Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[thurmas]

I am still waiting for Winnipeg Ice to come up with a new arena proposal

[O-tacular]

Mayor Gondek is saying there are other interested parties looking at the Event Centre project. Seems like wishful thinking or posturing to me. Contrary to Thurmas' prediction of the Balzac Flames I think if they don't come back to the table we will see the Tsuut'ina Flames playing beside the Costco parking lot on the reserve. The best option is still for both parties to regroup in another few months and hammer out a new deal.

[WhipperSnapper]

Tsuut'ina Nation would be complete fools to partner in that.

Bsst option is to create a multi-year plan to improve the Saddledome and wait out a change in Flames ownership.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I realize I am 3 .. nearly 4 years late to this reply. However, I did just find this forum a month ago or so and have been catching up what has been said.

The Nanaimo arena situation is in such a weird place. Realistically they could handle a WHL team. But Frank Crane arena is never going to be more than Junior A arena.


There is also the conundrum of where do you put a new "WHL" viable arena. I know the downtown proposal was shut down within minutes of it being proposed. Maybe somewhere else in Beban park that takes away from the ball fields / exhibition building. It will be interesting to see what happens in Nanaimo if the population keeps rising and rising. And demand for a slightly(?)/bigger(?) jump in level of sports.

That arena in Nanaimo might have worked as a WHL arena 30 years ago but it wouldn't anymore, except on a temporary basis. But I could see Nanaimo working out very nicely as a WHL city if it gets a new arena built just given the sheer population of the city.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Mayor Gondek is saying there are other interested parties looking at the Event Centre project. Seems like wishful thinking or posturing to me.

Clearly our new Mayor wants to negotiate in public. I really struggle that there is a white knight waiting in the wings with deep pockets champing at the bit to ride in and save the day.

Until the parties can figure out away to have constructive dialogue, I fear that the project is DOA. Both CSEC and the City are acting like pedantic children.

The biggest shame in all of it is without the event center to anchor the revitalization of the area, any of the monies that were forecasted to be raised through the levy and ticket surtax are gone. Perhaps surface parking is the highest and best use for those parcels.

I thought I read Braid suggesting they get Davison back, but I don't know if he'd touch it with a 10 foot pole.

It's a shame that it's gotten this far, but when you have a dysfunctional relationship such as this, it really was the only outcome.

I doubt very much that the development approval process would have been this acrimonious had CMLC been in charge. And maybe that's the point.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Mayor Gondek is saying there are other interested parties looking at the Event Centre project. Seems like wishful thinking or posturing to me. Contrary to Thurmas' prediction of the Balzac Flames I think if they don't come back to the table we will see the Tsuut'ina Flames playing beside the Costco parking lot on the reserve. The best option is still for both parties to regroup in another few months and hammer out a new deal.

I hope they get back to the table. Being a cfl fan I wish there was more urgency on a mcmahon stadium renovation

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I hope they get back to the table. Being a cfl fan I wish there was more urgency on a mcmahon stadium renovation

If money is going to be an issue with a new arena I imagine it would be an even bigger issue on a new stadium.

---

This picture came up in my feed this week. Varsity Stadium in 1952, playing host to Tottenham versus Man Utd. Crowd on the day was 25,431. View is from the North towards UofT with Bloor Street in the foreground.

[esquire]

^ Great photo. That stadium survived pretty well intact until 2002 when it was demolished. I remember stumbling upon it in the late 90s... I was surprised to see it still existing in the exact same form as I had remembered seeing in historical pictures from the early/mid 20th century.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Great photo. That stadium survived pretty well intact until 2002 when it was demolished. I remember stumbling upon it in the late 90s... I was surprised to see it still existing in the exact same form as I had remembered seeing in historical pictures from the early/mid 20th century.

Indeed. Here it is in 1980:




More photos here: https://www.torontojourney416.com/varsity-stadium/

I won't say that I hate the current configuration but I really wish it lost the running track and retained more seating capacity to enable it to host larger-scale events.

[esquire]

The new configuration is nice and is well suited to the needs of USports, but yeah, it isn't of much use for larger events.

The current format is basically what I was expecting when I first saw the place 25 years ago. I was shocked to see it was a pro stadium (by the standards of the 1950s) basically frozen in time. It would have been nice to have kept the old venue around but given its age, I can certainly understand why the U of T didn't. In some respects it's amazing that they kept it around as long as they did... I'm sure even basic maintenance to keep the lights on in the stands couldn't have been cheap.

[elly63]

It's too bad I can't find the graphic for the Argo/CSA/U of T stadium that was going to replace Varsity. I'll find it somewhere and post it when I do.

Funny how things turned out, that they ended up basically the way they were originally intended.

New stadium for Argos, Canadian soccer
CBC Sports May 21, 2004

[megadude]

Wait, what? I was not aware of that game. It's funny when you think of friendlies being played in ancient times far away because you wonder if it was worth the effort. Now you do it to build your international fanbase, it's somewhere in the region of an upcoming tournament and super jacked up gate receipts (part of a regional tour) and sometimes an added appearance fee.

Was it worth the effort back then? I just googled that tour and here it is below. I wonder how much more financially lucrative it was to do this tour than say doing it around the British Isles or nearby on the continent. I see that they were the reigning champs of England, but only their third title and first in forty years. I suppose they might not have drawn as well close to home as they would have in front of curious fans in a far away place.

Turns out they also played at Varsity in 1970 against Celtic. I do recall their 2010 game at Celtic at the Dome and I remember Sir Alex said he was doing a family reunion and many of his relatives moved away to Toronto.

Speaking of Man U, just took this pic a couple days ago. Also took one of me in my retro kit (which I just got) with the baby and toddler and sent it to my friend who is a massive fan.









Manchester United’s 1952 North American tour results:

May 8, 1952 Kearny, New Jersey
Attendance:
Manchester United 4, New Jersey All-Stars 0

May 11, 1952 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Attendance:
Manchester United 4, Philadelphia All-Stars 0

May 13, 1952 Delorimier Stadium, Montreal, Quebec
Attendance: 6,000
Manchester United 10, Montreal All-Stars 0

May 18, 1952 Randall’s Island, New York City
Attendance:
Manchester United 5, American Soccer League All-Stars 1

May 21, 1952 Fall River Stadium, Fall River, Massachusetts
Attendance: 3,200
Manchester United 11, Fall River Stars 1

May 25, 1952 Triborough Stadium, Randall’s Island, New York City
Attendance: 5,000
Manchester United 5, Stuttgarter Kickers 2

May 27, 1952 Chicago, Illinois
Attendance:
Manchester United 6, Chicago All-Stars 1

June 1, 1952 East Los Angeles Stadium, Los Angeles, California
Attendance: 12,132
Manchester United 2, Atlas of Mexico 0

June 8, 1952 East Los Angeles Stadium, Los Angeles, California
Attendance: 12,000
Manchester United 4, Atlas of Mexico 3

June 12, 1952 University of Detroit Stadium, Detroit, Michigan
Attendance: 10,000
Manchester United 4, Ulster United 2

June 14, 1952 Varsity Stadium, Toronto
Attendance: 25,341
Manchester United 0, Tottenham Hotspurs 5

June 15, 1952 Yankee Stadium, New York City
Attendance: 24,582
Manchester United 1, Tottenham Hotspurs 7

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Indeed. Here it is in 1980:




More photos here: https://www.torontojourney416.com/varsity-stadium/

I won't say that I hate the current configuration but I really wish it lost the running track and retained more seating capacity to enable it to host larger-scale events.

I can eventually see Varsity Field move to the Scarborough campus.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by megadude

Wait, what? I was not aware of that game. It's funny when you think of friendlies being played in ancient times far away because you wonder if it was worth the effort. Now you do it to build your international fanbase, it's somewhere in the region of an upcoming tournament and super jacked up gate receipts (part of a regional tour) and sometimes an added appearance fee.

Was it worth the effort back then? I just googled that tour and here it is below. I wonder how much more financially lucrative it was to do this tour than say doing it around the British Isles or nearby on the continent. I see that they were the reigning champs of England, but only their third title and first in forty years. I suppose they might not have drawn as well close to home as they would have in front of curious fans in a far away place.

I remember stumbling upon an old newspaper article about Zenit St. Petersburg taking on a Manitoba all-star team back in Winnipeg back in 1960, and there were mentions of some other major European teams visiting in prior years as well. Seemed kind of odd, it's not like it was a big drawing event (only around 4,000 fans for Zenit) and I doubt the other cities on the tour would have pulled in a ton of money relative to the huge costs of international travel at that time.

Also, I just got my kid a Man City kit like the one your baby has and he's been wearing it for days on end...

[JHikka]

There was definitely value in going on tours in the 50s/60s/70s, both for marketing exposure and for improved training and tactics. There's a school of thought that explains Western Europe's rise and development of football in the early 20th century as being down to the ability to interact with millions within a short distance and being able to develop tactics and theories through frequent play. I'm sure Toronto had enough Brits living there at the time that both Tottenham and Man Utd saw value in playing in front of them.

In hockey, Canada had a tough time with the Soviets in the Summit Series because they had very little intel and knowledge of how the Soviets played (and were overconfident) - the Soviets had, in part, based their development system on how Canadians played at the World Championships. After the 1972 and 1974 series, Canada sent coaches to Moscow to see how they developed their players. There's a really good NFB film about the UBC hockey team going to China in 1973 for exhibition matches. There's plenty of examples from this time.

Now it's far easier to find training videos online, to talk and chat with people online, and to watch matches from anywhere in the world, so tours have become mostly money-grabs and PR experiments.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

There's a really good NFB film about the UBC hockey team going to China in 1973 for exhibition matches.

• Video Link

[thurmas]

Reports on tsn and montreal gazette are the Bronfman group will soon release plans for the ballpark plan so they can host rays games 50% of the time. Could also be a potential host for a winter classic and some rumblings out there also as a potential new home for the Montreal Alouettes.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Reports on tsn and montreal gazette are the Bronfman group will soon release plans for the ballpark plan so they can host rays games 50% of the time. Could also be a potential host for a winter classic and some rumblings out there also as a potential new home for the Montreal Alouettes.

I have seen it before about the Als being involved in this (possibly coming from Bronfman himself) but I'm relying on memory and could be wrong on that.

I also believe the synergies might be good for the Als but in no way do I believe it could physically work with sightlines that would be better or even close to what they have now. To convert from a proper baseball configuration to football would require more cost involvement that I am sure anyone would want and also likely negatively affect the sole reason for the stadium, baseball.

I would love if it could be made to happen properly but like the example below, I doubt it.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

- the Soviets had, in part, based their development system on how Canadians played at the World Championships.

The only thing they could have learned from our World Championship teams was what NOT to do. Until Father Bauer came around in the 60s with the concept of a national team (mostly composed of college kids and a few pros who were reinstated amateurs) we were sending the Allan Cup champs. They were amateur Senior level hockey players who were, if you think about it, mostly not at the level of NHL/AHL/CHL/IHL pros. So while the Soviets were sending their best, we were sending players who were hundreds of places beyond our best.

Tarasov, who was a visionary, sourced another visionary who was well ahead of his time, Lloyd Percival. The early Soviet pioneers had no problem admitting Percival's The Hockey Handbook was like a Bible to them.

Some coaches did go over to the Soviet Union one of whom was ironically Fred Shero, coach of the "Broad Street Bullies" but they were learning concepts of fitness and technique that we already had at our disposal.

Since we've had our eyes opened though, best on best, head to head, we've dominated them. When the Soviets were dominating the World Championships (when we returned in 1977 after 7 years) we were in the midst of the playoffs and many of our best could not participate. But when you started to see larger numbers of Russians in the NHL and the same disadvantage applied to them their dominance pretty much stopped and Canada reemerged even with lesser players (because the playing field had evened)

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by elly63

I have seen it before about the Als being involved in this (possibly coming from Bronfman himself) but I'm relying on memory and could be wrong on that.

I also believe the synergies might be good for the Als but in no way do I believe it could physically work with sightlines that would be better or even close to what they have now. To convert from a proper baseball configuration to football would require more cost involvement that I am sure anyone would want and also likely negatively affect the sole reason for the stadium, baseball.

I would love if it could be made to happen properly but like the example below, I doubt it.

I think they would have to have the stands on rails like rogers centre when it converted from mlb to cfl mode for more proper sight lines