PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Skintreesnail]

I agree that KOP is a huge employer and I suppose the new urbanism comments are fair, but that doesn't mean we need to drop 2 billion on the nhsl extension. the fact is KOP is completely designed for the automobile and is not pedestrian friendly in any way. Sure, KOP has town center now, but as already stated there isn't even a stop planned there. If there was a massive development plan for these stops with pedestrian elements included, then maybe I'd feel different. But there isn't. Just stops that drop you nowhere. a regional rail stop in coordination with the planed Amtrak route to reading, with shuttles to the different office parks and mall makes a whole lot more sense. There are so many better projects that septa should be spending that money on.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

But why blame the suburbs? Many suburban regions are more strategic with economic friendliness. Philadelphia leaders could do the exact same thing, and I guarantee it would steal way more thunder than currently from cities all over the country, rather than musical chairs with the suburbs.

Who's "blaming the suburbs"? I'm literally saying we, as a region, should be regionally planning to invest in actually established communities and towns. KOP isn't a town. It's a bunch of parking lots and office parks, that a handful of rich people are looking to profit off of and they seem to have the ear of the influential people who happen to be from the same town lol... How cool would it be if, instead of planning to turn the parking lots of KOP into Buckhead Atlanta, there was a concerted effort to build out Upper Darby like Long Island City? Or Camden like Jersey City? Or any number of towns that literally have a train station and "bones" already?

And Summers already explained in great detail, but I want to emphasize your baseless comment... "literally who cares? It's a mall". Like what?! Upper Merion at large is far more than "a mall", it is a top 5 employment hub in the entire state. I don't know why people here hate that so much?... Many on here trash the rest of the state for a crappy economy and lack of jobs, and our own suburbs are home to several massive economic centers, KoP leading the bunch. I generally agree with your posts, but I'm lost on this on... And again, to blame Philadelphia's economic woes on KoP is silly to me. So Idk...

I can imagine if someone did not know what we were talking about and read the descriptions that you and summers come up with for KOP you would think you guys were describing Rodeo drive . Not the very normal and average looking mall it actually is: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0866837,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

I know you guys are completely content with it, but I kind of find it a bit embarrassing that the most "fancy and classy shopping" spot in the region is that.

[Busy Bee]

It seems obvious, but to many people in power, not so much...

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

How cool would it be to, instead of planning to turn the parking lots of KOP into Buckhead Atlanta, there was a concerted effort to build out Upper Darby like Long Island City? Or Camden like Jersey City? Or any number of towns that literally have a train station and "bones" already?

Or focussing the recent KOP pedestrianification energy on the somewhat down on it's luck, long in the tooth county seat next door with urban bones and not one but two transit lines

[iheartphilly]

The American Dream Meadowlands Complex is huge in E. Rutherford NJ. It's a new take on mega shopping mall so to speak. There's an indoor ski slope, waterpark, nickelodeon universe and 6 anchor tenants.

www.americandream.com

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Who's "blaming the suburbs"? I'm literally saying we, as a region, should be regionally planning to invest in actually established communities and towns. KOP isn't a town. It's a bunch of parking lots and office parks, that a handful of rich people are looking to profit off of and they seem to have the ear of the influential people who happen to be from the same town lol... How cool would it be if, instead of planning to turn the parking lots of KOP into Buckhead Atlanta, there was a concerted effort to build out Upper Darby like Long Island City? Or Camden like Jersey City? Or any number of towns that literally have a train station and "bones" already?

I can imagine if someone did not know what we were talking about and read the descriptions that you and summers come up with for KOP you would think you guys were describing Rodeo drive . Not the very normal and average looking mall it actually is: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0866837,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

I know you guys are completely content with it, but I kind of find it a bit embarrassing that the most "fancy and classy shopping" spot in the region is that.

Average looking, yes. Average mall, no. Our response was to you downplaying it's significance in the retail world. It's a premiere shopping destination, even if it's a behemoth. We weren't comparing aesthetics to Rodeo Drive.

And I never said I was content with it, it's just the way it is. I would love to take the mall and disperse it through Center City and Ardmore, but that ain't happening. And the KoP economy (Upper Merion at large) is a force that is here to stay (love it or hate it). Part of my larger point.

But we can at least agree that we want the best for the city and region, we just interpret some pieces differently. (Also I am excited to see energy trickling into nearby Norristown, which has long been an outlier among the suburban county seats).

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by steve_phl

Walked by Free People today and a sign in the window confirms they are closing 1/15 and moving: “We’ll be opening our new space on Walnut Street summer 2022”.

Thank God lol. Betting it’s to one of the larger vacant spaces on the 1700 block.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Average looking, yes. Average mall, no. Our response was to you downplaying it's significance in the retail world. It's a premiere shopping destination, even if it's a behemoth. We weren't comparing aesthetics to Rodeo Drive.

And I never said I was content with it, it's just the way it is. I would love to take the mall and disperse it through Center City and Ardmore, but that ain't happening. And the KoP economy (Upper Merion at large) is a force that is here to stay (love it or hate it). Part of my larger point.

But we can at least agree that we want the best for the city and region, we just interpret some pieces differently. (Also I am excited to see energy trickling into nearby Norristown, which has long been an outlier among the suburban county seats).

I think you and summers are making persuasive points about the importance of KOP economically to our region but you haven't really addressed the main points TempleGuy and others are making specifically in regards to this rail line.

No matter how important it is, it's still a surban as hell shopping mall and a bunch of office parks. Are they trying to improve? Sure. And that's great, more power to them. Maybe some day KOP will be a place that can actually take advantage of a rail line and the best place to put train stations will be dense mixed use neighborhoods instead of barren highways and parking lots, but they're not even remotely there yet and I can't even begin to understand why this KOP line is a priority for anyone. It's an extraordinarily car centric area that can't take anywhere near full advantage of a rail line.

We live in one of the densest metros in the country, there is so much room to improve septa in areas that are ready to reap the benefits, many of them right in Philly itself. Why should we spend 2 billion to put a square peg in a round hole?

Also, just because KOP is currently economically important, I think you have to ask yourself, what does the Philadelphia region as whole stand to benefit from encouraging it to become more economically important? Why are we investing 2 billion into the rail line to KOP as opposed to other places? KOP is clearly important, but it's filling an autocentric niche in our metro. What is to be gained by investing tons of money to try and make it something that it's not? If people move away from autocentric thinking in the next few decades, what wrong jobs and retail moving away from KOP? Looking holistically at what would be best for the entire metro, why would it be a problem if a some of these jobs and stores that used to be in Philly and surrounding dense towns started to head back where they came from?

Saying there is a lot of jobs and retail in KOP RIGHT NOW so we must ensure they're able to maintain that and grow by becoming an entirely different type of dense mass transit served location and we must pay any price tag to ensure that future seems like real prisoner of the moment type thinking.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I think you and summers are making persuasive points about the importance of KOP economically to our region but you haven't really addressed the main points TempleGuy and others are making specifically in regards to this rail line.

No matter how important it is, it's still a surban as hell shopping mall and a bunch of office parks. Are they trying to improve? Sure. And that's great, more power to them. Maybe some day KOP will be a place that can actually take advantage of a rail line and the best place to put train stations will be dense mixed use neighborhoods instead of barren highways and parking lots, but they're not even remotely there yet and I can't even begin to understand why this KOP line is a priority for anyone. It's an extraordinarily car centric area that can't take anywhere near full advantage of a rail line.

We live in one of the densest metros in the country, there is so much room to improve septa in areas that are ready to reap the benefits, many of them right in Philly itself. Why should we spend 2 billion to put a square peg in a round hole?

Also, just because KOP is currently economically important, I think you have to ask yourself, what does the Philadelphia region as whole stand to benefit from encouraging it to become more economically important? Why are we investing 2 billion into the rail line to KOP as opposed to other places? KOP is clearly important, but it's filling an autocentric niche in our metro. What is to be gained by investing tons of money to try and make it something that it's not? If people move away from autocentric thinking in the next few decades, what wrong jobs and retail moving away from KOP? Looking holistically at what would be best for the entire metro, why would it be a problem if a some of these jobs and stores that used to be in Philly and surrounding dense towns started to head back where they came from?

Saying there is a lot of jobs and retail in KOP RIGHT NOW so we must ensure they're able to maintain that and grow by becoming an entirely different type of dense mass transit served location and we must pay any price tag to ensure that future seems like real prisoner of the moment type thinking.

Good post. I'm glad you understood our points about KoPs economic and retail importance (love it or hate it).

But I also don't think this rail line should be a priority of Septa, as explained by many. We all shared several other SEPTA capital improvement tasks (mostly in the city) that should happen ASAP. Plus, the extension proposal for KoP dropped the ball, and should be scrapped and restarted. I would still like to see a better plan executed someday, but KoP will continue to grow and adapt without a rail line as it has for years, therefore Septa should focus on the laundry list of improvements needed IN Philadelphia, most of which will cost far less than this messy plan. Summers might feel differently in that regard.

Separately, I am happy to see the Media/Elwyn line extension moving along. I drove by on Route 1 over Christmas, a huge project, that entire stretch has changed so much from my days working at the Y.

Anyways, I will get back on topic, but good to have a fruitful debate that didn't turn into threats and screaming (like another group I know, lol).

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by steve_phl

Walked by Free People today and a sign in the window confirms they are closing 1/15 and moving: “We’ll be opening our new space on Walnut Street summer 2022”.

Forgot to post this the other day but I checked and while Free People is moving, Barbour is closing and has no plans to relocate. Not sure about anything else, though I'm guessing Williams Sonoma is getting kicked out of the Bellevue as part of their remodel, since it seems like they've gotten rid of every tenant in advance of that.

Re: KOP, I have a lot of thoughts on the subject, but just some bullet points:

• The KOP rail extension is a waste of time and money, though as explained earlier I can see why SEPTA tried to go ahead with it. But it really just seems pointless and they need to stop moving forward on it and cut their losses.
  
• I don't think the KOP mall is going anywhere anytime soon. Like others have mentioned, it's one of the top 5 or so malls in the entire country. While unfortunately (lol) having a top 5 mall isn't necessarily the best thing in the world, it's not going anywhere. And I think that's fine! We need to learn to appreciate it for what it is and coexist.
  
• I think some of you underrate the reputation KOP has among people outside the Philly region tbh. It's not quite Mall of America levels of name recognition, but it's at least equal to, for example, South Coast Plaza, particularly among New Yorkers. And that reputation translates into visitors and $$$.
  
• KOP Town Center is fine, I guess, but it's completely surrounded by highways and I don't really see what the plan or endgame is for it. Unless they're going to demolish the Wegman's, Walmart, and CHOP buildings and densify the entire area between the highways (LOL obviously nothing like this would ever even be considered), I can't help but think...what was even the point? It seems destined to become a white elephant in a suburban-style area. Full disclosure: I'm not really a fan of New Urbanism in general, and I see this the KOP Town Center as a typical example of it.
  
• If KOP didn't exist, the high-end retail stores would just find another (suburban) location rather than relocate to Walnut Street. Maybe some would, but not the vast majority, IMO.
  
• People talk about how the City needs to be more competitive with the suburbs, but (while I'm not defending the status quo as perfect, or anything close to it) I think we need to realize that retail is not doing well in general, and the City is still seeing some job growth through biotech, etc. And similarly, I think we need to give up on the dream that Vanguard/etc. is going to move their HQ into Center City - even if you cut all the relevant taxes to 0%, it's just not going to happen lol. (That said, if I was Mayor I would throw all the money in the City treasury at Comcast to get them to move NBCUniversal to Center City...but that would also still not happen.)

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by iamrobk;9496004[*

People talk about how the City needs to be more competitive with the suburbs, but (while I'm not defending the status quo as perfect, or anything close to it) I think we need to realize that retail is not doing well in general, and the City is still seeing some job growth through biotech, etc. And similarly, I think we need to give up on the dream that Vanguard/etc. is going to move their HQ into Center City - even if you cut all the relevant taxes to 0%, it's just not going to happen lol. (That said, if I was Mayor I would throw all the money in the City treasury at Comcast to get them to move NBCUniversal to Center City...but that would also still not happen.)[/LIST]

I think this is actually a much more important conversation at the moment than anything related to retail or large suburban malls. Not trying to dismiss the dialogue or others' contributions--it's still a good topic--but the future of the economy and its implications for job/office trends seems like a much more critical topic for Philadelphia and the region overall. Things like retail are always secondary and follow economic success from local business/employment conditions, not vice versa.

I agree that the focusing on "luring" companies from the suburbs is a fool's errand at this point, and it has very little ROI. In fact, Philly's lack of historic success on that front may have been a blessing in disguise. Cities with higher numbers of "desk job" workers--precisely the kind of employees who work at a company like Vanguard--absolutely have more of an uphill battle to effectively lobby companies to get their workers to commute downtown again in the future. Philadelphia has its own challenges on that front, but it doesn't have to grovel to get back the commuters it never had.

Philadelphia is MUCH better off putting every effort into nurturing its startup companies--many of which are showing immense promise--by using every tool it has to keep them established and growing in the city.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by iamrobk

Probably Suburban Square to be honest. And if some of these luxury brands thought the Philly region could support two stores instead of just one, it wouldn't surprise me if they opened a second store in Cherry Hill before Center City.

Fair point. Suburban Square is growing but still fairly small. Personally don't love SS, but don't hate it either. It's a fine little outdoor mall, directly on the main line in a dense "streetcar" suburb not too far out. Ardmore is lovely. I guess that's a different discussion though.

I think calculus changes based on how you word the hypothetical: What if KoP disappeared today vs what if KoP never existed. To be clear, I view this very much as hypothetical. I don't doubt KoP's financial success or staying power. I'm sure it's great for Simon and the retailers (outside of pandemic concerns). I just don't think it's great for Philadelphia.

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

It's absolutely up for debate. It's literally just a mall that could have been positioned anywhere.

The "Tyson's Corner" edge city dream that some people have is wildly out of touch with reality.

[...]

If you really read their project plan more closely too, they expect a lot of the riders to be mall workers. They have a whole section on their site titled "Will the extension cause litter and crime?". Talk about some "coded language". And let's be real, those paragraphs represent more of a concern for "the community" than I have ever seen SEPTA make towards the city. Why? Because SEPTA is almost completely ran by Montgomery County officials. Leslie Richards is looking out for her own.

So if you own property around the Mall or already a resident of the area, I'm sure you feel like you are personally gaining something. For the rest of the 5.5 million people in the Philadelphia area that don't go that way very often too bad, SEPTA's "broke" and won't increase or improve service.

Agree with all of this.

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I also understand we are all urbanists and love the city, but I don't have a disdain for KoP, I think it's fantastic that the Philadelphia region has powerhouse suburban hubs. The mentality shouldn't be Philadelphia vs. the Suburbs, it should be a unified region against New York, DC, Harrisburg, etc. The KoP resentment should be geared toward City Leaders for the consistent a@@ backward approach to simple economics. If Philadelphia suddenly adopted a pro-economic growth strategy I doubt it would affect KoP, but it would certainly poke at the side of DC, Boston, New York, etc. I may be misinterpreting, but it feels like some place blame on KoP for Philadelphia's economic shortcomings, I don't see it like that. But agree to disagree if that is the case.

I mean no offense here, but I don't think you have any idea what an urbanist is. This is not a city vs city discussion. I personally love Boston, NYC, and even DC. I want them all to thrive. I want the sprawling, unwalkable, car-centric suburbs that surround each of them to not exist. I do understand that KoP is meeting customer demand. I know this is what people want. Doesn't mean I can't lament that fact.

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

However, I agree with the group that Septa can accomplish a lot more IN Philadelphia before focusing on the KoP rail line. And if the rail line must happen, they need to start over.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

And again, to blame Philadelphia's economic woes on KoP is silly to me. So Idk...

I don't think anyone is doing that. I think most here agree that City Council is a mess and I doubt the Kenney administration has many defenders at this point. There are many many factors that the city needs to address. Some that should be easy but somehow get messed up and others that are nearly intractable but that we need to fight to improve anyway. That said, I don't know how anyone can dismiss the argument that KoP is pulling jobs and money away from the city. I'm not assigning fault for why that is, only stating that it is.

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Who's "blaming the suburbs"? I'm literally saying we, as a region, should be regionally planning to invest in actually established communities and towns. KOP isn't a town. It's a bunch of parking lots and office parks, that a handful of rich people are looking to profit off of and they seem to have the ear of the influential people who happen to be from the same town lol... How cool would it be if, instead of planning to turn the parking lots of KOP into Buckhead Atlanta, there was a concerted effort to build out Upper Darby like Long Island City? Or Camden like Jersey City? Or any number of towns that literally have a train station and "bones" already?

I can imagine if someone did not know what we were talking about and read the descriptions that you and summers come up with for KOP you would think you guys were describing Rodeo drive . Not the very normal and average looking mall it actually is: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0866837,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

I know you guys are completely content with it, but I kind of find it a bit embarrassing that the most "fancy and classy shopping" spot in the region is that.

+1 again

Originally Posted by summersm343

100% yes. KOP adds a new urbanism area that the Philadelphia region is lacking.

Does it though?

Originally Posted by allovertown

I think you and summers are making persuasive points about the importance of KOP economically to our region but you haven't really addressed the main points TempleGuy and others are making specifically in regards to this rail line.

No matter how important it is, it's still a surban as hell shopping mall and a bunch of office parks. Are they trying to improve? Sure. And that's great, more power to them. Maybe some day KOP will be a place that can actually take advantage of a rail line and the best place to put train stations will be dense mixed use neighborhoods instead of barren highways and parking lots, but they're not even remotely there yet and I can't even begin to understand why this KOP line is a priority for anyone. It's an extraordinarily car centric area that can't take anywhere near full advantage of a rail line.

We live in one of the densest metros in the country, there is so much room to improve septa in areas that are ready to reap the benefits, many of them right in Philly itself. Why should we spend 2 billion to put a square peg in a round hole?

Also, just because KOP is currently economically important, I think you have to ask yourself, what does the Philadelphia region as whole stand to benefit from encouraging it to become more economically important? Why are we investing 2 billion into the rail line to KOP as opposed to other places? KOP is clearly important, but it's filling an autocentric niche in our metro. What is to be gained by investing tons of money to try and make it something that it's not? If people move away from autocentric thinking in the next few decades, what wrong jobs and retail moving away from KOP? Looking holistically at what would be best for the entire metro, why would it be a problem if a some of these jobs and stores that used to be in Philly and surrounding dense towns started to head back where they came from?

Saying there is a lot of jobs and retail in KOP RIGHT NOW so we must ensure they're able to maintain that and grow by becoming an entirely different type of dense mass transit served location and we must pay any price tag to ensure that future seems like real prisoner of the moment type thinking.

Exactly.

[3rd&Brown]

I 100% agree the Broad Street Extension of the subway to the Navy Yard should take precedent over the extension to KOP, but it's naive of us to think KOP won't change zoning in the interim to encourage denser development around the stops leading up to their opening.

It 100% will. The status quo will not hold.

[iheartphilly]

^
Bingo!

[summersm343]

1. We live in a country that favors suburban living and car culture above all else. Unfortunately, we don't live in Europe which tends to favor cities, transit and walkability.

2. Because of that, KOP and KOP mall are not going anywhere. We should be rooting for it's success and further urbanization and densification to become something similar to Buckhead or Tyson's Corner.

3. I do agree that KOP needs and deserves realistic transit options. Why? It's the 3rd largest employment hub in the region, the mall is a HUGE tourist attraction and actually an asset to the region, and KOP will continue to build up and densify. That's doesn't mean I agree that it takes precedence over many other needed transit projects in the region. I also don't agree with the current route as planned.

The KOP Rail Line should take this route:
-Branch off from the NHSL where it does, but get rid of the Henderson Road station. It's entirely redundant since there's already a station at Dekalb Street in Bridgeport.

-Keep the station at Allendale Road. This will be the main station for the KOP Mall. HOWEVER, it needs to be integrated into the mall better. Maybe even built INTO the mall so people don't even have to walk outside onto the street. If that's not an option, there needs to be better pedestrian connections to Court Boulevard so people can get off of the train and enter the mall here easily by the Cheesecake Factory and Urban Outfitters.

-From here on out, the line needs to be ENTIRELY rerouted. The Mall Boulevard station needs to be moved down more next to the True Food Kitchen, or at the intersection of Mall Blvd and Goddard Blvd. Why? Simon is planning a complete outdoor mixed use development where the old vacant JC Penny is and some of the surrounding parking lots.

-Then, from Mall Blvd, the rail line needs to head to Gulph Road via a few possible routes, with a station located at Gulph Road and Goddard Boulevard to service the KOP Town Center.

-Then, the rail line needs to head down Gulph Road where there will be a station at Gulph Road and First Avenue. This station would service the jobs and office buildings there, the Valley Forge Casino, Top Golf, and plus, Upper Merion and KOP have a master plan to urbanize First Avenue and the surrounding area and make the whole thing more walkable.

-LASTLY, the rail line can continue down Gulph Road where there can be the final station at Gulph Road and Valley Forge Road to service Valley Forge Park, another tourist attraction and severely and criminally underrated and under-visited by tourists to the region.

[skyhigh07]

Looks like the Barbour store on Newbury in Boston closed down permanently about a year ago. At least with the Walnut closing it sounds like it might be due to company wide issues.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Fair point. Suburban Square is growing but still fairly small. Personally don't love SS, but don't hate it either. It's a fine little outdoor mall, directly on the main line in a dense "streetcar" suburb not too far out. Ardmore is lovely. I guess that's a different discussion though.

I did some registry shopping with my partner the other weekend and we ended up at Suburban Square for the first time. My fiancee is from a very suburban part of South Jersey (I like to tell her that it's almost exurban and I define that based on ow many streets in her neighborhood have sidewalks). She is fine driving through suburban Jersey still, but we've been in Philly for years. That said, I've rarely ever seen her so enraged when we pulled into Suburban Square - she'd never heard of the concept or location before. The parking was terrible and the roads in the complex were narrow and crowded. Nothing was actually walkable (and it was a cold windy day). I tried to explain what they were trying to do and she said they were failing. She ranted about how it was the worst parts of suburban and urban shopping all in one. She's not one to have strong opinions most of the time, so I was surprised how livid the place made her. She doesn't usually care about urban planning, so it made me a little happy to see she had opinions on the layout at all! I had expectations going in, so I was prepared for what we were getting into, but yeah, I agreed with her - dressing up a strip mall to look like a city is lipstick on a pig. It's so obvious that someone who doesn't typically have a dog in the fight was fairly triggered by it. KOP is attempting something similar and it's equally transparent. Some people like that, I guess, so I'm glad they like it and that it's far away from me (though it would be nicer if it was further away). Maybe those towns will develop a more organic feel of urbanism in the future (if that's what they want to become), but I'm not holding my breath.

[AnEmperorPenguin]

Originally Posted by iamrobk

Re: KOP, I have a lot of thoughts on the subject, but just some bullet points:
[LIST][*]The KOP rail extension is a waste of time and money, though as explained earlier I can see why SEPTA tried to go ahead with it. But it really just seems pointless and they need to stop moving forward on it and cut their losses.

This has to be someone high up at SEPTAs pet project right? They've known they couldn't build a good rail project for a few years now I think; can't get a good route, can't get good station locations, projected ridership is really bad, etc.

Originally Posted by summersm343

1. We live in a country that favors suburban living and car culture above all else. Unfortunately, we don't live in Europe which tends to favor cities, transit and walkability.

That's more about old design choices and zoning laws then peoples preferences, not that SEPTA can do anything about that unilaterally but they also don't have to waste money trying to build expensive transit out into sprawl where it won't really work

[summersm343]

^^Again, with that said, I think there are far more pressing and needed transit options in the city and around the region that take precedence over this. In no particular order:

1. Amtrak needs to get a line up and running between Philadelphia and Reading with stations in Norristown, KOP/Valley Forge, Phoenixville, Royersford/Spring City, Pottstown and Reading. SEPTA needs to piggyback off of this and run a line that will stop at Port Kennedy station to service KOP and Valley Forge Park. Another station at Valley Forge station, and finally, a station at the Phoenixville station.

2. SEPTA needs to extend the Media/Elwyn to West Chester.

3. There needs to be a SEPTA line that runs to Newtown where there could be stops at Bryn Athyn and Southampton

4. The New Hope Railroad needs to reestablish service to Warminster. Imagine taking the Regional Rail from Center City to Warminster, then switch over to an old-timey train and taking it into New Hope. Would be pretty magical.

5. Broad Street line needs to be extended down to the Navy Yard. This should be SEPTA's #1 priority. I would even say we really only need one station down in the Navy Yard to minimize costs.

6. There needs to be a regional rail stop at the Zoo.

7. There needs to be a "Cultural Branch" light rail line that runs from Broad Street (connecting up with the Broad Street line) and running past the Art Museum into Fairmount Park and across the Columbia Bridge to West Fairmount Park.

8. There could be a light rail line the runs along Delaware Ave/Columbus Blvd from Richmond Street/Northbank development area, down to the stadiums along Pattison Ave

9. Bus Rapid Transit along Route 1/Roosevelt Blvd from the Neshaminy Mall, down through Northeast Philly and to City Ave/Bala Cynwyd

10. Regional Rail Station at Ridge Ave around 29th Street to service Brewerytown and Strawberry Mansion

11. Regional Rail Station around 9th and Girard Ave

12. NJ Transit Line down through Gloucester City, Woodbury, Pitman and Glassboro

13. NJ Transit line through Merchantville, Maple Shade, Moorestown and Mount Holly

14. In the future, once the Bellwether District gets going, there needs to be a rail line down along 25th Street Viaduct to service Grays Ferry, Point Breeze and the Bellwether District.

Did I hit everything?

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I did some registry shopping with my partner the other weekend and we ended up at Suburban Square for the first time. My fiancee is from a very suburban part of South Jersey (I like to tell her that it's almost exurban and I define that based on ow many streets in her neighborhood have sidewalks). She is fine driving through suburban Jersey still, but we've been in Philly for years. That said, I've rarely ever seen her so enraged when we pulled into Suburban Square - she'd never heard of the concept or location before. The parking was terrible and the roads in the complex were narrow and crowded. Nothing was actually walkable (and it was a cold windy day). I tried to explain what they were trying to do and she said they were failing. She ranted about how it was the worst parts of suburban and urban shopping all in one. She's not one to have strong opinions most of the time, so I was surprised how livid the place made her. She doesn't usually care about urban planning, so it made me a little happy to see she had opinions on the layout at all! I had expectations going in, so I was prepared for what we were getting into, but yeah, I agreed with her - dressing up a strip mall to look like a city is lipstick on a pig. It's so obvious that someone who doesn't typically have a dog in the fight was fairly triggered by it. KOP is attempting something similar and it's equally transparent. Some people like that, I guess, so I'm glad they like it and that it's far away from me (though it would be nicer if it was further away). Maybe those towns will develop a more organic feel of urbanism in the future (if that's what they want to become), but I'm not holding my breath.

That's strange. I actually like Suburban Square, think it's well laid out, very easy to maneuver and very walkable. What exactly made her so angry about it?? Ardmore is probably one of the most walkable and urban towns in the region and great example of the perfect type of suburban, walkable town that we should all be rooting for. I would say easily the top walkable suburban towns in the region are West Chester, Doylestown, Media, Ardmore, Phoenixville, Collingswood, Haddonfield and Newark.