CHICAGO | General Discussions

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i'm certainly glad that eyesore is gone, but right on cue at the NE corner of western/belmont we get one of those craptacular single-story suburban-style retail developments that keeps streets like western as auto-sewery as possible.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9389.../data=!3m1!1e3



as soon as chicago kills one god-awful strip mall, it builds another one somewhere else.

we'll never learn.

Anyone driven through that intersection at night? It's hilarious how many street lights there are all close together.

Biking in that area is rough. Hoping the river run path gets extended. I bought groceries at the Mariano's on Western and then took them back home biking on the river run path. It would be nice to go further south.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

The civic infrastructure in NY is really in a league of it's own if we're being honest. The Grand Concourse is essentially the same amount of ambition as something like the beaux arts Wacker Drive, except it's about five times as long and built not in the central business district for the world to see, but for what was at that time a growing middle class neighborhood for people "moving on up" and out of overcrowded areas like the Lower East Side. Same level of impressiveness goes for Riverside Drive.

One of my cousins grew up there in the 50s and 60s - in a doorman building. She said it used to be really a grand area.

On another side of my family, my direct ancestors used to own multiple intersections of land in the Bronx on 3rd ave. I found a record of my 3rd great grandfather buying land in The Bronx in 1868 when it wasn't part of NYC and was part of Westchester County and pretty rural. There were actual farms there. My 2nd great grandfather bought tons of property/land all over the Bronx. He must have been a straight up NIMBY though because he tried to sue the 3rd Ave elevated railway to stop them from putting a station right next to one of his stores. He lost. Absolutely true about middle class and even upper class. This side of my family was considered upper class NYC back then with close cousins marrying into some NYC elite families but some had moved to the Bronx even with some status like that LOL. I think it was at a time when most of Manhattan was really dirty and The Bronx just like parts of Brooklyn and Queens were considered more civilized.

The Bronx used to be completely different back in the day, it's pretty insane. There are a lot of "hidden gems" (to some people) there.


One of the reasons I like West Loop is due to its industrial built environment already which makes it easier to maintain a more urban environment or develop/expand to it. It makes it easier to have urban areas where even side streets have ground floor retail/commercial too. We visited NYC for the first time since moving away in the fall and I was thinking about this in some areas of Manhattan. They were able to really turn some of that industrial stock into some super thriving districts of another kind after awhile instead of tearing them down. It always kills me that Chicago doesn't have an area like Lower East Side, East Village, etc but I think some of that spirit in terms of side streets with retail/commercial is being achieved in the West Loop/Fulton Market. It's great to see. The entire city doesn't need to be like that but it's great to see some new areas emerging with that makeup.

[Klippenstein]

There's a lot of potential for that intersection with those two remaining lots of substantial size. I really hope they break the trend in that area and more urban, mixed use development starts pushing North from there because there's a lot of parking lots to kill for the next mile to the North.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

new york has a lot of wide arterial streets just like chicago.

they just don't allow them to be lined with nearly as much under-used, single-story, auto-centric suburban-style crap like chicago does:



New York, New York:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7624...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6791...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7372...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7560...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8372...7i16384!8i8192


i could go on and on, but you get the point.

Can someone please name off the wide arterial streets in the city? I can think of Ashland, Western, of course LSD, Roosevelt, Michigan, parts of Irving Park, parts of North, bits and pieces of Fullerton, and then some major ones in the South Side like Stony Island and a few others (I'm not as familiar with the south side outside of Hyde Park and nearby areas). All in all, not exactly a plethora of wide arterials for a large city like Chicago.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Handro]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Can someone please name off the wide arterial streets in the city? I can think of Ashland, Western, of course LSD, Roosevelt, Michigan, parts of Irving Park, parts of North, bits and pieces of Fullerton, and then some major ones in the South Side like Stony Island and a few others (I'm not as familiar with the south side outside of Hyde Park and nearby areas). All in all, not exactly a plethora of wide arterials for a large city like Chicago.

Aaron (Glowrock)

Ogden, part of Milwaukee (far northside), Cicero, Harlem, not to mention lots of roads in and around the Loop... but you're right there aren't many that extend for long distances either N-S or E-W.

Steely Dan hit the nail on the head when he pointed out the width of the street isn't the problem (operating under the assumption that lack of urbanity is a problem), but rather how wide(ish) arterial streets are activated. I was in Milan a few months ago--a spectacularly dense, urban city, and there were plenty of wide roads outside the city center. Some wider than we have in Chicago (imagine a 5 lane roundabout...). But not once did I not feel like I was in a bustling urban center.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Handro

Steely Dan hit the nail on the head when he pointed out the width of the street isn't the problem (operating under the assumption that lack of urbanity is a problem), but rather how wide(ish) arterial streets are activated. I was in Milan a few months ago--a spectacularly dense, urban city, and there were plenty of wide roads outside the city center. Some wider than we have in Chicago (imagine a 5 lane roundabout...). But not once did I not feel like I was in a bustling urban center.

yep.

as i said earlier, our major 4-lane thoroughfares don't have to suck, we just allow them to in many places.

imagine if western looked like this for miles on end: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9648...7i16384!8i8192

now, absolutely no one is gonna ever mistake the above scene for greenwich village or north end boston or whatever intact 18th/19th century old school "tiny street" urbanism, but it would still be light year beyond what we've allowed large stretches of our city's major arterial streets to deteriorate into.

[OrdoSeclorum]

When talking about street widths, I often like to point out North avenue. Here is a block east of Western: https://goo.gl/maps/EETfpkxqLPfHqRY77

And here is is a block west of Western: https://goo.gl/maps/QzxvY5VF1kAeE2bL8

Cars don't evaporate as they drive east over these two blocks. It's not like fire trucks can't get to Bucktown. The wider road simply makes everything suck real bad for no benefit.

[the urban politician]

Ashland is far better than Western. Miles of good urbanism on both sides, for the most part.

Western is getting better, slowly, and is doing REALLY well in some areas while being more of an auto hellhole in others.

I think Ashland is pretty good, actually

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

When talking about street widths, I often like to point out North avenue. Here is a block east of Western: https://goo.gl/maps/EETfpkxqLPfHqRY77

And here is is a block west of Western: https://goo.gl/maps/QzxvY5VF1kAeE2bL8

Cars don't evaporate as they drive east over these two blocks. It's not like fire trucks can't get to Bucktown. The wider road simply makes everything suck real bad for no benefit.

Fullerton does the same thing around Kedzie. I lived in the area and it is noticeable how much faster and aggressive people drive as the road widens.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Ashland is far better than Western. Miles of good urbanism on both sides, for the most part.

ashland is definitely better than western for the most part.

but it has its stretches of crap too:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8351...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7854...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8658...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9059...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9360...7i16384!8i8192



and anytime any major chicago street gets near an expressway, man do they tend to get depressing and pedestrian-hostile.

stupid fucking traffic engineers.

[the urban politician]

^ You're depressing me, man. Yeah that shit all sucks big time. But luckily MUCH of that corridor (including areas with lots of new infill) are way better than that.

My 2 least favorite are the nightmare near Ashland and Division, as well as the crapola near the IMD. But the IMD is a grade A shithole of urban planning anyhow.

[marothisu]

I agree those numbers are a bit high but they appear to actually go with the reality of some places...

Percent change in employed population by MSA Jan to June 2021 for QCEW

- Las Vegas: +8.16%
- San Diego: +6.17%
- Honolulu: +5.94%
- Los Angeles: +5.26%
- Boston: +5.24%
- San Francisco: +5.2%
- Chicago: +5.18%
- Austin: +5.06%
- NYC: +4.84%
- Denver: +4.74%
- Minneapolis: +4.74%
- Portland: +4.71%
- Raleigh: +4.69%
- Sacramento: +4.67%
- Detroit: +4.67%
- San Jose: +4.41%
- Pittsburgh: +4.18%
- Seattle: +4.15%
- Milwaukee: +3.7%
- Philadelphia: +3.55%
- Cleveland: +3.54%
- San Antonio: +3.52%
- DC: +3.38%
- Baltimore: +3.13%
- Dallas: +3.03%
- Cincinnati: +3.03%
- Nashville: +2.98%
- Houston: +2.87%
- St. Louis: +2.77%
- Virginia Beach: +2.74%
- Indianapolis : +2.67%
- Orlando: +2.67%
- Atlanta: +2.33%
- Columbus, OH: +2.12%
- Kansas City: +2.09%
- Miami: +1.11%
- Louisville: +1%
- Jacksonville: +0.94%
- Tampa: +0.89%
- Memphis: +0.81%
- Phoenix: -0.11%

This Jan to June for 2021 had the highest pct increase of any Jan to June going back to 2001 (as far as the data goes). In 2019 it was +3.7% which is how Milwaukee did in 2021's period..

[the urban politician]

^ Impressive. But more info needed

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

ashland is definitely better than western for the most part.

but it has its stretches of crap too:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8351...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7854...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8658...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9059...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9360...7i16384!8i8192



and anytime any major chicago street gets near an expressway, man do they tend to get depressing and pedestrian-hostile.

stupid fucking traffic engineers.

All these are bad, but that Wicker Park Lowes is the worst offender because a couple hundred feet south you have a wonderful vibrant Brooklyn-esque urban street on Milwaukee, then you make a turn and see...that. Bulldoze that whole lot and store.

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ You're depressing me, man. Yeah that shit all sucks big time. But luckily MUCH of that corridor (including areas with lots of new infill) are way better than that.

My 2 least favorite are the nightmare near Ashland and Division, as well as the crapola near the IMD. But the IMD is a grade A shithole of urban planning anyhow.

It's sad that HOUSTON'S Medical District is more urban than Chicago's. Fucking Houston lmao. Luckily it seems they realized that whole area is a urban planning disaster and they laid out a long term plan to fix it. Those new apartments springing up in that area are decent.

https://www.scb.com/project/illinois...t-master-plan/

[the urban politician]

^ Then it’s time to move to Houston to be a part of all the excitement, I guess

[Rizzo]

Nothing is worse than a wide street over an expressway intersecting with frontage roads…at an angle. If it’s not bad enough, now you need to cross an even longer angled crosswalk and visibility to drivers is substantially reduced. The Ogden overpass would be better as a wider deck and park, turned into some sort of traffic circle of the same size as Detroit’s downtown campus martius, where the dimensions and turns are enough to slow down drivers and it’s not a nightmare to cross as a pedestrian like the kinds of circles you see in rural suburban areas…or too large like Logan square where people take the corners at high speeds.

[Tom In Chicago]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

It's sad that HOUSTON'S Medical District is more urban than Chicago's. Fucking Houston lmao. Luckily it seems they realized that whole area is a urban planning disaster and they laid out a long term plan to fix it. Those new apartments springing up in that area are decent.

https://www.scb.com/project/illinois...t-master-plan/

Houston's Medical District is merely a large collection of hospitals all in one place with absolutely no street appeal. . . the only way it is "more urban" than Chicago's is simply because it has more buildings. . . it's one street of bland architecture and, just like any medical district, no-one goes there because they want to go there. . .

. . .

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Then it’s time to move to Houston to be a part of all the excitement, I guess

I'm good here, thanks

[sentinel]

Also, unrelated, but I'm an idiot, I have not realized until now that ChicagoYimby has a forum, like SSP??! Lots of good stuff there, and I think I see a lot of the usual suspects in the forum here that also contribute there.