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  #3541  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 4:48 PM
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Streetcar tracks running down the center can make a street kinda wide.
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  #3542  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowrock View Post
Given that Ashland is one of the only relatively wide N-S arteries in the city (Western of course is another, not sure of any others quite frankly)
Cicero Ave is another one, but its pretty far west, and in areas of the city that are much less dense and more car centric than most sections that Western and Ashland traverse.

I agree with the rest of your post. While Western and Ashland can suck from a pedestrian perspective (especially Western, so much truck traffic), they are absolutely necessary to keep things moving. Not just from a commuting perspective, but also logistics such as deliveries for restaurants, grocers, warehouses, etc. They are vital infrastructure for getting around town and transit is not an option for a lot of the traffic they move.
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  #3543  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 5:41 PM
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Maybe the cramped conditions will spur them to upgrade? Whether that means they sell the parcel and move to a bigger office, or rebuild their current building into something larger and more urban.
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  #3544  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 5:58 PM
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i tend to agree that the generally wide auto-seweriness of major arterials like western and ashland is likely to remain for the foreseeable future.

but the city could do itself a lot of favors if it would stop approving so many goddamn auto-centric suburban-style developments along them.



up in my neck of the woods in lincoln square, a lot of the old used car lots have been replaced by new, more urban developments, like this:

before: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9657...7i13312!8i6656

after: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9657...7i16384!8i8192



but then just a mile or so down western in north center, this newish suburban disaster was built a number of years ago.

before: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9481...7i13312!8i6656

after: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9481...7i16384!8i8192

yeah, it got rid of one of those grimey old used car lots, but come on, we can (SHOULD!) do so much better than that replacement crap.



in places where intact vintage construction still remains along auto-sewers like western, it's not nearly so soul-suckingly awful:

spin around: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9648...7i16384!8i8192

i mean, look at that. all 4 corners held by decent enough pre-war city buildings.

our major thoroughfares don't have to suck. we just allow them to in many places.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Feb 23, 2022 at 6:15 PM.
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  #3545  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
but then just a mile or so down western in north center, this newish suburban disaster was built a number of years ago.

what the fuck: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9481...7i16384!8i8192
100% agree, that whole elston/clybourn corridor near the river and north center/roscoe village are the worst offenders. I'm from Atlanta, which is peak r/suburbanhell, but atleast in in-town neighborhoods, yeah there'd be surface parking, but the new retail would be mixed use with apartments on top.

I wonder whose the alderman that okay'd this, it's a nasty look. Bulldoze that whole section of the street, both sides. Chicago can do much better. No bike lanes, just straight up suburban development. Reminds me of this tweet.

https://twitter.com/JGrantGlover/sta...45272009723912
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  #3546  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 6:13 PM
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I think the density of buildings on these arterial roads just needs to be a bit higher. Being on a wide road enclosed by 5-8 story buildings feels completely different than one with 2-4 story buildings.
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  #3547  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by left of center View Post
I agree with the rest of your post. While Western and Ashland can suck from a pedestrian perspective (especially Western, so much truck traffic), they are absolutely necessary to keep things moving. Not just from a commuting perspective, but also logistics such as deliveries for restaurants, grocers, warehouses, etc. They are vital infrastructure for getting around town and transit is not an option for a lot of the traffic they move.
We should have the infrastructure we need. And better is better. But when I read these kind of comments my eye starts twitching.

There are thousands of cities in the world that simply don't accommodate semi-truck traffic. We can but we don't need to. There are costs but there are also benefits. The most popular, attractive, vibrant, in-demand and desirable parts of Chicago--or Washington D.C. or Seattle or Boston or wherever--have streets where one car can barely manage to go over 20mph on a one-way street and apartment towers and single family homes on the same block were built without parking.

We can make different choices. But we need to constantly acknowledge that building codes and laws simply make it illegal to build Lincoln Park, Wicker Park, Lakeview, Georgetown or Greenwich Village anywhere in Chicago. We should change that. If we want different outcomes we can simply take places that have better outcomes as examples. It doesn't need to be Paris or Barcelona as an example--almost every city that puts people first is more desirable than one that accommodates cars first. If the people who only want to drive at 45mph in my city stay home, let them. Let's see what happens.

No neighborhood has ever gotten better when they tore down housing and widened a road or built a highway. No neighborhood has ever gotten better when they tore down housing or retail and built parking. The equation is reversible. Boston and San Francisco removed big roads and everything nearby got better and the city functions better.
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  #3548  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 6:19 PM
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Also kinda laughed at Chicago streets being called narrow....I mean yeah compared to suburban cities like Houston, LA, Dallas, and Atlanta I guess they're narrow (We sure as hell shouldn't be following their lead). Chicago streets are wide AF compared to New York, Boston, Philly, SF, DC, let alone European cities. I was just in Philly in October and absolutely loved the abundance of narrow streets, really gave a sense of place and belonging unlike Western Ave which feels like shit to pedestrians.

And yeah yeah I know the Chicago Fire made the streets wider and all, but you get my point.
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  #3549  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 6:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegoatman View Post
Chicago streets are wide AF compared to New York,
new york has a lot of wide arterial streets just like chicago.

they just don't allow them to be lined with nearly as much under-used, single-story, auto-centric suburban-style crap like chicago does:



New York, New York:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7624...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6791...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7372...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7560...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8372...7i16384!8i8192


i could go on and on, but you get the point.
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  #3550  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 6:58 PM
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^ All things considered, Chicago isn't doing nearly as bad as some of the people here complaining are saying. And things are only getting better.

Btw, I've always found Grand Concourse in the Bronx to be a fascinating boulevard. As is Queens Boulevard. It would be neat for Chicago to have an avenue like one of those
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  #3551  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thegoatman View Post
And yeah yeah I know the Chicago Fire made the streets wider and all, but you get my point.
The fire didn’t have much effect on the streets.

Western cities were platted with wider streets from the start.


Surveyors basically took a chain stretched it out to its max length of 66 ft and designated the streets.

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohisto...ges/11175.html
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  #3552  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
new york has a lot of wide arterial streets just like chicago.

they just don't allow them to be lined with nearly as much under-used, single-story, auto-centric suburban-style crap like chicago does:



New York, New York:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7624...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6791...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7372...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7560...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8372...7i16384!8i8192


i could go on and on, but you get the point.
Lol this is one of my favorite things. Some people go visit NYC or even live there and only stay in lower Manhattan and think that's how the entire city is and even Manhattan alone. All the avenues in Manhattan are 3 or even sometimes 4 lanes of traffic and no different than downtown Chicago. Our former street in UWS was basically the same as any street in Lincoln Park.

Yeah lower Manhattan is lower but people really need.to stop thinking lower Manhattan is how all of Manhattan and definitely need to stop thinking that's how the rest of NYC is.
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  #3553  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 7:42 PM
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just got done reading this article in Archpaper...not sure how reliable the data is on this infographic given one of the sources is from 1989, but nevertheless i suspect NY/Chicago are more similar than different in many respects

https://www.archdaily.com/976607/wha...merican-cities

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  #3554  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 9:23 PM
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remember when Western Ave had the highway overpass/flyover monster at Belmont?

that was torn down just a few years ago, turning a quasi-highway back into a city street

2009:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/We...!1BCgIgARICCAI

2021:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/We...!1BCgIgARICCAI
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  #3555  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 9:35 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by glowrock View Post
Additional transit service is greatly needed, but a road diet along Ashland isn't a big priority, at least IMO.
We need to take advantage of the Boulevard system with BRT lanes. Underutilized, wide roads that connect lots of different L lines.
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  #3556  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by west-town-brad View Post
remember when Western Ave had the highway overpass/flyover monster at Belmont?

that was torn down just a few years ago, turning a quasi-highway back into a city street

2009:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/We...!1BCgIgARICCAI

2021:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/We...!1BCgIgARICCAI
i'm certainly glad that eyesore is gone, but right on cue at the NE corner of western/belmont we get one of those craptacular single-story suburban-style retail developments that keeps streets like western as auto-sewery as possible.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9389.../data=!3m1!1e3



as soon as chicago kills one god-awful strip mall, it builds another one somewhere else.

we'll never learn.
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  #3557  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 10:25 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
just got done reading this article in Archpaper...not sure how reliable the data is on this infographic given one of the sources is from 1989, but nevertheless i suspect NY/Chicago are more similar than different in many respects

https://www.archdaily.com/976607/wha...merican-cities

I've seen this chart a dozen times and it simply can't be right. New York is twice as dense as Chicago (or more) but they are neighbors on this chart. Munich is less dense than Paris but is shown as significantly more dense on this chart. It doesn't make any sense from 40 feet away.
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  #3558  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 10:28 PM
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^ yeah, that chart isn't coming close to passing the sniff test.

My guess is that its creator let the agenda drive the data, rather than the other way around.

If we dug into it, we'd probably find all kinds of apples being compared to zucchinis.
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  #3559  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2022, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post

Btw, I've always found Grand Concourse in the Bronx to be a fascinating boulevard. As is Queens Boulevard. It would be neat for Chicago to have an avenue like one of those
The civic infrastructure in NY is really in a league of it's own if we're being honest. The Grand Concourse is essentially the same amount of ambition as something like the beaux arts Wacker Drive, except it's about five times as long and built not in the central business district for the world to see, but for what was at that time a growing middle class neighborhood for people "moving on up" and out of overcrowded areas like the Lower East Side. Same level of impressiveness goes for Riverside Drive.
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  #3560  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2022, 12:50 AM
thegoatman thegoatman is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i'm certainly glad that eyesore is gone, but right on cue at the NE corner of western/belmont we get one of those craptacular single-story suburban-style retail developments that keeps streets like western as auto-sewery as possible.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9389.../data=!3m1!1e3



as soon as chicago kills one god-awful strip mall, it builds another one somewhere else.

we'll never learn.
awful. That whole intersection and street is just soul crushing. How can the leaders of Chicago and the state say they're pro-sustainable development when bs like this keeps getting erected.
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