intended to do), and W Broadway past Alma is widened to have a wide central median to minimize shadowing and noise.

The difficulty here is that is destroys some of the UEL Forest and a couple SFHs around Jim Everett Park.

The other option would be to make a turn onto University Blvd around Blanca, but this would destroy the North-East quadrant of the University Golf Course, and likely make a station difficult around Acadia (lots of schools and potential redevelopment lands, along with existing stuff and Lelem) due to the curve on University Blvd.


I don't see how pissing off one small geographic area who already hated any redevelopment or Skytrain plans further means the Greens win a 2-term majority.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The point is there's no point when they mean the same thing and both sides get what you're trying to say. It's like Turkey renaming itself to Turkiye.

More like a 4th arterial. There's already 3, and the existing plans consider doubling the population.
Adding a station on Jericho implies even more people will be moving in, clogging up the short section of Alma connecting to 10th Ave.

The point is how the current status quo with an FN name and a "normal" name doesn't do much for reconciliation - maybe this would.

The difference between "around Jericho" and "through Jericho plus a SkyTrain viaduct" is likely a significant-enough difference to cause a headache for any politician involved. At any rate, surely full M-Line coverage and three bus stops on 4th (possibly one for the 44) is enough capacity? It's not like there's anywhere else to drive to in Point Grey.

Originally Posted by fredinno

You don't seem to understand the route I'm trying to build- here it is:
The 'road' section would connect to Chancellor Blvd (as it was intended to do), and W Broadway past Alma is widened to have a wide central median to minimize shadowing and noise.

The difficulty here is that is destroys some of the UEL Forest and a couple SFHs around Jim Everett Park.

The other option would be to make a turn onto University Blvd around Blanca, but this would destroy the North-East quadrant of the University Golf Course, and likely make a station difficult around Acadia (lots of schools and potential redevelopment lands, along with existing stuff and Lelem) due to the curve on University Blvd.

I don't see how pissing off one small geographic area who already hated any redevelopment or Skytrain plans further means the Greens win a 2-term majority.

Ah, so the one we all collectively brainstormed in high school. Much as I'd like to see it happen, I doubt the park trails and houses on Allison are negotiable... and we're still skipping Lelem and University Village.

As for the golf course, it's legally a golf course until 2083. I suppose they might be convinced to downgrade to a nine-hole course, but I suspect that any compensation would cancel out the savings from being elevated. So no SkyTrain there either.

"Green majority" as in the trees, not Point Grey. If Vancouver already shot down a four-lane Lions Gate for the same reason, the UEL will probably be much the same.