Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Does not explain the derailment.

Does not explain the derailment.

Why is it that the focus is not on maintenance, and more on the type of vehicle it is?

If only they had more people in maintenance planning and in bolt tightening.

But where to find more people and the funds to pay for the extra staff in this tight job markets? If they went driverless they would have people who could re-trained and the money to cover their wages.

[biguc]

Good thing the union made sure those drivers could keep doing the most boring job imaginable.

Wait... they didn't have train drivers before. Which jobs were they protecting?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

If only they had more people in maintenance planning and in bolt tightening.

But where to find more people and the funds to pay for the extra staff in this tight job markets? If they went driverless they would have people who could re-trained and the money to cover their wages.

Drivers do not have the skills or experience to switch to fixing new equipment. That would be like thinking there is a doctor shortage, soo just take all the people who were working retail and have them become doctors.

Originally Posted by biguc

Good thing the union made sure those drivers could keep doing the most boring job imaginable.

Wait... they didn't have train drivers before. Which jobs were they protecting?

Driver jobs. Removing all those buses from the routes as they are replaced by a train will case a surplus of drivers.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by casper

You keep missing the most significant issue with the Ottawa system. The lack of automation. Who in their right mind would build a new modern grade separated system in this day and age and not have it fully automated.

Doing automation allows far more flexibility that having drivers.

Vancouver Skytrain provides over 25 years of proof that such systems can and do work well.

Because it's really not that big of a deal to have a "driver" on board.

[casper]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Because it's really not that big of a deal to have a "driver" on board.

A glimpse of the futuristic technology that someday Ottawa could adopt....

• Video Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9kGEdcYTPs

If Ottawa wanted to go cutting edge, it could have this version.
• Video Link

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by casper

A glimpse of the futuristic technology that someday Ottawa could adopt....

Maybe in 50-100 years. They really dropped the ball on this one. They are stuck with running trams like a metro.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

A glimpse of the futuristic technology that someday Ottawa could adopt....

• Video Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9kGEdcYTPs

If Ottawa wanted to go cutting edge, it could have this version.
• Video Link

LIMs would require the line to be shutdown and new rolling stock that is completely different than what is out there. Overhead centenary is fine. It is a proven technology.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by casper

A glimpse of the futuristic technology that someday Ottawa could adopt....

• Video Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9kGEdcYTPs

If Ottawa wanted to go cutting edge, it could have this version.
• Video Link

This pride filled moment has being posted countless times. What is the actual advantage of not having a "driver" on board? Just cost savings from the salary because almost every automated system still has a human employee on board. Human error happens with a driver driving. How often is there a major incident? Driverless has a slightly safer record and is slightly more efficient. Let's not over blow things.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

This pride filled moment has being posted countless times. What is the actual advantage of not having a "driver" on board? Just cost savings from the salary?

If we're talking about a line that's fully automated and just happens to still have a driver, then yes, the cost is the main issue as the driver is one of, if not the, biggest expense in operating most transit vehicles. For a driver that makes say, $30-40/hr + benefits, even a large diesel bus isn't likely going to burn more than that in a single hour. So you're basically giving up a cost savings similar to the difference between an electrified and a non-electrified line.

But there's also the operational flexibility that comes with being able to deploy trains to/from anywhere at any time to meet unexpected demand without having to worry about operator scheduling and availability.

[WhipperSnapper]

Not scheduling staff is what I meant by efficiency. In 2021, having the insurance of someone on board capable of driving is worth more than it was when Skytrain was first built with the failed ICTS tech; certainly worth the cost of the salary.

[casper]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

This pride filled moment has being posted countless times. What is the actual advantage of not having a "driver" on board? Just cost savings from the salary because almost every automated system still has a human employee on board. Human error happens with a driver driving. How often is there a major incident? Driverless has a slightly safer record and is slightly more efficient. Let's not over blow things.

Service recovery is simpler. If there is a problem and additional trains need to be deployed to address unexpected demand. The number of trains in service at any point in time is not directly tied to the number of employees on duty and there is no need to ensure a driver is available before adding an extra train to the system.

There is no requirement that an employee to be on each train. They frequently wonder around the system engaging with passengers. Sometimes on trains but usually on station platforms. They are able to unlock the control cabinet at the front of the train and manually drive the train if needed. However it is extremely rare that that is the case. In most cases they are going to be doing customer service functions, helping lost passengers, rendering first aid, checking for fare evasion, etc.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

LIMs would require the line to be shutdown and new rolling stock that is completely different than what is out there. Overhead centenary is fine. It is a proven technology.

Not suggesting LIMs be used in Ottawa. Ottawa had their chance to adopt a proven superior drive technology and they decided to go with what they have. It is to late to switch to LIMs or high-floor. What they can still do is retrofit to driverless.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Not scheduling staff is what I meant by efficiency. In 2021, having the insurance of someone on board capable of driving is worth more than it was when Skytrain was first built with the failed ICTS tech; certainly worth the cost of the salary.

It is weird. The ICTS tech was developed in Ontario and has been sold around the world. The only place where it is being taken out of service is Ontario. That said, Toronto never understood how to take advantage of its automation. They put drivers in each train. The other installations of this Canadian developed technology have not done that.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by casper

It is weird. The ICTS tech was developed in Ontario and has been sold around the world. The only place where it is being taken out of service is Ontario. That said, Toronto never understood how to take advantage of its automation. They put drivers in each train. The other installations of this Canadian developed technology have not done that.

Probably because the Scarborough RT was a bad use case for driverless technology. It was a short stub line at the end of the network with only two stations that saw a large number of passengers: Kennedy and Scarborough Centre.

All of the advantages of driverless tech were never going to be used: short headways, ability to interline easily with other lines, ability to do quick short turns and reversals of direction, etc.

Most Torontonians have a negative association with the SRT because they associate it with a forced transfer that was very poorly made. To continue east from Kennedy into Scarborough, you have to exit the subway and then head up 3 flights of stairs before waiting for the SRT.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

Not suggesting LIMs be used in Ottawa. Ottawa had their chance to adopt a proven superior drive technology and they decided to go with what they have. It is to late to switch to LIMs or high-floor. What they can still do is retrofit to driverless.

It is the only driverless system in Canada outside of the YYZ airport Link train. How will it fix the maintenance issues?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Probably because the Scarborough RT was a bad use case for driverless technology. It was a short stub line at the end of the network with only two stations that saw a large number of passengers: Kennedy and Scarborough Centre.

All of the advantages of driverless tech were never going to be used: short headways, ability to interline easily with other lines, ability to do quick short turns and reversals of direction, etc.

Most Torontonians have a negative association with the SRT because they associate it with a forced transfer that was very poorly made. To continue east from Kennedy into Scarborough, you have to exit the subway and then head up 3 flights of stairs before waiting for the SRT.

Had the SRT been extended to Union it might have proven to be a better system in Toronto. Instead they are tearing it out.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why is it that people will blame everything but shoddy workmanship and shoddy maintenance? The more and more I hear of the issues, the less the vehicle type and more the amount and type of maintenance being done seems to be the issues. Other low floor vehicles run just as fast without much issue. Other low floor vehicles run higher passenger load without much issue.

I literally pointed to poor maintenance and shoddy workmanship as the main issues on the Confederation Line.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The main issue with Ottawa's Confederation Line was the rush to complete it, resulting in poor workmanship on the Line and the trains, and bad maintenance practices.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why is it that the focus is not on maintenance, and more on the type of vehicle it is?

jamincan also pointed to exactly that.

Originally Posted by jamincan

In the present line configuration, low-floor is an issue as it dictates fewer doors and that has been problematic at the high-volume transfer stations, particularly Tunney's Pasture. Phase 2 will address this for the most part, but it will remain a limitation of the rolling stock.

Mostly, though, the issues seem to be due to poor management with RTG. The recent derailment was entirely due to shoddy maintenance practices and poor record keeping. The failure wouldn't have happened in a properly managed organization. Organizational issues aren't nearly as fun to debate online though.

We very much acknowledge that workmanship and maintenance are the main issues, but the low-floor model chosen is a contributing factor. It is entirely possible to run our low-floor light metro reliably by first fixing the workmanship issues and instilling proper maintenance practices however, high-floor would have been a better choice for several factors. That said, the ship has sailed, and it's not the end of the world. What we have (at least with Stage 2) is far superior to the old Transitway.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

LIMs would require the line to be shutdown and new rolling stock that is completely different than what is out there. Overhead centenary is fine. It is a proven technology.

Aren't LIMs also notoriously terrible in snowy conditions?

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It is the only driverless system in Canada outside of the YYZ airport Link train. How will it fix the maintenance issues?

I think the YYZ airport Link and Skytrain it is the only driverless system in Canada. Skytrain is actually two system the Expo/Millenium Line that is based on LIM. The Canada line is a more conventional subway line but also driverless.

It fixes the maintenance issue by reducing the labour cost of operating the trains that provides money that can then be used to hire more people on maintenance front.

[Coldrsx]

Edmonton - WLRT update - West Edmonton Mall elevated station leading the way.

https://transforming.edmonton.ca/building-a-foundation-for-valley-line-wests-elevated-stations/

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Edmonton - WLRT update - West Edmonton Mall elevated station leading the way.

https://transforming.edmonton.ca/building-a-foundation-for-valley-line-wests-elevated-stations/

Edmonton knows how to do elevated stations right!

[J.OT13]

A few Snapshot Updates from O-Train Fans.

East

Montreal Station, a local transfer station.




https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-montreal-station-december-13-2021

Place d'Orleans Station, the main bus transfer station for Orleans.








https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-place-d-orleans-station-december-15-2021

Jeanne d'Arc Station, a local line station.


https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-jeanne-d-arc-station-december-7-2021

South

Some Snapshot updates from O-Train Fans.

Rail installation around Greenboro Station, a fare-paid transfer station between the Trillium Line 2 and the South-East Transitway.




https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-1-1

Walkley Station, an infill station between Mooney's Bay and Greenboro.




https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-walkley-station-december-9-2021

Uplands Station, part of the Line 4 airport link, serving the city's main tradeshow hall.


https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-uplands-station-december-7-2021

Dow's Lake Station, serving massive TOD in the inner core of Ottawa, existing, u/c and proposed, and the future new Civic Hospital.


https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-dow-s-lake-station-december-13-2021

Corso Italia Station, a new infill within Ottawa's inner core, which will also see significant TOD in the coming years.




https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-corso-italia-station-december-13-2021

[Base]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Edmonton knows how to do elevated stations right!

I agree! The problem is they just don't do nearly enough of them.