Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Vin

If they choose to experiment with it in the first place, they should know that there will be a chance of addiction. Therefore they still choose to become addicts, unless the person in question is forced to take drugs at gun point, or prescribed medication for an ailment leads the person to be hooked. I would say the majority of addicts today are first exposed to "recreational" drugs.

Peyote, marijuana, mushrooms, that's not what gets you to heroin and opioids. It just doesn't work like that.

I take it you have little or no experience with psychedelics?

Legal, pharmaceutical opioids have produced far more addicts than any naturally grown psychedelic plant.

How about this;

You are a teenager. Your step father is abusive. He beats you and often tries to assault you sexually. If not for him, you have no roof overhead. You try to reach out for help, but none is available. Not from government, not from your mother that works all day and into the evening. You eventually find an escape from your constant state of anxiety in a little elongated pill called Xanax, that a good 1/4 of your class mates and acquaintances have access to anyway, and use themselves. Its pharmaceutical, and accessible, how bad can it be?

This is just one way how addiction starts without someone being a "bad" person.

This isn't black and white.

But at the same time as above being true, its also an absolute joke and mockery that someone can be arrested 100+ times and released.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Changing City

That's unlikely. You and s211 seem to think the Pivot Legal Society is a law firm. It isn't; it's a campaigning non-profit concerned with homelessness and housing justice, sex work law reform, drug policy, and policing and police accountability. It accomplishes this through strategic litigation and public advocacy directed at government.

Where's the kool-aid character when you need him !!! Or did you drink him dry?

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by rofina

Peyote, marijuana, mushrooms, that's not what gets you to heroin and opioids. It just doesn't work like that.

I take it you have little or no experience with psychedelics?

Legal, pharmaceutical opioids have produced far more addicts than any naturally grown psychedelic plant.

How about this;

You are a teenager. Your step father is abusive. He beats you and often tries to assault you sexually. If not for him, you have no roof overhead. You try to reach out for help, but none is available. Not from government, not from your mother that works all day and into the evening. You eventually find an escape from your constant state of anxiety in a little elongated pill called Xanax, that a good 1/4 of your class mates and acquaintances have access to anyway, and use themselves. Its pharmaceutical, and accessible, how bad can it be?

This is just one way how addiction starts without someone being a "bad" person.

This isn't black and white.

But at the same time as above being true, its also an absolute joke and mockery that someone can be arrested 100+ times and released.

my mom was prescribed some opioids recently and the doctor would not renew or refill the prescription, too much risk he said. She was a little worried about them but they did help.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by rofina

Peyote, marijuana, mushrooms, that's not what gets you to heroin and opioids. It just doesn't work like that.

I take it you have little or no experience with psychedelics?

Legal, pharmaceutical opioids have produced far more addicts than any naturally grown psychedelic plant.

How about this;

You are a teenager. Your step father is abusive. He beats you and often tries to assault you sexually. If not for him, you have no roof overhead. You try to reach out for help, but none is available. Not from government, not from your mother that works all day and into the evening. You eventually find an escape from your constant state of anxiety in a little elongated pill called Xanax, that a good 1/4 of your class mates and acquaintances have access to anyway, and use themselves. Its pharmaceutical, and accessible, how bad can it be?

This is just one way how addiction starts without someone being a "bad" person.

This isn't black and white.

But at the same time as above being true, its also an absolute joke and mockery that someone can be arrested 100+ times and released.

Of those addicted and end up on the streets today, how many are actually "sexually abused" or had "deep childhood trauma"? An answer to that would be nice. If the percentage is large, then something is really wrong with the family institution in Canada (and the whole of North America), because there are way less visible addicts in other countries and cities outside North America. How does this country turn into one of dysfunctional families then? Unfortunately, you may find that one of the largest reasons would be substance abuse, especially starting from the Hippie era of the 60s.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

Unfortunately, you may find that one of the largest reasons would be substance abuse, especially starting from the Hippie era of the 60s.

LOL are you Richard Nixon?

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Vin

Of those addicted and end up on the streets today, how many are actually "sexually abused" or had "deep childhood trauma"?

Really letting your privileged freak flag fly.

Who are we to determine whether someone has experienced enough trauma in the past to "deserve" struggling with mental illness? Although some individuals make conscious decisions to stay on the street and not begin the healing process, I am sure most would do almost anything to not sleep outside, addicted to substances that ruined their lives.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by Vin

Of those addicted and end up on the streets today, how many are actually "sexually abused" or had "deep childhood trauma"? An answer to that would be nice. If the percentage is large, then something is really wrong with the family institution in Canada (and the whole of North America), because there are way less visible addicts in other countries and cities outside North America. How does this country turn into one of dysfunctional families then? Unfortunately, you may find that one of the largest reasons would be substance abuse, especially starting from the Hippie era of the 60s.

I have two childhood friends that have struggled deeply with substance abuse throughout their adult life. One finally ended up on the streets after his family cut him off (tough love, but they realized as long as they gave him money, he'd just shoot it or smoke it, and end up dead), and the other lost everything (family, career etc.) Both came from middle to upper class families, and both were abused either physically or sexually at the hands of a family member as a child.

I would wager the percentage of people choosing to live on the street chose so for a reason. When your parent, family member, caregiver is the one creeping in to your room at night drunk ready to fight you or f*ck you, living on street might be your only option.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Of those addicted and end up on the streets today, how many are actually "sexually abused" or had "deep childhood trauma"? An answer to that would be nice. If the percentage is large, then something is really wrong with the family institution in Canada (and the whole of North America), because there are way less visible addicts in other countries and cities outside North America. How does this country turn into one of dysfunctional families then? Unfortunately, you may find that one of the largest reasons would be substance abuse, especially starting from the Hippie era of the 60s.

The answer to your question is many more than you seem to want to believe. And those are by no means the only ways in which people experience trauma (read up on veterans with untreated PTSD, for example, or the effects of residential schools on the aboriginal population). Others self-medicate after being given strong opiates for medical conditions, and then having their supply cut off. Many in the restaurant trade use amphetamines and then often something more powerful to get them through long shifts, without realizing they're addicted until it's too late. I had a friend who lost both his restaurant and his family that way.

You're right - North America has a huge number of drug users. In the USA in 2020 over 5 million people were estimated to use cocaine, 7 million had taken hallucinogens and another 16 million had misused prescription psychotherapeutics. In total 11.7% of Americans 12 and over use illegal drugs. 53 million or 19.4% of people 12 and over have used illegal drugs or misused prescription drugs within the last year.

It's not that different here - a significant minority of the BC population have used ‘hard’ drugs at some point. In 2017, 19 percent of those living in British Columbia reported cocaine/crack use in their lifetime. That’s over 930,000 people. If only a very small percentage of them became addicted as a result, it would still be thousands of people.

The rate of self-reported sexual assault in Canada has remained relatively stable over the past 15 years from 1999 (21 incidents per 1,000 population) to 2014 (22 incidents per 1,000 population). So that’s at least 100,000 people living in British Columbia who have experienced sexual assault at some time. If only a very small percentage of them became drug users as a result, it would still be several thousand people.

Don't ignore the fact that the drug-of-choice of some users is still alcohol; there are deaths, assaults and other crimes associated with alcohol use, and that's a legal drug.

Drug use is not so very different in many other countries. Just as an example, The UK, that you seem to like, had 100,000 admissions to hospital in 2019 with a primary or secondary diagnosis of drug-related mental and behavioural disorders. In 2018, among adults aged 16 to 59, 16.0 per cent (around 5.4 million) had taken a Class A drug in their lifetime. (Those are drugs other than cannabis, which is not legal in the UK). And alcoholism in the UK is a much bigger problem than it is in BC.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Vin

Of those addicted and end up on the streets today, how many are actually "sexually abused" or had "deep childhood trauma"? An answer to that would be nice. If the percentage is large, then something is really wrong with the family institution in Canada (and the whole of North America), because there are way less visible addicts in other countries and cities outside North America. How does this country turn into one of dysfunctional families then? Unfortunately, you may find that one of the largest reasons would be substance abuse, especially starting from the Hippie era of the 60s.

Lets back it up even further.

Why do you think anyone uses any substance?

You say substance abuse - why would anyone be using and subsequently abusing that substance? What's the motivation? What does it provide?

[MIPS]

Judge suspends eviction orders against homeless encampment in Vancouver
...In a ruling delivered Thursday at the Supreme Court of British Columbia, Justice F. Matthew Kirchner concluded that the Vancouver Park Board was not justified in issuing the eviction orders on July 8 and Sept. 7 of last year....

...In his written decision, Justice Kirchner supported Bamberger and Hebert's argument that both orders unreasonably assumed that there would be enough indoor shelter spaces to accommodate those living in the park when they are forced out....


...The judge also concluded that the residents of the encampment were not granted adequate notice or the opportunity to be heard before the eviction orders were implemented.

"Those individuals have a right to notice and a right to be heard, as their rights, privileges, or interests are uniquely affected," wrote Justice Kirchner.

The judge also suspended a court injunction application by the Vancouver Park Board that would have forced residents of the encampment to comply with the eviction order and remove all their shelters and belongings from the park.

The injunction application has been adjourned until the Park Board general manager has reconsidered the eviction orders.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...meless-encampment-in-vancouver-1.6314776

I can see this causing problems in the future. Not just by bogging down clear-outs in the courts (our good old friend, Mr. Consultation) but simply because there's no way they'll find accommodations for how even half of how large these encampments have gotten. Strathcona at its peak had nearly 300 people living there.
If the encampments show anything other than these eventually become slums with dangerously high crime rates, the GVRD homeless population is way larger than the annual count leads anyone to believe and the incentive for people to accumulate like that without much if any action by the city or the police siphons in more people from other areas, such the Fraser valley and the interior...or even out-of-province. Didn't we have at least one guy living there who was found to have warrants out for him in Alberta?
Without any restrictions or conditions you'll never build yourself out of the encampment problem.

[GenWhy?]

Agreed, a lack of action by the province and feds over the last, at least decade, mixed with skyrocketing rents in the Lower Mainland, has led to increased issues.

[SeymourDrake]

It all comes down to most of the homeless don't want to live under the rules of the resources available.

If they kick them out of all parks, where do they go?

The last thing the govt wants is to pack the jails with homeless, or fill beds at the pych wars of the hospitals. $$$

then you have those complaining about all of the homeless, yet they also complain about the govt spending tax payers $$$$

choose a lane folks

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

LOL are you Richard Nixon?

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Really letting your privileged freak flag fly.

Who are we to determine whether someone has experienced enough trauma in the past to "deserve" struggling with mental illness? Although some individuals make conscious decisions to stay on the street and not begin the healing process, I am sure most would do almost anything to not sleep outside, addicted to substances that ruined their lives.

Calling names now that you can't provide an answer to a simple question now I see? Well that's expected of you, so keep it up.

When your brains are heavily damaged, I don't think you can perceive things that well anymore. Not everyone is "privileged" to have a sound brain like yours, unless you disagree.

Originally Posted by rofina

Lets back it up even further.

Why do you think anyone uses any substance?

You say substance abuse - why would anyone be using and subsequently abusing that substance? What's the motivation? What does it provide?

Curiousity (kills the cat)? Having unrestricted "fun"? Being rebellious? Succumbing to peer pressure? Trying to be cool? I don't know what, but certainly not everyone is abused like most believe. But like I said before, if most people are abused to lead them to this stage, then our society needs a hard kick in the butt to wake up to smell the extents of the rot.

Ask yourself: Why did you (or those around you) try to have your first smoke? Were you abused?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I can see this causing problems in the future. Not just by bogging down clear-outs in the courts (our good old friend, Mr. Consultation) but simply because there's no way they'll find accommodations for how even half of how large these encampments have gotten. Strathcona at its peak had nearly 300 people living there.
If the encampments show anything other than these eventually become slums with dangerously high crime rates, the GVRD homeless population is way larger than the annual count leads anyone to believe and the incentive for people to accumulate like that without much if any action by the city or the police siphons in more people from other areas, such the Fraser valley and the interior...or even out-of-province. Didn't we have at least one guy living there who was found to have warrants out for him in Alberta?
Without any restrictions or conditions you'll never build yourself out of the encampment problem.

Another failure of our society: the "liberal" (or irresponsible) judicial system. No wonder those irresponsible for their lives are so bold these days.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

The last thing the govt wants is to pack the jails with homeless, or fill beds at the pych wars of the hospitals. $$$

I vaguely recall CoV said years ago the problem was a city issue and not provincial, promptly shooting themselves in the foot because okay if you want to save Victoria dumping money and resources into this, it's all yours.
The BC government isn't going to touch this with a seventy-five foot pole until City hall admits it was an astoundingly bad idea and begs for help.

I could of easily misheard something though.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

When your brains are heavily damaged, I don't think you can perceive things that well anymore. Not everyone is "privileged" to have a sound brain like yours, unless you disagree.

Strangely enough, you've inadvertently described one of the many reasons why some people end up on the street, or unemployable, or behaving in ways you seem to find objectionable. Mental conditions like schizophrenia affect a small minority of the population, but without a lot of support some of them end up being the sorts of people you probably mistake for drug users. (Some may be, but it's impossible for you to know if they're hallucinating because of their illness, or because of a drug-caused psychosis). About 0.5% of the North American population lives with schizophrenia and related psychotic disorders - that would be 12,500 people in Greater Vancouver. You can bet you'll find more of them Downtown or in the DTES because there are some support services there, and not everyone is hostile or judgmental. In case you think it's somehow 'their fault' - "it's not known what causes schizophrenia, but researchers believe that a combination of genetics, brain chemistry and environment contributes to development of the disorder". [Mayo Clinic if you want to know more]. People with bi-polar disorder can also show irrational behavior in the manic phase of the cycle. That has a much higher incidence; about 2.6% of the over 18 population every year, and 4.4% of the US population experience a bi-polar episode at some time in their lives. That would be 50,000 people in Greater Vancouver with a bi-polar designation this year. And in addition to illness, there's also a group of people with brain injury.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that abuse is the main reason for drug use, or homelessness, but it's certainly one of them.

The 2020 report of Homelessness in Vancouver found 547 unsheltered homeless on the night of the count, and 1,548 sheltered. That's just in the City of Vancouver, where the numbers of homeless fell 2% from 2017. (In Burnaby the numbers were up 80% in the same period). 60% had addiction issues and 46% had a mental health issues. 26% had a brain injury - which can cause cognitive, psychological and physical impacts including trouble concentrating, feeling confused, problems with words and speech, depression, balance issues, etc. Those are also characteristics that can be wrongly identified as drug related.

If all the homeless could be housed, with appropriate support services, the cost would be less to society. According to BC Housing the average person in supportive housing costs $37,000 a year to house; the average cost to service a homeless person is $55,000 (mostly healthcare or corrective services costs).

It won't make them disappear though; some will still be on the street, and some will be hallucinating and shouting at imaginary people. Unless we go back to locking them up and hiding them away.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I vaguely recall CoV said years ago the problem was a city issue and not provincial, promptly shooting themselves in the foot because okay if you want to save Victoria dumping money and resources into this, it's all yours.
The BC government isn't going to touch this with a seventy-five foot pole until City hall admits it was an astoundingly bad idea and begs for help.

I could of easily misheard something though.

I think they said it was a Provincial and Federal issue, but because neither level of government were taking any responsibility at the time (or spending much on new housing for the homeless) then the City would do something to try to improve the situation, as they ended up paying for a lot of the impacts of not having sufficient resources from Victoria or Ottawa. (and the homeless in Metro Vancouver were mostly on their streets, and in their parks).

That's changed a lot in the past few years - some of the projects are still City initiated (and on City-owned land, in some cases), but the Province and BC Housing are spending and supporting far more new projects across the city, including buying hotels, building temporary modular housing and supporting non-profit buildings like the new UGM building, or First United church replacement.

Burnaby took a 'not my problem' approach for many years. Between 2017 and 2020 the homeless count saw a very slight drop in Vancouver, and an 80% increase in Burnaby.

[Feathered Friend]

Not meaning to trot out a trope, but people here are aware of a little company called Purdue Phrama and their wonder drug, right?

One doesn't need to be of deficient character to be an addict, sometimes you can do everything right, and still find yourself having become a lifelong victim.

[SeymourDrake]

Don't worry everything will be set right come next Olympics in Vancouver.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Vin

Of those addicted and end up on the streets today, how many are actually "sexually abused" or had "deep childhood trauma"? An answer to that would be nice. If the percentage is large, then something is really wrong with the family institution in Canada (and the whole of North America), because there are way less visible addicts in other countries and cities outside North America. How does this country turn into one of dysfunctional families then?

Yeah, something was wrong in a major way, but we're trying to improve on that.

I am still amazed that residential schools were still operating up until the 1990s