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  #421  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2021, 8:05 PM
Skook Skook is offline
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Hi folks, a while back there was some discussion on this thread about Michael Shellenberger and his new book San Fransicko. I have now read Shellenberger’s book and recommend it. Although the book is focused on the situation in the USA, much of the content is also relevant to Vancouver, as we have enthusiastically adopted many of the same policy ideas as west coast American cities. I especially recommend this book to the supporters of our current policies, as many of the critiques are valid and, if they were addressed, might moderate the inevitable swing of the pendulum back in a more reactionary direction, which is inevitable if the disorder in our city continues to get worse. The backlash has already started in California, with the very-lefty mayor of very-lefty San Francisco declaring a state of emergency to help deal with their drug crisis.

I am not a policy expert, or even a policy amateur, on these topics. My sole expertise is having lived in the International Village area since 2006, just around the corner from Pigeon Park, where I’ve watched the conditions on the street deteriorate year after year (to be fair, the area had initially been improving as more people moved in, but that stopped a few years back and, since covid, the neighbourhood has gone into a tailspin). I also have some personal familiarity with addiction, having addicts in my family.

Here is a super quick summary of the book (it contains a lot more than this, so please read it yourself if this interests you):

The problem is not homelessness, it is addiction and mental health. But if the problem is described as homelessness, then the cause is primarily economic, and the people on the streets can be considered victims of cruel capitalists/governments/housing markets etc. This is an appealing idea to activists, who are often far to the left of the public politically, but do have the ear of civic authorities. And, of course, if the “homeless” are victims, then they are blameless for their situation and therefore eligible for special treatment (he stole my bike to buy drugs, but he’s a victim, so he’s not responsible for his actions, so we’re not going to arrest him). So not only have we mis-identified the actual problem, we have also created new problems, because now we have a legal system that has decided to turn a blind eye to petty crime and disorder, which inevitably leads to more petty crime and disorder. It’s the broken window theory in reverse. Furthermore, since we’re trying to fix the wrong problem, we’re not developing realistic solutions. This is how we end up with policies like “housing first.”

Housing first would make sense if those who lacked homes were, for example, primarily single mothers and forestry workers who have been laid off. But the people shooting heroin in my kid’s schoolyard, setting up tents in the park, and taking dumps outside my building are addicts, not single mothers. And they will die before they ever see any of this “housing first” because we simply can’t build apartments for thousands of people quickly enough or cheaply enough. In the meantime, street disorder will continue to lower the quality of life in this city. Addicts do need shelter, of course, but they need a roof – any roof – over their heads right now, not a phantom apartment maybe someday if they're lucky, and they need vastly expanded treatment options.

Instead of trying to build apartments for all, we should build or repurpose existing buildings as group shelters, which could be done very quickly (and in the case of repurposing existing buildings, almost immediately). And once shelter is definitely available for all, we need to insist people use it. No more setting up encampments or sleeping on the sidewalks (yes, the police would have to enforce this, and yes, it would be whack-a-mole for a while, but if done consistently, it would eventually result in much less street homelessness, although not eradicate it). People on the streets would be sheltered, but would not be entitled to a publicly provided free apartment, that would need to be earned. This is because getting out of shelter and into your own apartment can be excellent motivation for addicts to make the necessary changes in their lives – i.e. getting into treatment and, once in treatment, continuing to abstain from drugs and alcohol. I know this can work because this is how my brother quit drinking – he drank his way into a shelter in Edmonton, really wanted to get out of the group shelter and into his own place, and eventually did earn his own apartment by sticking with his treatment. It has now been 10 years since he last had a drink. It’s not fashionable to say this, but sometimes people need a kick in the ass.

Shellenberger advocates using the criminal justice system as a last resort – incarceration is not the first or the preferred option, but when someone has repeated violations, they will eventually end up in front of a judge, where they will have a choice between treatment and jail. This is apparently what is done in Portugal, Amsterdam and some other places in Europe that have had success in shutting down large open air drug scenes, like the one we have here in the DTES. The police also work closely with social workers throughout the process, with treatment always the preferred option. But continuing to do drugs openly and shit in the streets is absolutely not permitted. We have this idea that drugs are basically legal in Portugal, but apparently this is not the case – shooting heroin in the playground at the elementary school would result in your arrest in Portugal, unlike in my neighbourhood.

Of course, treatment won’t be effective for all, but the expectation should be that we are dealing with human beings who could, given the right opportunities, turn their lives around. So the goal is always to get people into treatment. In the meantime, however, those people will be expected to conduct themselves in public according to the same rules of civility that allow millions of us to live together peaceably in urban environments. And, since that won't be possible for everyone, we're going to need to re-open or vastly expand mental health facilities and reconsider if, how and when it might be appropriate to insist that people receive treatment.

Anyhow, I’m trying to summarize a few hundred pages in a couple of paragraphs and have surely gotten some things wrong, so if you are interested in different approaches to dealing with the addiction problems currently plaguing North America in general – and Vancouver in particular – then please read the book. It also talks about safe supply, harm reduction, tent cities, safe injection facilities, whether the contracting out of social services to non-profits is actually effective, and most of the other hot topics we see here in Vancouver.

I don’t know enough about this stuff to suggest what might or might not work legally or politically in Vancouver, but in light of the appalling death toll we’re currently seeing due to fentanyl, we should at least be open to re-evaluating our current approach (does harm reduction make sense in the era of fentanyl, for example, or are we just enabling people to stay stoned until they meet their fatal dose? Are there people who would be alive today if we had pressured them into treatment instead of focusing on harm reduction? Or even put them in jail instead of watching them die in the streets?). The Vancouver approach right now seems to be all carrot and no stick. And because some really people need the stick, we might be literally killing people with kindness.
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  #422  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2021, 8:05 PM
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Temporarily steering away from crime stats for a bit, looks like the Sahotas are at it again. This time it's one of their places on Granville street where they seemingly can't afford to maintain the heating system.

Quote:
About half the residents of the Regal Hotel in Vancouver were bracing for a fourth consecutive night without heat Tuesday with the outside temperature and wind chill values expected to drop to –20 C in the city.

The heat first went out at the single resident occupancy (SRO) hotel on Christmas Day, according to multiple sources, leaving many vulnerable tenants suffering in the bitter cold.

On Tuesday afternoon, a person who lives and works at the Regal Hotel told CBC some repairs had been made, but that heat was coming back for only half of the 80 units in the 110-year-old building at 1046 Granville Street.

...


Desrochers said a City of Vancouver staffer confirmed that city officials knew about the Regal Hotel heat problem on Christmas Day, but that no action was taken until Dec. 27, after she began contacting media outlets with the story.

She said given the Sahotas' record, city officials should have acted sooner.

"The property owner is ultimately responsible, but they have a history of non-compliance to the point of dereliction," said Desrochers. "Absolutely nothing was done even when [the city] knew there was a problem ... until the media stepped up and asked the city, why not?"

...

The Regal Hotel has 23 outstanding safety, maintenance and fire bylaw violations, according to a City of Vancouver database.

Two Sahota-owned Downtown Eastside SROs — the Balmoral and Regent hotels — were shut down by the city in 2017 and 2018 respectively due to dangerous and unsanitary conditions.

In 2019, city council approved expropriating the two buildings for $1 each, but after a legal challenge the city ended up paying $11.5 million for the properties.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/regal-hotel-no-heat-vancouver-1.6299441
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  #423  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2021, 8:21 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Originally Posted by MIPS View Post
Temporarily steering away from crime stats for a bit, looks like the Sahotas are at it again. This time it's one of their places on Granville street where they seemingly can't afford to maintain the heating system.
The Sahotas are scum. It is ridiculous that the municipal, provincial and federal governments don't have laws to deal with them. All they seem to value is cash so hit them in their pocketbook or lock them up.

Worth noting is that the folks living in these buildings have done what many in this thread want - they've found housing and some measure of stability and this is how they get treated.
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  #424  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 12:01 AM
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I'm not going to excuse the Sahotas nor any other scumlords, we have plenty in this city, some just are better connected and don't end up in the press... It is a brutal business and I don't doubt that even if they wanted to, it would be hard to update these building into anything most of us would consider living in, given the amount of rent that they generate and the type of tenants they house. The amount of damage caused is surreal. Any of the city owned SROS while certainly better maintained are bleeding money, hard to expect a private operator to lose money continuously.
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  #425  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:40 AM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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I'm not going to excuse the Sahotas nor any other scumlords, we have plenty in this city, some just are better connected and don't end up in the press... It is a brutal business and I don't doubt that even if they wanted to, it would be hard to update these building into anything most of us would consider living in, given the amount of rent that they generate and the type of tenants they house. The amount of damage caused is surreal. Any of the city owned SROS while certainly better maintained are bleeding money, hard to expect a private operator to lose money continuously.
Then they should get out of the business. Agree with a price with the province and Feds, add the money to their $200 million fortune and go.
This should be required reading for every Vanccouverite:

“Shelly Ingram says she never gets used to the sound of mice falling through the gaping hole in her bathroom ceiling and landing with a thump in her empty bathtub.

When one drops, her partner, John, will rush across their tiny bachelor suite to try to catch the creature, but most times the rodent has already bounded up over the side of the aging clawfoot tub and scurried into a hole in the wall at the base of the sink.…”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/b...wesome%3A%20outbound&utm_medium=referral
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  #426  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:58 AM
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mezzanine mezzanine is offline
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I'm not going to excuse the Sahotas nor any other scumlords, we have plenty in this city, some just are better connected and don't end up in the press... It is a brutal business and I don't doubt that even if they wanted to, it would be hard to update these building into anything most of us would consider living in, given the amount of rent that they generate and the type of tenants they house. The amount of damage caused is surreal. Any of the city owned SROS while certainly better maintained are bleeding money, hard to expect a private operator to lose money continuously.
mmm, yeah, this is a bad take. profit margins would be tight and you have to run the place lean, but not fixing the heat in the middle of a long cold snap is I hope is not the take-home.
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  #427  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 8:18 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Then they should get out of the business. Agree with a price with the province and Feds, add the money to their $200 million fortune and go.
This should be required reading for every Vanccouverite:

“Shelly Ingram says she never gets used to the sound of mice falling through the gaping hole in her bathroom ceiling and landing with a thump in her empty bathtub.

When one drops, her partner, John, will rush across their tiny bachelor suite to try to catch the creature, but most times the rodent has already bounded up over the side of the aging clawfoot tub and scurried into a hole in the wall at the base of the sink.…”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/b...wesome%3A%20outbound&utm_medium=referral
Not that they deserve to have mice running around, but why don't they patch those holes?

Good thing the hole isn't right above the stove where the mice could fall into a big batch of soup.
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  #428  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:29 PM
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WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is online now
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If I ran a "normal" rental like this I'd be taken to CRT and have the shit sued out of me (and I'd lose). The Sahotas have a vast fortune built on being slumlords. Anybody giving them a shred of sympathy needs to think about it for 5 minutes.
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  #429  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 8:26 PM
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You know that old stereotype of the [insert city here] italian/greek/brooklyn landlord who owns eight buildings and lives in the suburbs while driving around in a [insert now-dated 70's or 80's luxury car here] but when it comes to maintenance he's always short money when you report a problem?
You sometimes see him schmoozing around the Community Housing Commission office applying for maintenance grant money but when it comes time to call him in for a drain leak the plumber wait is 3-5 weeks because all the repairmen have him on a blacklist as a non-paying customer?
The kind of guy who comes through once a month for the inspection and you know he won't address any complaints but oh man, if he sees you put an anchor in the drywall to hang a photo he threatens to raise the rent to cover repairs?

Remember the early 2000's show "The PJ's?"

Yeah, that's the Sahotas. They got piles of personal wealth but when it comes to the annual budget for their various building investments it's pretty damn lean.
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  #430  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 9:27 PM
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Yeah, that's the Sahotas. They got piles of personal wealth but when it comes to the annual budget for their various building investments it's pretty damn lean.
Sure landlords can choose to run luxury or lean operations. The point here is they are violating laws, and get away with it because their clientele don't have the ability or know-how to make them legally accountable.
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  #431  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2021, 2:10 AM
Florilege Florilege is offline
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Thanks. It makes me even more interested to thoroughly read that book.

I agree with you: a lot of people believe that Portugal straight up decriminalized drugs and everything went fine afterwards. That's not true at all. Hard drugs abusers are strongly entice to get treatment.
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  #432  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 5:29 PM
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Hi folks, a while back there was some discussion on this thread about Michael Shellenberger and his new book San Fransicko. I have now read Shellenberger’s book and recommend it. Although the book is focused on the situation in the USA, much of the content is also relevant to Vancouver, as we have enthusiastically adopted many of the same policy ideas as west coast American cities. I especially recommend this book to the supporters of our current policies, as many of the critiques are valid and, if they were addressed, might moderate the inevitable swing of the pendulum back in a more reactionary direction, which is inevitable if the disorder in our city continues to get worse. The backlash has already started in California, with the very-lefty mayor of very-lefty San Francisco declaring a state of emergency to help deal with their drug crisis.

I am not a policy expert, or even a policy amateur, on these topics. My sole expertise is having lived in the International Village area since 2006, just around the corner from Pigeon Park, where I’ve watched the conditions on the street deteriorate year after year (to be fair, the area had initially been improving as more people moved in, but that stopped a few years back and, since covid, the neighbourhood has gone into a tailspin). I also have some personal familiarity with addiction, having addicts in my family.

Here is a super quick summary of the book (it contains a lot more than this, so please read it yourself if this interests you):

The problem is not homelessness, it is addiction and mental health. But if the problem is described as homelessness, then the cause is primarily economic, and the people on the streets can be considered victims of cruel capitalists/governments/housing markets etc. This is an appealing idea to activists, who are often far to the left of the public politically, but do have the ear of civic authorities. And, of course, if the “homeless” are victims, then they are blameless for their situation and therefore eligible for special treatment (he stole my bike to buy drugs, but he’s a victim, so he’s not responsible for his actions, so we’re not going to arrest him). So not only have we mis-identified the actual problem, we have also created new problems, because now we have a legal system that has decided to turn a blind eye to petty crime and disorder, which inevitably leads to more petty crime and disorder. It’s the broken window theory in reverse. Furthermore, since we’re trying to fix the wrong problem, we’re not developing realistic solutions. This is how we end up with policies like “housing first.”

Housing first would make sense if those who lacked homes were, for example, primarily single mothers and forestry workers who have been laid off. But the people shooting heroin in my kid’s schoolyard, setting up tents in the park, and taking dumps outside my building are addicts, not single mothers. And they will die before they ever see any of this “housing first” because we simply can’t build apartments for thousands of people quickly enough or cheaply enough. In the meantime, street disorder will continue to lower the quality of life in this city. Addicts do need shelter, of course, but they need a roof – any roof – over their heads right now, not a phantom apartment maybe someday if they're lucky, and they need vastly expanded treatment options.

Instead of trying to build apartments for all, we should build or repurpose existing buildings as group shelters, which could be done very quickly (and in the case of repurposing existing buildings, almost immediately). And once shelter is definitely available for all, we need to insist people use it. No more setting up encampments or sleeping on the sidewalks (yes, the police would have to enforce this, and yes, it would be whack-a-mole for a while, but if done consistently, it would eventually result in much less street homelessness, although not eradicate it). People on the streets would be sheltered, but would not be entitled to a publicly provided free apartment, that would need to be earned. This is because getting out of shelter and into your own apartment can be excellent motivation for addicts to make the necessary changes in their lives – i.e. getting into treatment and, once in treatment, continuing to abstain from drugs and alcohol. I know this can work because this is how my brother quit drinking – he drank his way into a shelter in Edmonton, really wanted to get out of the group shelter and into his own place, and eventually did earn his own apartment by sticking with his treatment. It has now been 10 years since he last had a drink. It’s not fashionable to say this, but sometimes people need a kick in the ass.

Shellenberger advocates using the criminal justice system as a last resort – incarceration is not the first or the preferred option, but when someone has repeated violations, they will eventually end up in front of a judge, where they will have a choice between treatment and jail. This is apparently what is done in Portugal, Amsterdam and some other places in Europe that have had success in shutting down large open air drug scenes, like the one we have here in the DTES. The police also work closely with social workers throughout the process, with treatment always the preferred option. But continuing to do drugs openly and shit in the streets is absolutely not permitted. We have this idea that drugs are basically legal in Portugal, but apparently this is not the case – shooting heroin in the playground at the elementary school would result in your arrest in Portugal, unlike in my neighbourhood.

Of course, treatment won’t be effective for all, but the expectation should be that we are dealing with human beings who could, given the right opportunities, turn their lives around. So the goal is always to get people into treatment. In the meantime, however, those people will be expected to conduct themselves in public according to the same rules of civility that allow millions of us to live together peaceably in urban environments. And, since that won't be possible for everyone, we're going to need to re-open or vastly expand mental health facilities and reconsider if, how and when it might be appropriate to insist that people receive treatment.

Anyhow, I’m trying to summarize a few hundred pages in a couple of paragraphs and have surely gotten some things wrong, so if you are interested in different approaches to dealing with the addiction problems currently plaguing North America in general – and Vancouver in particular – then please read the book. It also talks about safe supply, harm reduction, tent cities, safe injection facilities, whether the contracting out of social services to non-profits is actually effective, and most of the other hot topics we see here in Vancouver.

I don’t know enough about this stuff to suggest what might or might not work legally or politically in Vancouver, but in light of the appalling death toll we’re currently seeing due to fentanyl, we should at least be open to re-evaluating our current approach (does harm reduction make sense in the era of fentanyl, for example, or are we just enabling people to stay stoned until they meet their fatal dose? Are there people who would be alive today if we had pressured them into treatment instead of focusing on harm reduction? Or even put them in jail instead of watching them die in the streets?). The Vancouver approach right now seems to be all carrot and no stick. And because some really people need the stick, we might be literally killing people with kindness.
Thank you for the detailed post!

Very good points, I'm glad that some complex ideas are being articulated, particularly about what homelessness is and what it looks like today.

Also have been trying to articulate this same idea - we are killing folks with kindness.

There is nothing to be proud of in enabling continuous sufferig, no matter how well intentioned, the old adage applies; the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I do despise the bad faith actors on the other side too; this isn't about refusing housing. Its just the opposite, I think anyone being intellectually honest can recognize recovery would be impossible without at least a roof overhead.

But the idea that sweeping an addict with numerous mental health issues into a new condo is going to solve anything; it wont.

The idea that allowing people to steal to continue a habit is acceptable is insane.

The idea that there is no criminality that should be dealt with on a long term basis, is insane.

These are all individuals and should be approached as such.

Our way isn't working, wont work, and the situation will continue to get worse until even the most ardent supporter will capitulate.

The shame is; the spiral further down isn't necessary.

I'm absolutely emphatic on this point; the immeasurable human suffering is on the poverty advocates, no matter how well intentioned they once were. The field is now dogmatic, unable to recognize the harm its causing.
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  #433  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2022, 12:58 AM
officedweller officedweller is online now
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Probably the Robson IGA (though could be Robson Safeway):

Shoplifter allegedly pulls meat cleaver on Vancouver grocery worker following mask dispute
https://globalnews.ca/news/8487332/anti-mask-dispute-meat-cleaver-vancouver-grocery/
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  #434  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2022, 1:53 AM
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Probably the Robson IGA (though could be Robson Safeway):

Shoplifter allegedly pulls meat cleaver on Vancouver grocery worker following mask dispute
https://globalnews.ca/news/8487332/anti-mask-dispute-meat-cleaver-vancouver-grocery/
It's the IGA.. shown in the video..

"Addison said it is not known if Echlin was previously known to police but he said this is an example of increasingly violent behaviour officers are seeing in the downtown core."

Ron.
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  #435  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2022, 3:19 AM
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"Addison said it is not known if Echlin was previously known to police but he said this is an example of increasingly violent behaviour officers are seeing in the downtown core."
If only there was a free supply of safe drugs, this would have never happened. /s

Maybe the guy was job interviewing for a job at the meat department? I mean, why else would anyone be carrying a meat cleaver. All these shitheads are just down on their luck trying their best to start repaying the society, remember?
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  #436  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2022, 6:23 AM
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Housing first would make sense if those who lacked homes were, for example, primarily single mothers and forestry workers who have been laid off. But the people shooting heroin in my kid’s schoolyard, setting up tents in the park, and taking dumps outside my building are addicts, not single mothers.
This was a good and thoughtful post, and I am sure the book makes many good points through well-reasoned argument.

However, I would challenge the idea that addicts and laid-off individuals are separate groups comprised of different people. Try to convince any small town in Texas or Alberta or the rust belt where an opioid epidemic followed the drying up of oil wells or the outsourcing of steal production that mental health issues aren't positively correlated with a lack of economic opportunities.
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  #437  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2022, 4:04 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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It's the IGA.. shown in the video..

"Addison said it is not known if Echlin was previously known to police but he said this is an example of increasingly violent behaviour officers are seeing in the downtown core."

Ron.
Why would anyone want to work at that IGA, it's always going through crap like this.
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  #438  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2022, 4:50 PM
Skook Skook is offline
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Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
This was a good and thoughtful post, and I am sure the book makes many good points through well-reasoned argument.

However, I would challenge the idea that addicts and laid-off individuals are separate groups comprised of different people. Try to convince any small town in Texas or Alberta or the rust belt where an opioid epidemic followed the drying up of oil wells or the outsourcing of steal production that mental health issues aren't positively correlated with a lack of economic opportunities.
You make a valid point. Shellenberger does address this in the book. The gist of it is that while poverty may lead to addiction, it is the addiction that tips someone over into homelessness, not the poverty. Most poor people are not drug addicts, and not all drug addicts are poor (although likely to end up poor if untreated).

To quote from the book: “While the homeless are poor, few poor people live on the streets. Nearly 90,000 people in San Francisco live in poverty, but just over 8,000 are homeless. The vast majority of people, including very poor people who are priced out of San Francisco’s expensive rental markets, move out of the city or move in with friends or family. Vanishingly few decide to pitch a tent on the filthiest sidewalks in America.”

According to studies cited in the book, most who end up in the streets have drug or alcohol problems (but mostly drugs), often untreated mental illness and, importantly, a lack of a functioning personal social network. Even most addicted people don’t end up on the streets – they move back to the prairies (or wherever), bunk in with friends, and eventually quit or seek treatment on their own, often under pressure from friends and family. People who lack that support (or drive it away with their behaviour while addicted) are the most at risk. Those who get laid off but don’t become addicts don’t end up in the DTES, they look for another job, re-train or go back to school, move back in with mom, or move to a cheaper city with more employment opportunities. It is overwhelmingly drug use that attracts a person to a shithole like Hastings Street and drug use that keeps them there.

But please read the book - Shellenberger makes the case so much better than I can.
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  #439  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2022, 5:47 PM
rofina rofina is offline
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This was a good and thoughtful post, and I am sure the book makes many good points through well-reasoned argument.
Appreciate your posts and perspective, would love to discuss a few points. I'm quoting you, but please don't take this personally, I think your post just captured a lot of broader ideas well.

Quote:
However, I would challenge the idea that addicts and laid-off individuals are separate groups comprised of different people.
I think this way of thinking is a massive problem in nearly all facets of society today; systemized grouping of people for purposes of easier administration of policy.

There is a lot of nuance in what "homeless" is;

1. Mental Health: Childhood trauma. Residential school trauma. Sex abuse. Schizophrenia, dementia, etc.

2. Criminal: Hustlers, pimps, drug dealers. Often users themselves. Profit off the situation and take advantage of chaos.

3. Economic: Working, cant afford a roof, perhaps some underlying stability issues, generally in need of assistance. Perhaps older, unemployable due to changing times, etc.

And like all things in life, those groups will overlap, but there are distinct differences in who these people are and what approach is needed.

Much of what we are doing today falls into the grouping mentality I mentioned above, in this thread we all interchangeably use "homeless, addict, mental health, etc" to convey points without giving proper understanding of what is being said.

These people have individual needs and require specialized approaches.

A housing first approach will make a much more dramatic difference in the life of someone who simply needs a helping hand up. They work minimum wage, cant afford to keep a roof overhead, maybe went through bankruptcy, have child payments to make, not enough money to make it all work and need help from spiraling towards other major negative outcomes.

Providing subsidized housing for that individual will have an order of magnitude more positive rate of outcome compared to group 1 for instance.

Providing housing to someone with deep rooted mental health problems is merely a small corner stone; these folks often do not have the learned ability to navigate the structures of society. Of course a roof overhead is fundamental, but we need to dispense with the notions that people with decades of struggle are going to resolve issues by simply having a home.

They often lost homes because they were unable to cope with mental pressures. They lost families because they were unable to cope with pressures. The amount of support needed here is grossly underestimated.

There is also the paradox that the opposite is also true; innumerable amount of recovered addicts will tell you they needed to hit bottom to bounce back.

The system we have in place is the perfect level of maximum damage; not enough support to heal, but just enough aid to allow someone to hit near bottom and tread along there.


Quote:
Try to convince any small town in Texas or Alberta or the rust belt where an opioid epidemic followed the drying up of oil wells or the outsourcing of steal production that mental health issues aren't positively correlated with a lack of economic opportunities.
A micro perspective is also of more benefit here.

Vancouver, San Francisco, Portland, LA are not dying steel towns. We do not have economic woes; the opposite the West Coast has been on a relentless boom for, 25 years now?

So while the macro does make sense to understand broader trends, our crisis is not the same as the one in Virginia where unemployed coal miners are dying by the tens of thousands to the opioids, despite it perhaps seeming rather parallel.
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  #440  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2022, 8:12 PM
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Bcasey25raptor Bcasey25raptor is online now
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Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth View Post
this may be an interesting facebook group to some of you. they post some of the depravity going on Downtown (and across the COV) on a daily basis. having lived downtown for 20+ years now I can say it has really gone downhill hard and fast over the last few years with the NDP in charge >>

https://www.facebook.com/groups/vancitypsychosis


enjoy
What a shitty troll group, you take this garbage seriously? Are you for real?

The people posting in there have no compassion and seem to be awfully Trumpian, thats who you think represents this city?

Van "shitty"

How mature, if they hate Vancouver that much, they should just leave it. We're doing a LOT for the people on the DTES, as for downtown being a crime ridden hellhole, what world do you people live in? Lived down there for YEARS, never once ever been a victim of crime.
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