Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Klazu

In the states unions are powerful in politics but does that also apply in here provincially or federally? Which unions are the big powerhouses?

Well it's not the Union of BC Municipalities, I can tell you that...

[Mininari]

Satire Warning:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/george-m...5ImY2PtSEV2SIncNtBymINGQPAC9E4KhyRdW9FbY

"...It has been a long four years since construction began in 2017, but 2022 has come and with that the new 10-lane George Massey Bridge replacing the existing tunnel, and Highway 99 corridor improvements are now complete and fully open for public use as of this morning, January 13..."

[s211]

Originally Posted by Mininari

Satire Warning:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/george-m...5ImY2PtSEV2SIncNtBymINGQPAC9E4KhyRdW9FbY

"...It has been a long four years since construction began in 2017, but 2022 has come and with that the new 10-lane George Massey Bridge replacing the existing tunnel, and Highway 99 corridor improvements are now complete and fully open for public use as of this morning, January 13..."

The truth hurts.

[Metro-One]

Funniest parts are the comments:

First are the people angered that they were “tricked” and didn’t realize it was satire.

Then there are those that obviously didn’t read beyond the headline talking about ice bombs!

Then those saying it was a poor attempt at satire without offering any reasoning to support why they feel that way (or how they would do better). The fact that it is tricking and even angering some people suggests to me that the satire is working.

Then there are those who simply say, “more lanes means more cars” completely missing all other 99 factors mentioned such as price, schedule, median rapid bus transit, cycling, etc… Suggesting they also didn’t read it or can’t see beyond the minor issue of an additional 2 lanes.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The question, of course, being which other project currently under construction would still be on hold in Ian's parallel universe?

[Metro-One]

None, because it’s not an either or game. And the excess 1.55 billion that is to be used for the tunnel’s 4.15 billion dollar plan could have been used to fund the province’s share for the Broadway Subway.

Also, the question can be flipped on its head, what projects are going to need to be pushed back or cancelled to fund the 4.15 billion dollar plan (with highly reduced scope, especially for the transit components) in 2026? Or will that somehow cause no ripples?

By 2030 the same projects will be compete, just with an extra wasted 1.55 billion dollars (and again, with a far smaller end result).

Oh yeah, that also doesn’t include the wasted 100 million dollars already spent on the project.

FYI, people on here can support the NDP overall while also admitting that cancelling this project just to replace it with an even more expensive project for a lower quality result is a blunder.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

FYI, people on here can support the NDP overall while also admitting that cancelling this project just to replace it with an even more expensive project for a lower quality result is a blunder.

but they wont, because when you're a leftist everything the left does is gospel these days.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

but they wont, because when you're a leftist everything the left does is gospel these days.

Yeah, while I think it’s not just a leftist problem (it’s on the right too) it’s definitely seems true that these days you must support and agree with everything your “team” / political party does. Such a bizarre way to be IMO.

For example, while I supported the liberals in 2016 there were many problems I had with them as well. On the flip side there are many things the NDP have done that I like over the last six years, but highways is definitely not one of them!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, while I think it’s not just a leftist problem (it’s on the right too) it’s definitely seems true that these days you must support and agree with everything your “team” / political party does. Such a bizarre way to be IMO.

For example, while I supported the liberals in 2016 there were many problems I had with them as well. On the flip side there are many things the NDP have done that I like over the last six years, but highways is definitely not one of them!

Wrong set of assumptions. Pretty sure that I've never said that $1+ billion cost creep was a good thing, nor that a tunnel was better than a bridge. The Horgan administration has indeed failed in this department.

But the fact remains that the choice in 2016 was SkyTrain OR Massey Bridge - if Christy Clark won, how likely is it that we'd be raising funds for the Broadway extension and not a highway to Gibsons?

[Klazu]

While I appreciate the satire here, I think the media should be asking the government some tough questions on wasting billions of dollars, yet they don't. The media tried ousting minister Farnsworth over the road washouts, yet the NDP has mostly been given a free pass on this travesty of using public funds.

I hope the NDP keeps sitting on their thumbs and the next Liberal government will revive the original plan, as that is the only 100-year solution for the region and will still end up being cheaper than having to keep patching problem areas afterwards (just look at Highway 17).

I also do hate clueless people throwing around two words they have once heard: "induced demand". There is no further demand to induce here, as South Surrey has already built thousands of single-family homes regardless of the lack of any modern road infrastructure to support it. The demand is already here and it's grinding everything to halt. Lack of proper infrastructure won't prevent any suburban development from continuing to happen, but it will absolutely kill movement of people and goods for the entire metropolitan area.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

But the fact remains that the choice in 2016 was SkyTrain OR Massey Bridge - if Christy Clark won, how likely is it that we'd be raising funds for the Broadway extension and not a highway to Gibsons?

Are you referring to the past referendum? Hindsight is funny and the price tag today would have gotten us both back then. Even today one cannot really say that NDP is filling an election promise with the Broadway SkyTrain, as the project only nudged into motion after rebuilding the economy due to COVID became a thing and billions in funding just appeared out of a blue sky. Without COVID we might still not have Broadway SkyTrain under construction, not to mention Langley SkyTrain.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Wrong set of assumptions. Pretty sure that I've never said that $1+ billion cost creep was a good thing, nor that a tunnel was better than a bridge. The Horgan administration has indeed failed in this department.

But the fact remains that the choice in 2016 was SkyTrain OR Massey Bridge - if Christy Clark won, how likely is it that we'd be raising funds for the Broadway extension and not a highway to Gibsons?

But Christy didn’t win, so the preferred outcome would have been for the NDP to have looked at this project and just continued as is (maybe with a lane reduction of 10 to 8 to save face) while continuing with the Broadway Subway.

If Christy did win and shelved the Broadway Subway then I would have been criticizing that as well.

But a more apples to apples comparison would be if Christy not only delayed the Broadway Subway, but also downsized it to an at grade LRT at a higher cost. And yes, that would also be worthy of great criticism.

Also, sorry if I made too many assumptions on you.

But the article is about what has happened since 2016.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Are you referring to the past referendum? Hindsight is funny and the price tag today would have gotten us both back then. Even today one cannot really say that NDP is filling an election promise with the Broadway SkyTrain, as the project only nudged into motion after rebuilding the economy due to COVID became a thing and billions in funding just appeared out of a blue sky. Without COVID we might still not have Broadway SkyTrain under construction, not to mention Langley SkyTrain.

The Dippers actually promised it in 2016 and started funding it soon after entering office, long before we even knew where the hell Wuhan was. Nobody starts building immediately after the money comes through, you need to check the soil first.

I'm talking about Christy and the Libs in general; when they want to shut down Burrard Bridge for a yoga day or spend billions on a bridge to a couple of resort towns, then screwing TransLink really isn't about fiscal responsibility OR efficient people/goods movement for them, it's about politics. Even during the election, the Libs only promised unconditional funding for Broadway a month before the vote... right when they were losing in the polls.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

But Christy didn’t win, so the preferred outcome would have been for the NDP to have looked at this project and just continued as is (maybe with a lane reduction of 10 to 8 to save face) while continuing with the Broadway Subway.

If Christy did win and shelved the Broadway Subway then I would have been criticizing that as well.

But a more apples to apples comparison would be if Christy not only delayed the Broadway Subway, but also downsized it to an at grade LRT at a higher cost. And yes, that would also be worthy of great criticism.

Also, sorry if I made too many assumptions on you.

But the article is about what has happened since 2016.

Hey, no problem. Again, I'm not thrilled with the downgrade either - more $$$, no bus lanes, twice the damage to Deas. I believe I've been fairly vocal on that here.

Point still stands, though: yes, it really was an either/or game back then. Saying yes to Massey in 2017 means saying no to Broadway, and likely to Langley as well.

[WarrenC12]

The Liberals promised a 2017 construction start as a part of a 2013 election campaign. A record setting punt more than 1 term in the future.

They deserve part of the blame for not getting it going in say, late 2015, where it would be a done deal no matter who won in 2017.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I also do hate clueless people throwing around two words they have once heard: "induced demand". There is no further demand to induce here, as South Surrey has already built thousands of single-family homes regardless of the lack of any modern road infrastructure to support it. The demand is already there and it's grinding everything to halt. Lack of proper infrastructure won't prevent any suburban development from continuing to happen, but it will absolutely kill movement of people and goods for the entire metropolitan area.

Maybe you should do some research to find out you don't know what "induced demand" is either.

Induced demand is not a function of the overall demand for all transit options. Rather, it describes how people choose between the options when one of them is upgraded.

I am not sure induced demand is a logical critique of the crossing, since it absolutely has to be rebuilt because of seismic concerns anyways. And it makes sense to future-proof any new crossing by making it wider because it is a lot easier to add capacity to a freeway vs. a bridge.

[idunno]

^^ Agreed. Induced demand isn't just about where people end up moving/how many homes there are in a certain place, but about their behaviour and every-day decision-making.

5-10 years ago, someone living in Whalley may not have opted to take a job in PoCo because they didn't want to deal with the traffic, then tolls on the Port Mann. Nowadays, they may not give that decision a second thought, because the route is toll-free and mostly smooth sailing.

Multiply that thought process by 10,000 and you have a lot more VMT, even without considering population growth.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I also do hate clueless people throwing around two words they have once heard: "induced demand". There is no further demand to induce here, as South Surrey has already built thousands of single-family homes regardless of the lack of any modern road infrastructure to support it. The demand is already there and it's grinding everything to halt. Lack of proper infrastructure won't prevent any suburban development from continuing to happen, but it will absolutely kill movement of people and goods for the entire metropolitan area.

Oh I agree.

South Surrey, Newton-Panorama Ridge, Delta. The population continues to grow out there and transit ridership will never ever be there to meet the demands. We are adding approx 400k new people (right?) to the region each year. Added demands with the ferry terminals, warehouses in S Surrey, border travel, amenities and the new mall as well...

I hate to say it because I was a proponent of the ALR's but the ALR's have to go. We really need to be building industrial facilities along with homes on the lands give prospective home buyers a chance of living in the region.

Something has to give here. Either you halt immigration or commit to regional zoning provisions that permit densification at a rapid pace while also building on the barren lands. Can't do neither right now.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Mininari

Satire Warning:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/george-m...5ImY2PtSEV2SIncNtBymINGQPAC9E4KhyRdW9FbY

"...It has been a long four years since construction began in 2017, but 2022 has come and with that the new 10-lane George Massey Bridge replacing the existing tunnel, and Highway 99 corridor improvements are now complete and fully open for public use as of this morning, January 13..."

Read this yesterday: really makes a laughing stock of the NDP government. Hogan must be feeling himself shrinking in stature if he gets to read this.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

South Surrey, Newton-Panorama Ridge, Delta. The population continues to grow out there and transit ridership will never ever be there to meet the demands. We are adding approx 400k new people (right?) to the region each year.

I don't have numbers yet - I still have to search - but this has to be much, much higher than the actual rate of change. 400,000 new residents per year would mean that Metro Vancouver's population would double in less than seven years. It is equivalent to adding another Burnaby and Coquitlam every year.

EDIT: Per this article in the Daily Hive last spring:

Newly revised population forecasts project Metro Vancouver will grow to about 3.8 million people by 2050. This is an increase from 2.8 million people in 2021, which is up from 2.38 million in 2011 and 2.59 million in 2016. Metro Vancouver Regional District’s new modelling shows the growth trend will continue, which means an average annual growth of about 35,000 people. It also accounts for short-term shocks and uncertainties such as COVID-19, as well as natural increases from births and deaths, immigration, inter-provincial migration, and intra-provincial migration.

The current population of "South of Fraser East" (Surrey/Langley, per the Metro Vancouver modelling) is predicted to increase by approximately 400,000 people between 2020 and 2050.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

We are adding approx 400k new people (right?) to the region each year.

Er no, not even close to right. According to the Provincial Government Greater Vancouver added about 35,000 people a year in the past decade.