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  #281  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2022, 3:46 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Not at all. I think @eastvanmark's criticisms on the slow rezoning process, and anti-business practices like the view cone constraining downtown office space growth are spot on. I wish I knew more about the Vancouver business tax. Since I don't own a business or anything, I just feel like it's much better to listen to somebody who does.

While Calgary isn't my favorite city per se, @eastvanmark's observation of Calgary's liberal commercial zoning practices has merit. I've long felt the detached family zones just 10 minutes from downtown is unnecessarily choking the office market. I too would love to see everything north of king Edwards significantly upzoned to accommodate more commercial space and consumer pool.
My apologies. I didn't see your post from the previous pages. My point about property taxes was the disproportionate amount that commercial properties have to pay in Vancouver in relation to residential. In other cities, its a flat rate for all, or the difference between the two is negligible. And its hard to compare tax implications from 2 different jurisdictions, because the tax system in the US is way different than it is here. So on the surface a few percentage points may look more favorable, but when you drill down a bit, an entirely different picture may emerge.

I like your suggestion regarding rezoning that area. Always thought its was odd that we have our downtown core then right over the bridge we build single family homes. Then lament we about our lack of housing stock in the city.
     
     
  #282  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2022, 4:09 AM
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Always thought its was odd that we have our downtown core then right over the bridge we build single family homes. Then lament we about our lack of housing stock in the city.
It's stupid as hell. That's what the Broadway Plan is for.

Last edited by Migrant_Coconut; Mar 13, 2022 at 4:42 AM. Reason: Clarity
     
     
  #283  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2022, 4:19 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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What the viewcones limit is the prettiness of the skyline, which —, but does almost nothing for or against capacity; 47k square feet more or less (e.g. Jenga tower) isn't going to change jack squat, especially when compared to just adding 350k next door.



Any examples? Not trying to start anything, but I'm seeing that even the new Chinese places are significantly more yuppie-oriented than their predecessors. Old Chinatown just doesn't work anymore.

Like I said, the low vacancy rate would indicate that they're very much coming this way and waiting in line. Just need to keep building.
Ming's, Sai Woo, Daisy Garden (which re-opened the other week I believe), and my personal favorite that I'm waiting for, the legendary Ho Ho.
And yes, no question they are geared more to a modern crowd. I agree tht the old Chinatown did not work anymore. That is undoubtedly obvious to anyone who has eyes. There's a reason why the old places went out of business. The challenge is how to marry the modern with the historical. IT can and has happened in other jurisdictions, so no reason it can't happen here too.

They need to modernize their approaches; and they have, and will. Its just that as a city, they need to ensure that the legacy piece lives on. For example, the new owner of Ho Ho's wants to bring back the old neon sign back to its former glory, in its entirety. It will cost her over $100K to do so. And its just a sign. BUT its a draw, and will help bring people, and vibrancy to the area. Not on its own, but as a piece of a larger effort. So as they are bringing back that heritage, the city needs to help with this effort. A one time grant for items such as that sign, with increased foot patrols of uniformed officers, would go a long way to help revitalize the area. Again, been done in other cities, so no reason why it cant be done here too.
     
     
  #284  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2022, 4:31 AM
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Yeah, fair enough. That's kind of my original point though, that Chinatown's associations could likely have covered a fair chunk of that $100k if they'd decided to do that instead of waste resources on fighting developers. Many of them appear to not fall under your "anyone who has eyes" category - even if the City gets involved, chances are they end up stuck in the old fogeys' failed attempts to prop up old Chinatown, instead of helping create an old/new mix.
     
     
  #285  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2022, 4:44 AM
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That's true. The various associations down there have not done nearly enough either. They have misplaced their efforts like advocating for viaduct removal rather than providing a safe and feces free environment for potential customers to be in.
     
     
  #286  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2022, 3:01 PM
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Its doing alright. Not extremely well. The statement was made that Vancouver is the strongest office market in the country. That statement is false. The figures provided actually show that. Don't know what else to do about that.
What is your definition of what makes the strongest office market? You seem to differ on that than other posters here.
     
     
  #287  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2022, 4:32 PM
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What is your definition of what makes the strongest office market? You seem to differ on that than other posters here.
I think it's purely size. Toronto has a bigger market, and a bigger volume under construction and supposedly pipeline (no sources offered) so that makes the a stronger market. Therefore the relative performance isn't important. And positive absorption of a million sq. ft. last year is a bad thing, and negative absorption of 1.7m sq. ft. is good.

We're actually under a third of Greater Toronto's size for office space (49m vs 170m) and in the core (30m vs 95m) so proportionally we are performing better currently. But the numbers there are bigger, (including the vacancy rate, which is 1% higher Downtown, and nearly double in the GTA at 13.7% vs 7.0% in Metro Vancouver) and that's apparently all that matters.
     
     
  #288  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2022, 9:46 PM
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I think it's purely size. Toronto has a bigger market, and a bigger volume under construction and supposedly pipeline (no sources offered) so that makes the a stronger market. Therefore the relative performance isn't important. And positive absorption of a million sq. ft. last year is a bad thing, and negative absorption of 1.7m sq. ft. is good.

We're actually under a third of Greater Toronto's size for office space (49m vs 170m) and in the core (30m vs 95m) so proportionally we are performing better currently. But the numbers there are bigger, (including the vacancy rate, which is 1% higher Downtown, and nearly double in the GTA at 13.7% vs 7.0% in Metro Vancouver) and that's apparently all that matters.
Toronto is a head office city, Vancouver isn't. We can't and shouldn't expect to compete with them. It would be great to get more home grown companies going here, but the City itself is only a piece of that puzzle.

RBC isn't moving their HQ.
     
     
  #289  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2022, 3:14 AM
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Whatever happens this election, we should all celebrate not seeing Hardwick in the news again for at least another four years.


Can't wait to see her lose in the mayoral race and be tossed out of council.
     
     
  #290  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2022, 3:25 AM
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has she declared her mayoral candidacy yet? I have a feeling that she will come to realize her mayoral bid isn't viable but still try to stay on as a counselor.
     
     
  #291  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2022, 4:17 AM
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has she declared her mayoral candidacy yet? I have a feeling that she will come to realize her mayoral bid isn't viable but still try to stay on as a counselor.
Her nomination as TEAM's candidate happened tonight: https://twitter.com/fabulavancouver/status/1503124751832608770

Looks like she's got quite the diverse set of supporters. There are old white men AND old white women!
     
     
  #292  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2022, 4:43 PM
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I bet Hardwick still calls millennials "young adults"...

Is it just me, but does TEAM's housing platform read as if the status quo, minus rezonings, is fine, but the City also isn't doing enough? I am going to really hate hearing in the news her go on and on about "de-stabalized land values from rezonings". I want someone to debate her on how a single family home that cannot be rezoned is somehow stable at $1.5 million.
     
     
  #293  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2022, 9:38 PM
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I bet Hardwick still calls millennials "young adults"...

Is it just me, but does TEAM's housing platform read as if the status quo, minus rezonings, is fine, but the City also isn't doing enough? I am going to really hate hearing in the news her go on and on about "de-stabalized land values from rezonings". I want someone to debate her on how a single family home that cannot be rezoned is somehow stable at $1.5 million.
The paradox of being an opposition member who likes the status quo: you have to rage against and for the machine at the same time. Doublethink like that would've broken lesser minds.
     
     
  #294  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 5:13 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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What is your definition of what makes the strongest office market? You seem to differ on that than other posters here.
One with the highest construction rates, healthy supply, affordable and varied rental rates, favourable tax structure, absorption capacity, total amount of space on a per capita basis. That’s what most people consider a success. Other posters on here only look at one variable. That’s the equivalent of looking at a hockey goalie’s stats and just reading they’ve made the most saves; therefore they are the best but neglecting the other statistic right in the next column that states they also allow the most goals. A holistic approach is needed.

New York City has never had a vacancy rate below 5 percent close to the last half century. Vancouver has; on more than one occasion. Can anyone with a straight face claim our office market is stronger than theirs? Cause it’s not, and never has been.
     
     
  #295  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 5:39 AM
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One with the highest construction rates, healthy supply, affordable and varied rental rates, favourable tax structure, absorption capacity, total amount of space on a per capita basis. That’s what most people consider a success. Other posters on here only look at one variable. That’s the equivalent of looking at a hockey goalie’s stats and just reading they’ve made the most saves; therefore they are the best but neglecting the other statistic right in the next column that states they also allow the most goals. A holistic approach is needed.

New York City has never had a vacancy rate below 5 percent close to the last half century. Vancouver has; on more than one occasion. Can anyone with a straight face claim our office market is stronger than theirs? Cause it’s not, and never has been.
New York isn't in Canada, so it's not relevant, but it has a rapidly increasing vacancy rate that's worrying brokers there. The suggestion was that Vancouver's market is currently the strongest in Canada - not historically. In past decades developers were reluctant to build without pre-leasing, so there was a distinct cycle where vacancy rates could get as low as 2% before they'd build anything, and would then see it rise (to over 15% in the 80s, and again in the 90s). For the time being there are several spec buildings with limited, or even no pre-leasing, yet there's confidence to build. New developers like Hines and Allied REIT are coming into the market too, as developers, which is a vote of confidence in the Vancouver market. Unlike Calgary, for example, we have a much broader range of businesses occupying commercial space.

There were several different aspects of the market listed (absorption, construction activity, pipeline, vacancy) - not just one. And last year our business taxes were the lowest in Canada. This year they're higher again, but still noteably lower than Toronto. That's not new: it was the lowest in 2010 too (in the world - not just in Canada). Maybe that's why Amazon have taken a million sq. ft. here despite the city deciding not to offer financial incentives for their 'HQ2' program.
     
     
  #296  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 6:37 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Her nomination as TEAM's candidate happened tonight: https://twitter.com/fabulavancouver/status/1503124751832608770

Looks like she's got quite the diverse set of supporters. There are old white men AND old white women!
Assembling a real dream TEAM aren’t they?

The only good news from this is she will lose so we won’t have to deal with her for a few years
     
     
  #297  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 7:11 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Her nomination as TEAM's candidate happened tonight: https://twitter.com/fabulavancouver/status/1503124751832608770

Looks like she's got quite the diverse set of supporters. There are old white men AND old white women!
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
New York isn't in Canada, so it's not relevant, but it has a rapidly increasing vacancy rate that's worrying brokers there. The suggestion was that Vancouver's market is currently the strongest in Canada - not historically. In past decades developers were reluctant to build without pre-leasing, so there was a distinct cycle where vacancy rates could get as low as 2% before they'd build anything, and would then see it rise (to over 15% in the 80s, and again in the 90s). For the time being there are several spec buildings with limited, or even no pre-leasing, yet there's confidence to build. New developers like Hines and Allied REIT are coming into the market too, as developers, which is a vote of confidence in the Vancouver market. Unlike Calgary, for example, we have a much broader range of businesses occupying commercial space.

There were several different aspects of the market listed (absorption, construction activity, pipeline, vacancy) - not just one. And last year our business taxes were the lowest in Canada. This year they're higher again, but still noteably lower than Toronto. That's not new: it was the lowest in 2010 too (in the world - not just in Canada). Maybe that's why Amazon have taken a million sq. ft. here despite the city deciding not to offer financial incentives for their 'HQ2' program.
Doesn’t matter which country it’s in, the same principles apply. New York is currently going through a blip on the radar, but they will return to more “historic “ levels soon enough. I get what the suggestion is; it’s just not accurate the moment you measure more than one variable. Vacancy rates should NEVER get to 2 percent; let alone the under 1 that we have experienced here. If that does ever happen, steps need to be take right away to get more supply through the pipeline as Toronto did when their market went to such silly levels once.

Again, already dealt with the issue of “business tax” rates and issues with that. Calculations for such lists vary wildly. For a contrast, CD Howe identified Saskatoon as having the lowest business taxes in the country. On a side note, Calgary came in ahead of Vancouver on that one too. Again they too left out a number of items that equally affect business.
And again that article from BIV once again takes the usual Vancouver spin to speak to percentages rather than real numbers. When a tenant is looking to occupy a space, they want hard numbers; not percentages. Just as any potential residential renter can care less if a landlord tells them that the rent is 1% of the total value of the home. What is import to them is the actual hard number. City of Vancouver is famous for trying this — to justify endless property tax increase because ya if you look at other places based on percentages, we’re a bargain!

As for H2 the city’s location and cheap workforce were much more attractive than other areas. Vancouver didn’t even put in a bid for H2 cause they knew they would get eliminated PDQ. Toronto put up a bid, and was shortlisted, but even they could not compete with big US markets and what they were offering. Calgary didn’t and it was front page news and had the community questioning itself. Vancouver failed forward when the winning bid backed out and we got a bunch of those extra jobs, while the rest were spread out to other cities. Most of the favourable tax environment here is a provincial initiative; not a civic one. Your own article identifies that.
     
     
  #298  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 3:25 PM
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New York City has never had a vacancy rate below 5 percent close to the last half century. Vancouver has; on more than one occasion. Can anyone with a straight face claim our office market is stronger than theirs? Cause it’s not, and never has been.
If that's your benchmark, it's ridiculous.
     
     
  #299  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 3:40 PM
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Doesn’t matter which country it’s in, the same principles apply. New York is currently going through a blip on the radar, but they will return to more “historic “ levels soon enough. I get what the suggestion is; it’s just not accurate the moment you measure more than one variable. Vacancy rates should NEVER get to 2 percent; let alone the under 1 that we have experienced here. If that does ever happen, steps need to be take right away to get more supply through the pipeline as Toronto did when their market went to such silly levels once.

Again, already dealt with the issue of “business tax” rates and issues with that. Calculations for such lists vary wildly. For a contrast, CD Howe identified Saskatoon as having the lowest business taxes in the country. On a side note, Calgary came in ahead of Vancouver on that one too. Again they too left out a number of items that equally affect business.
And again that article from BIV once again takes the usual Vancouver spin to speak to percentages rather than real numbers. When a tenant is looking to occupy a space, they want hard numbers; not percentages. Just as any potential residential renter can care less if a landlord tells them that the rent is 1% of the total value of the home. What is import to them is the actual hard number. City of Vancouver is famous for trying this — to justify endless property tax increase because ya if you look at other places based on percentages, we’re a bargain!

As for H2 the city’s location and cheap workforce were much more attractive than other areas. Vancouver didn’t even put in a bid for H2 cause they knew they would get eliminated PDQ. Toronto put up a bid, and was shortlisted, but even they could not compete with big US markets and what they were offering. Calgary didn’t and it was front page news and had the community questioning itself. Vancouver failed forward when the winning bid backed out and we got a bunch of those extra jobs, while the rest were spread out to other cities. Most of the favourable tax environment here is a provincial initiative; not a civic one. Your own article identifies that.
Every time you post there's another example of something you believe, that isn't true. This exchange has so little to do with the Civic Election that I'm not posting another response here, for the sake of all the posters that want to debate the thread topic.

Vancouver City Council can't directly 'make' the development industry respond by building new office space in a timely manner when vacancy rates start falling to historic low percentages, unless they're refusing to allow proposals to be approved, or they're restricting where offices can be built. Neither is true. For the past decade, since the Metro Core study, zoning has changed to increase the amount of space allowed to be built, expanded the places where it can be built, and encouraged rezonings where it's deemed appropriate (in terms of transit connections) to allow higher densities. That has led to more being built, in a range of sized units that cover the potential demand from small to larger floorplate. The economy has been growing too, and the new companies coming in are often locating in those spaces. Even some established businesses are even choosing to move from a suburban location to the Metro Core (like Best Buy moving their Canadian HQ to W 6th).

Vancouver did bid for Amazon's HQ2. It's here. It's easy to see what taxes the cities are responsible for. The City of Vancouver commercial tax levy is $4.91 per $1,000 of assessed value, and the total tax payable with all the other taxes added - Provincial schools tax, Translink, Metro Vancouver etc is $9.97 per $1,000 of assessed value. In Toronto it's $12.30 per $1,000. Calgary is $20.61 per $1,000 of assessed value, and has risen for businesses more than in most cities over the past several years.
     
     
  #300  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 5:23 PM
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Re H2: the reason we would never have got it isn't a lack of business, it's because we're barely three hours away from Seattle. The entire point of a second headquarters is to cover a different part of the region/market from the first one - one almost next door is just a redundant cost.
     
     
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