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  #441  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rofina View Post
There is a lot of nuance in what "homeless" is;

1. Mental Health: Childhood trauma. Residential school trauma. Sex abuse. Schizophrenia, dementia, etc.

2. Criminal: Hustlers, pimps, drug dealers. Often users themselves. Profit off the situation and take advantage of chaos.

3. Economic: Working, cant afford a roof, perhaps some underlying stability issues, generally in need of assistance. Perhaps older, unemployable due to changing times, etc.
There is a lot of nuance, so abandoning housing first because it may not serve the first two groups as well as the last would be ill-advised.

If people have only been adversely affected by economic conditions and have no mental health concerns, housing first with little or no strings attached and few external supports will work. This is the cheapest option when you compare it to incarceration, homeless shelters, or housing with mental health supports.

For people with mental health issues, housing with integrated mental health supports is the best option.

Finally, the criminals should be put in prison.

However, the biggest challenge is not funding these solutions or hiring mental health support workers or finding suitable locations for facilities. The biggest challenge is figuring out which category each individual belongs in. Did someone impacted by economic conditions (group 3) commit petty theft because they were desperate, and should therefore be treated as a member of group 2? Does a chronic violent offender (group 2) only act out because of past trauma and should instead be addressed as a member of group 1? How do we decide if someone with mental health challenges has crossed a line and should be treated as a criminal?

It is a lot easier to say that anyone who commits a crime belongs in prison regardless or circumstance, while anyone else who is down on their luck should use homeless shelters and soup kitchens and try to pull themselves back up by their bootstraps.

Quote:
...our crisis is not the same as the one in Virginia...
  • Many homeless people move to coastal cities from elsewhere because the weather is more conducive to sleeping on a sidewalk
  • Some coastal cities have a more accepting political environment for the homeless or addicted
  • The wages paid to unskilled workers do not come close to the cost of living in coastal cities
  • People without jobs or with strained familial relationships are more likely to relocate, and many of the most attractive cities are on the coast
So while Vancouver or San Francisco's homeless and addition crises may not be caused by layoffs in oil fields or steel mills in close proximity to those cities, many people affected by hard economic circumstances in fly-over states (provinces) have moved to those cities for one reason or another. And those cities also have their own unique economic situations (as discussed on this forum) that may be pushing low-wage workers out of their homes.

Anyways, my point about coal or steel or oil towns that are struggling is that mental health and economic circumstances are related, and we cannot pretend that someone who lost their job is not more likely to fall into a cycle of poverty, addition, and homelessness than someone with steady employment.
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  #442  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2022, 9:06 PM
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Hi folks, a while back there was some discussion on this thread about Michael Shellenberger and his new book San Fransicko. I have now read Shellenberger’s book and recommend it. Although the book is focused on the situation in the USA, much of the content is also relevant to Vancouver, as we have enthusiastically adopted many of the same policy ideas as west coast American cities. I especially recommend this book to the supporters of our current policies, as many of the critiques are valid and, if they were addressed, might moderate the inevitable swing of the pendulum back in a more reactionary direction, which is inevitable if the disorder in our city continues to get worse. The backlash has already started in California, with the very-lefty mayor of very-lefty San Francisco declaring a state of emergency to help deal with their drug crisis.

I am not a policy expert, or even a policy amateur, on these topics. My sole expertise is having lived in the International Village area since 2006, just around the corner from Pigeon Park, where I’ve watched the conditions on the street deteriorate year after year (to be fair, the area had initially been improving as more people moved in, but that stopped a few years back and, since covid, the neighbourhood has gone into a tailspin). I also have some personal familiarity with addiction, having addicts in my family.

Here is a super quick summary of the book (it contains a lot more than this, so please read it yourself if this interests you):

The problem is not homelessness, it is addiction and mental health. But if the problem is described as homelessness, then the cause is primarily economic, and the people on the streets can be considered victims of cruel capitalists/governments/housing markets etc. This is an appealing idea to activists, who are often far to the left of the public politically, but do have the ear of civic authorities. And, of course, if the “homeless” are victims, then they are blameless for their situation and therefore eligible for special treatment (he stole my bike to buy drugs, but he’s a victim, so he’s not responsible for his actions, so we’re not going to arrest him). So not only have we mis-identified the actual problem, we have also created new problems, because now we have a legal system that has decided to turn a blind eye to petty crime and disorder, which inevitably leads to more petty crime and disorder. It’s the broken window theory in reverse. Furthermore, since we’re trying to fix the wrong problem, we’re not developing realistic solutions. This is how we end up with policies like “housing first.”

Housing first would make sense if those who lacked homes were, for example, primarily single mothers and forestry workers who have been laid off. But the people shooting heroin in my kid’s schoolyard, setting up tents in the park, and taking dumps outside my building are addicts, not single mothers. And they will die before they ever see any of this “housing first” because we simply can’t build apartments for thousands of people quickly enough or cheaply enough. In the meantime, street disorder will continue to lower the quality of life in this city. Addicts do need shelter, of course, but they need a roof – any roof – over their heads right now, not a phantom apartment maybe someday if they're lucky, and they need vastly expanded treatment options.

Instead of trying to build apartments for all, we should build or repurpose existing buildings as group shelters, which could be done very quickly (and in the case of repurposing existing buildings, almost immediately). And once shelter is definitely available for all, we need to insist people use it. No more setting up encampments or sleeping on the sidewalks (yes, the police would have to enforce this, and yes, it would be whack-a-mole for a while, but if done consistently, it would eventually result in much less street homelessness, although not eradicate it). People on the streets would be sheltered, but would not be entitled to a publicly provided free apartment, that would need to be earned. This is because getting out of shelter and into your own apartment can be excellent motivation for addicts to make the necessary changes in their lives – i.e. getting into treatment and, once in treatment, continuing to abstain from drugs and alcohol. I know this can work because this is how my brother quit drinking – he drank his way into a shelter in Edmonton, really wanted to get out of the group shelter and into his own place, and eventually did earn his own apartment by sticking with his treatment. It has now been 10 years since he last had a drink. It’s not fashionable to say this, but sometimes people need a kick in the ass.

Shellenberger advocates using the criminal justice system as a last resort – incarceration is not the first or the preferred option, but when someone has repeated violations, they will eventually end up in front of a judge, where they will have a choice between treatment and jail. This is apparently what is done in Portugal, Amsterdam and some other places in Europe that have had success in shutting down large open air drug scenes, like the one we have here in the DTES. The police also work closely with social workers throughout the process, with treatment always the preferred option. But continuing to do drugs openly and shit in the streets is absolutely not permitted. We have this idea that drugs are basically legal in Portugal, but apparently this is not the case – shooting heroin in the playground at the elementary school would result in your arrest in Portugal, unlike in my neighbourhood.

Of course, treatment won’t be effective for all, but the expectation should be that we are dealing with human beings who could, given the right opportunities, turn their lives around. So the goal is always to get people into treatment. In the meantime, however, those people will be expected to conduct themselves in public according to the same rules of civility that allow millions of us to live together peaceably in urban environments. And, since that won't be possible for everyone, we're going to need to re-open or vastly expand mental health facilities and reconsider if, how and when it might be appropriate to insist that people receive treatment.

Anyhow, I’m trying to summarize a few hundred pages in a couple of paragraphs and have surely gotten some things wrong, so if you are interested in different approaches to dealing with the addiction problems currently plaguing North America in general – and Vancouver in particular – then please read the book. It also talks about safe supply, harm reduction, tent cities, safe injection facilities, whether the contracting out of social services to non-profits is actually effective, and most of the other hot topics we see here in Vancouver.

I don’t know enough about this stuff to suggest what might or might not work legally or politically in Vancouver, but in light of the appalling death toll we’re currently seeing due to fentanyl, we should at least be open to re-evaluating our current approach (does harm reduction make sense in the era of fentanyl, for example, or are we just enabling people to stay stoned until they meet their fatal dose? Are there people who would be alive today if we had pressured them into treatment instead of focusing on harm reduction? Or even put them in jail instead of watching them die in the streets?). The Vancouver approach right now seems to be all carrot and no stick. And because some really people need the stick, we might be literally killing people with kindness.
You can't say it any better here. Thank you!

Moral of the story: stay away from drugs or anything detrimental to health and is addictive. We as a society should be tough on those who choose to become addicts by doing our best to pry them away from such evils by making them recover. If these can be achieved, there will no longer be any homeless issues in this city, province and country.
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  #443  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2022, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
You can't say it any better here. Thank you!

Moral of the story: stay away from drugs or anything detrimental to health and is addictive. We as a society should be tough on those who choose to become addicts by doing our best to pry them away from such evils by making them recover. If these can be achieved, there will no longer be any homeless issues in this city, province and country.
Better yet, address the root causes when these people are young. Some adults are, let's face it, beyond hope. How they got there is what needs to be fixed.

I see zero sign of that happening.
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  #444  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2022, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
You can't say it any better here. Thank you!

Moral of the story: stay away from drugs or anything detrimental to health and is addictive. We as a society should be tough on those who choose to become addicts by doing our best to pry them away from such evils by making them recover. If these can be achieved, there will no longer be any homeless issues in this city, province and country.
A small percentage, but near zero choose to become addicts.

Using is is escapism, its and attempt to mend over something broken, addiction is a side effect of readily available substances that are potent enough to provide that escape.

The real criminals; government and the war on drugs.

Psilocybin, MDMA, LSD and marijuana were made scheduled substances but we gave out opioids and anti depressants like candy; that's criminal and the results we see today.

Not to say that like my other posts, are current approach is also asinine and totally broken.
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  #445  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Probably the Robson IGA (though could be Robson Safeway):

Shoplifter allegedly pulls meat cleaver on Vancouver grocery worker following mask dispute
https://globalnews.ca/news/8487332/anti-mask-dispute-meat-cleaver-vancouver-grocery/
Re arrested and out on bail again twice in the same week for the same crime:
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/knife-wielding-man...-2nd-time-this-week-police-say-1.5731874
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  #446  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
Re arrested and out on bail again twice in the same week for the same crime:
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/knife-wielding-man...-2nd-time-this-week-police-say-1.5731874
I think this highlights the complete top down system failure.

From social work, to judicial, to mental health resources, to the entire thing.

Abject failure for society, for tax payers, for the individual for the City.

Its a rare scenario where not one positive benefit is extracted from a given situation, and that's quite a feat in of it self.
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  #447  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 12:29 AM
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Busy weekend in Vancouver

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  #448  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 12:47 AM
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The problem is the loss of balance, and this is culture wide in Canada.

Currently victim culture is in full swing and individual responsibility has been completely ignored. Everything is someone else’s fault / or a bogeyman system’s fault. In a social climate like this it is obvious to see how so many can give up on helping or improving themselves and be overtaken by an underlying predatory system of drug abuse.

Now, before responding to the above, I don’t recommend going full swing in the opposite direction, because there are victims of trauma and there are systematic problems, but a return to a balanced middle where more self discipline, personal responsibility and civic respect is taught and encouraged would be very beneficial.

Of course that alone won’t solve it, because as mentioned there are systematic problems too. The biggest is the lack of appropriate healthcare for the mentally ill and other such vulnerable people.

Also enforcement needs to be stepped up alongside the “free” drugs. For example, we provide free and safe places to shoot up, that now means you don’t fucking do it on the sidewalk or in parks. Another example: Okay, you can tent in parks overnight, but you MUST be packed up and put by 7am. No transforming parks and public spaces into shanty towns.

The current approach of “let the homeless and addicts do whatever they want wherever they want” isn’t helping. It is actually hurting them through what is an intended mix of kindness and apathy.
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  #449  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 5:30 AM
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Busy weekend in Vancouver

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At 6:32...

"Also in the DTES a chronic offender, a man with 128 prior criminal convictions was arrested on... "

Last edited by mcminsen; Jan 11, 2022 at 10:26 AM.
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  #450  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 6:15 AM
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Maybe after 100 convictions something a little more that catch and release should be looked into for an individual???

Just an idea.
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  #451  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 6:31 AM
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Maybe after 100 convictions something a little more that catch and release should be looked into for an individual???

Just an idea.
"He's currently in custody".
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  #452  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 6:52 AM
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"He's currently in custody".
Let’s see where he is next week!
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  #453  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 7:08 AM
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Next week? He's likely free already. Man, we really need to hurry up decriminalising poverty, so victims like this poor fellow don't have to resort to crime due to constant police harassment! Poor guy is just down on his luck!!
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  #454  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 7:13 AM
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Re arrested and out on bail again twice in the same week for the same crime:
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/knife-wielding-man...-2nd-time-this-week-police-say-1.5731874
Nothing is gonna happen before someone innocent dies and even then the fool enablers are going to try to pin it on VPD. I hope this guy gets the job at a meat department that he clearly so desperately craves! Someone just needs to take a leap of faith with this poor soul with good intentions and hire him!!
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  #455  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 3:36 PM
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At 6:32...

"Also in the DTES a chronic offender, a man with 128 prior criminal convictions was arrested on... "
<honestly wonders if Pivot Legal is somehow involved in this>
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  #456  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 8:51 PM
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<honestly wonders if Pivot Legal is somehow involved in this>
If they aren't, they sure will be. This guy is a Customer of the Year contender for them!
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  #457  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 9:01 PM
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Better yet, address the root causes when these people are young. Some adults are, let's face it, beyond hope. How they got there is what needs to be fixed.

I see zero sign of that happening.
You do have a point there, but that would be even harder to achieve as many families, even the dysfuncitonal ones, would consider it overly intrusive.

If young folks can be prevented from possessing drugs in the first place, that would be ideal, as in the case of what New Zealand is trying to attain now.
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  #458  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rofina View Post
A small percentage, but near zero choose to become addicts.

Using is is escapism, its and attempt to mend over something broken, addiction is a side effect of readily available substances that are potent enough to provide that escape.

The real criminals; government and the war on drugs.

Psilocybin, MDMA, LSD and marijuana were made scheduled substances but we gave out opioids and anti depressants like candy; that's criminal and the results we see today.

Not to say that like my other posts, are current approach is also asinine and totally broken.
If they choose to experiment with it in the first place, they should know that there will be a chance of addiction. Therefore they still choose to become addicts, unless the person in question is forced to take drugs at gun point, or prescribed medication for an ailment leads the person to be hooked. I would say the majority of addicts today are first exposed to "recreational" drugs.
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  #459  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 9:07 PM
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"He's currently in custody".
Yeah, but perhaps not for long. Almost every crook in town is released once apprehended.
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  #460  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2022, 9:35 PM
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If they aren't, they sure will be. This guy is a Customer of the Year contender for them!
That's unlikely. You and s211 seem to think the Pivot Legal Society is a law firm. It isn't; it's a campaigning non-profit concerned with homelessness and housing justice, sex work law reform, drug policy, and policing and police accountability. It accomplishes this through strategic litigation and public advocacy directed at government.
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