Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[elly63]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I think they would have to have the stands on rails like rogers centre when it converted from mlb to cfl mode for more proper sight lines

That's right but that costs money and somebody has to suffer because it can't be perfect. AFAIK, it's never worked anywhere well, merely barely acceptable. They are just two configurations that can't be combined well.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by esquire

I remember stumbling upon an old newspaper article about Zenit St. Petersburg taking on a Manitoba all-star team back in Winnipeg back in 1960, and there were mentions of some other major European teams visiting in prior years as well. Seemed kind of odd, it's not like it was a big drawing event (only around 4,000 fans for Zenit) and I doubt the other cities on the tour would have pulled in a ton of money relative to the huge costs of international travel at that time.

Also, I just got my kid a Man City kit like the one your baby has and he's been wearing it for days on end...

It would be cool if someone put together a history of all notable visiting/touring clubs that played in Canada throughout history. And big name players that people either don't know about or forgot. Like Eusebio playing for Toronto Croatia or Maradona playing one game with his bro for Toronto Italia.

I picked up the Man City onesie and toddler Man U kit for 10 bucks each off Facebook. If I were diehard about one club then I'd consider ordering a new one. Looks like you're getting good value for it, regardless of what you paid.

I also have kits for them for all five TO teams, Team Canada, Liverpool, England, Michigan, Michigan St, Ohio St, Notre Dame, Steelers and Raiders. Most are 5 bucks some were even 2 bucks. There's even someone giving away 6m full official Ireland kit, but they're in Scarboro. And someone selling full Nike Brazil kit 12m for $5 in North York. And a free unofficial chelsea, also in Scarboro. No reason to head that way the last few months so I'll have to see if they still have them when I do. Same with a $5 Rangers onesie in Hamilton. There's also a few people selling youth official jerseys from Real, Bayern, etc. for $5. I totally feel like getting all these, but it'll be several years before I'd need them and I don't want to be a hoarder!

I see them pop up on Facebook and anytime I'm going somehwere, if that happens to be on the way then I'll pick it up. Thrift store also has things like that for a couple bucks. And of course, hand me downs. Bro in Law is a massive Leafs fan and has two kids. Bought all that stuff brand new, top of the line.

Even got band onesies like Beatles, PJ, Nirvana, Zepelin, ACDC, RHCP, Stones, Kiss, etc.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by megadude

It would be cool if someone put together a history of all notable visiting/touring clubs that played in Canada throughout history. And big name players that people either don't know about or forgot. Like Eusebio playing for Toronto Croatia or Maradona playing one game with his bro for Toronto Italia.

When you posted about Italians in Toronto you neglected one of the all time Italian greats Roberto Bettega

[elly63]

Toronto City

In 1961, along with industrialist Larry Myslivec and journalist Ed Fitken, Steve Stavro, a Macedonian Canadian businessman who would go on to own Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment, formed the Toronto City Soccer Club which played in the newly created Eastern Canada Professional Soccer League.

During its inaugural season the team featured several prominent footballers including Northern Ireland international Danny Blanchflower, England internationals Stanley Matthews and Johnny Haynes and Scottish internationals Jackie Mudie and Tommy Younger, notable as the last time the England, Scotland and Northern Ireland captains played on the same side. Younger also coached the team. City won the league in 1964, and in November of that year they offered the role of "manager-coach" to Stan Cullis. In January 1966 Stavro fell out with the league administrators and withdrew the team from the league.

[megadude]

Wasn't aware of any of these stories. How cool would it have been to watch these guys play up close in competitive matches, even if past their primes.

I saw Zico play for Flamengo at the Ex and I remember my dad showing me how he was dictating the game from deep in the first half and then how he was creating when we played more advanced in the second half. And he scored too.

Watching Beckham at the Dome in front of 50k was great too. He didn't have to be a great player anymore. Just watching his skill was enough. The spin he used to put on his crosses and all that. Just a pleasure to watch.

I might be messing up the names, but I recall my friend saying he got to watch Parma train at the Woodbridge Soccer Centre crica '95 and watch Zola and Stoichkov take turns trying to hit the bar from centre pitch. I have no recollection of Parma playing a friendly in Toronto though.

Anyway, what definitely did happen was in WC '94 tune ups, Canada played Germany at Varsity and Brazil at Commonwealth. I seem to recall Germany did training up at a resort in Muskoka or something? Reminds me of how German Ralf Souquet, one of the all time billiards greats, would come to warm up at a shitty plaza at Hurtonario and Dundas in Sauga in a basement pool hall called Silver Tips every year before the US Open 9 Ball in Virginia. Shitty plaza, but class operation with the best tables I ever played at. Was run by former Canadian snooker champion and a who's who of Canadian billiards used to show up there. Got to play one of the legends, Johnny Mora Sr. and got smoked 10-0 not surprisingly. Anyway, I only found out about Souquet after the fact so I never got to watch him play there. And TSN studios and Dave and Busters in Woodbridge used to host the Border Battle between Canada and US with absolute legends like Thorburn, Pagaluyan, Archer, Strickland, etc. I was just getting into pool and when I said to myself, I have to go check it out next year, they of course shut it down so I never got to see them. Anyway, I digress.

That Canada/Brazil was draw is top 5 moment in CMNT history. Brazil put out a proper squad too. Doesn't mean the players took it seriously, but there were legends on the pitch. Germany put a proper squad out there too and won 2-0.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by megadude

That Canada/Brazil was draw is top 5 moment in CMNT history. Brazil put out a proper squad too. Doesn't mean the players took it seriously, but there were legends on the pitch.

They certainly weren't trying to lose.

• Video Link

[elly63]

Originally Posted by megadude

Was run by former Canadian snooker champion and a who's who of Canadian billiards used to show up there.

I was into snooker during the glory days when Wych, Thorburn, Werbeniuk and Stevens were in the limelight in the UK, met Cliff around that time at a snooker clinic. And Cliff of course had the Don Larsen moment at the Crucible.

• Video Link

[elly63]

Just realizing I'm in the stadium thread, will stop with the off topic

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Reports on tsn and montreal gazette are the Bronfman group will soon release plans for the ballpark plan so they can host rays games 50% of the time. Could also be a potential host for a winter classic and some rumblings out there also as a potential new home for the Montreal Alouettes.

Anything is possible but I'd find it a bit surprising that there would be impetus in Montreal to built a new stadium for a part-time MLB team shared with another city (I mean, what would you call them, for starters?), when there wasn't the impetus for a stadium for a full-time club that Montreal could fully call its own?

An MLB-calibre stadium doesn't cost any less whether you build it for 40 games a season versus 80 games a season.

[elly63]

Bronfman's stadium plan coming soon
Montreal 690 Melnick in the Afternoon
Expos Nation's Matthew Ross joins Mitch Melnick to discuss his article in the Gazette concerning a potential new baseball stadium in Montreal and more.

After listening to this the idea made a little more sense to me. They would only have to sell 40 "summer" games. That is still equivalent to a whole MLS season (home and away games)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

Bronfman's stadium plan coming soon
Montreal 690 Melnick in the Afternoon
Expos Nation's Matthew Ross joins Mitch Melnick to discuss his article in the Gazette concerning a potential new baseball stadium in Montreal and more.

After listening to this the idea made a little more sense to me. They would only have to sell 40 "summer" games. That is still equivalent to a whole MLS season (home and away games)

Yeah, I know that only playing 40 games is a plus in terms of getting good attendance for each one.

It's also quite telling when you compare as you say the number of times a soccer-specific stadium gets used, much less a football stadium.

But sharing a team like that is a double-edged sword.

I can see a big challenge in getting people in Montreal and Quebec to identify with a shared team, especially if the branding, name, logo isn't tailored to the market.

The public appetite for baseball in Montreal inasmuch as something like that could even exist is much more about the return of the Expos as it is about the return of baseball full stop.

And of course tinkering with the branding to cater to us may cause them problems in Florida.

Unless there is "dual" branding. I dunno... not an expert on MLB rules and regulations that might apply.

Also important would be where playoff games would be played if ever they make it that far.

I am sure there would be a plan for this well ahead of time (probably in advance of the team playing its first game in Montreal), but it's still a good question to ask.

[esquire]

I share Acajack's skepticism.

This plan saddles Montreal with 100% of the costs associated with a MLB team but only 50% of the benefits (assuming a 50/50 split of home dates).

If fans were willing to accept a multipurpose stadium along the lines of the traditional 60s/70s "donuts" that offer decent sightlines for both baseball and rectangle-field sports then perhaps it could work... you could rationalize it as a home for baseball, football and maybe even soccer, plus whatever else. But North American baseball fans have been conditioned to reject baseball played in anything other than a retro-style ballpark, so that's a non-starter.

So Montreal ends up ponying up for a ballpark that it gets to use for the summer. But what if the team makes the playoffs and plays in the World Series? Presumably by that point they would have decamped back to Florida.

This just seems like such a sketchy deal for Montreal. Even if the fans there pack the place for a season or two for the novelty/nostalgia factor, I can't see this rent-a-team arrangement having any lasting appeal.

[elly63]

At first I thought it was a stupid idea, but it is growing on me. Just as we will share a World Cup of soccer in 2026 and there was a Japan/Korea World Cup this too can be shared.

I think Bronfman and his group have had a lot of time to consider it. Yes, it differs greatly from my examples above but they show the idea of sharing is no longer unthinkable. The world has changed with the pandemic, anything can be considered, why not.

[J.OT13]

Nothing concrete yet, but a group in Ottawa want to build a world class aquatics centre and hotel at Hurdman, an empty field just south of Downtown and the University of Ottawa, well connected by active pathways and the transfer point between the South-East Transitway and O-Train Line 1 (and 3 by 2025). VIA Rail is one station away from the area. Facilities for other sports could also be included.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ot...!4d-75.6971931

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I share Acajack's skepticism.

This plan saddles Montreal with 100% of the costs associated with a MLB team but only 50% of the benefits (assuming a 50/50 split of home dates).

If fans were willing to accept a multipurpose stadium along the lines of the traditional 60s/70s "donuts" that offer decent sightlines for both baseball and rectangle-field sports then perhaps it could work... you could rationalize it as a home for baseball, football and maybe even soccer, plus whatever else. But North American baseball fans have been conditioned to reject baseball played in anything other than a retro-style ballpark, so that's a non-starter.

So Montreal ends up ponying up for a ballpark that it gets to use for the summer. But what if the team makes the playoffs and plays in the World Series? Presumably by that point they would have decamped back to Florida.

This just seems like such a sketchy deal for Montreal. Even if the fans there pack the place for a season or two for the novelty/nostalgia factor, I can't see this rent-a-team arrangement having any lasting appeal.

I can see Elly's point and am not willing to shoot this down just yet.

But there are still a lot of good questions that both you and I have.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can see Elly's point and am not willing to shoot this down just yet.

But there are still a lot of good questions that both you and I have.

You would think that a bunch of smart people have run the numbers and have concluded that it's a good idea if Bronfman wants to run with it. But how much of the business plan depends on the public purse to cover the gap between stadium construction costs and team profitability?

It's one thing to pony up for the "home team". As much as Edmonton got hosed on its arena deal, at the very least it was for the Edmonton Oilers... not the Tampa Bay Lightning.

Because that is the issue here... if Bronfman intends to pay for the entire stadium himself then there's no debate, he's spending his money however he sees fit and the rest of us have no say in that. But I doubt that's how this is going to play out.

[JHikka]

Montreal building a full MLB stadium for half a team seems pretty silly. Need more assurances from MLB prior to moving ahead with anything, i'd imagine.

Originally Posted by elly63

The only thing they could have learned from our World Championship teams was what NOT to do.

Anatoli Tarasov tried to travel abroad in the early 50s to study how Canadians developed their hockey teams but was denied by superiors. Tarasov was critical of other countries (like Czechoslovakia under Buckna) using Canadians to coach their national programs and simply becoming smaller versions of Canadian teams rather than using lessons-learned to develop a different kind of hockey altogether, specific to the country. Largely, Buckna (who was Canadian) was influential in how many European nations developed their games in the 40s and 50s, including the Soviets.

More importantly, though, Tarasov based a lot of his training for the national team on a book by Lloyd Percival, who had published a number of books in the 40s and 50s on training, diet, and sports science as a whole. Tarasov based a lot of his work on both Buckna and Percival in building the Soviet program.

More can be read here: https://boxscorenews.com/red-storm-r...156684-411.htm

Originally Posted by elly63

Since we've had our eyes opened though, best on best, head to head, we've dominated them. When the Soviets were dominating the World Championships (when we returned in 1977 after 7 years) we were in the midst of the playoffs and many of our best could not participate. But when you started to see larger numbers of Russians in the NHL and the same disadvantage applied to them their dominance pretty much stopped and Canada reemerged even with lesser players (because the playing field had evened)

We haven't had a true best on best since 2014 so it's tough to say where the countries stand today. Canada's likely on top for this 2022 cycle but after that things don't stack up as well for Canada versus Russia and other countries. Our development has really stalled in the past 20 years.

[MonctonRad]

The only way this daft project makes sense is if the end point is the return of the Montreal Expos. This could be a temporary stopgap, but I cannot see the city of Montreal supporting a temporary summertime team in the long run. What will kill this arrangement is when the Tampa team makes the World Series and all the games are played in Florida. Just imagine the (rightful) outrage in Montreal if this happens.

[elly63]

My issue is I see sharing the baseball club as being more feasible than sharing the baseball stadium itself. I hate the idea of a new modern stadium sitting empty (used for one sport) but see no way how to share the two configurations to the satisfaction of everyone. Especially as was mentioned, the concept of the old style ballpark with close sightlines.

But if sharing is being considered I won't crap on anything until I see the concept and later the final design.

The same applies to what might happen in Calgary someday. The only solution I see is to share the stadium and fieldhouse, but unfortunately a lot of people lost their poop over a very early, simple conceptual drawing. Remember, folks the early concept drawing for Regina looked absolutely nothing like the final result.

[suburbanite]

They're obviously betting on the 50/50 split quickly favouring Montreal as a full-time location for the Rays. I've been following the saga on the Ray's subreddit, and there's pretty good consensus that if this split happens, then the Rays days in Tampa are numbered.