The Great Canadian Transit Thread - Page 815

Nouvellecosse · #**16281** Posted **Nov 30, 2021, 2:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Meanwhile, Vancouver's been running 100% electric, 100% hydro-power trolley buses since the 50s and yet is seemingly overlooked as having electric buses. It currently has 268 40' and 60' articulated trolley buses in operation and they're doing a yeoman's service for the system by operating on some of its most heavily trafficked routes serving the City of Vancouver, particularly to the downtown core.

Translink is also investing in BEV bus infrastructure, with a pilot route in operation and plans for a new BEV bus operations and maintenance centre to support the first major round of BEV bus procurement.

I think Toronto and Vancouver deserve a lot of credit for retaining legacy green infrastructure like the streetcars and trolley buses! I don't think it's so much that they're overlooked but rather that the new BEV investments make the news since they're new and the news mainly covers new things. Things that represent significant changes.

Truenorth00 · #**16282** Posted **Nov 30, 2021, 2:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Aren't the feds providing an infrastructure fund specifically for new electric buses and the infrastructure needed to support them? I imagine most transit services will transition over in the next decade or so.

The feds are providing both grants and low cost financing to transit agencies who went to electrify their fleet. Quebec has just been much more enthusiastic and willing to commit investments beyond just basic cost sharing. They are even talking about possibly retiring diesel buses early in Quebec.

rbt · #**16283** Posted **Nov 30, 2021, 4:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I believe Toronto is also already enacting plans to massively enlarge the electric bus fleet.

Toronto will have 360 Electric buses by end of 2025 (300 New Flyer deliveries starting 2023, plus the existing 60). It is expecting all future purchases will also be Electric only.

Quote:

Aren't the feds providing an infrastructure fund specifically for new electric buses and the infrastructure needed to support them? I imagine most transit services will transition over in the next decade or so.

They are, and one of the larger expenses is installing charging infrastructure which should only need to be done once. Without that expense, electric buses are cheaper than diesel (capital + operating) provided they don't have an unusually short lifespan like early Hybrids.

Reecemartin · #**16284** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 2:10 AM**

I moved heaven and earth to do this one same day! Canada's National Rail Carrier VIA has unveiled its new fleet, and the trains are among the nicest I’ve ever seen, come for a tour with me in this latest video!

https://youtu.be/qgFQvj9dCXY

WhipperSnapper · #**16285** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 4:43 AM**

Just about anyone is focusing on electric buses to replace their end of service fleet. This is a commitment from the Quebec government. They don't have a supplier picked yet. It's not an order.

Al Ski · #**16286** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 8:08 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I moved heaven and earth to do this one same day! Canada's National Rail Carrier VIA has unveiled its new fleet, and the trains are among the nicest I’ve ever seen, come for a tour with me in this latest video!

https://youtu.be/qgFQvj9dCXY

Great job Reece, you do stellar work, I watch all your vids (subscribed and liked)!

As nice as they are I can't get overly excited about diesel in 2021.

esquire · #**16287** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 3:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I moved heaven and earth to do this one same day! Canada's National Rail Carrier VIA has unveiled its new fleet, and the trains are among the nicest I’ve ever seen, come for a tour with me in this latest video!

https://youtu.be/qgFQvj9dCXY

That was an exceptionally good video, very informative yet concise. Thanks.

JHikka · #**16288** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 3:20 PM**

Looks like a big upgrade over the current VIA cars. Thanks for the video!

LeftCoaster · #**16289** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 8:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbt

Toronto will have 360 Electric buses by end of 2025 (300 New Flyer deliveries starting 2023, plus the existing 60). It is expecting all future purchases will also be Electric only.

Vancouver has a fleet of 262 electric busses already so you're all just playing catch-up!

MonkeyRonin · #**16290** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 9:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Ski

Great job Reece, you do stellar work, I watch all your vids (subscribed and liked)!

As nice as they are I can't get overly excited about diesel in 2021.

The most disappointing part is that they're capable of travel at speeds of up to 200 kph, but due to track conditions and grade separations won't actually be going anywhere near that fast. Electrification is moot when we can't even make full use of our diesel engines as is.

Apparently these trains are capable of using electric power as well though, if and when that should ever happen.

Nouvellecosse · #**16291** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 9:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

The most disappointing part is that they can travel at speeds of up to 200 kph, but due to track conditions and grade separations won't actually be going anywhere near that fast. Electrification is moot when we can't even make full use of our diesel engines.

Apparently these trains are capable of using electric power as well though, if and when that should ever happen.

Well most fossil automobiles on the road can travel faster than the speed limit of most highways too but that doesn't mean switching to electric cars is moot. And considering the plans surrounding HFR have included discussions of track improvements and electrification, I don't think there's anything to be disappointed about. Yet. If it gets delayed or canceled on the other hand...

ssiguy · #**16292** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 9:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think Toronto and Vancouver deserve a lot of credit for retaining legacy green infrastructure like the streetcars and trolley buses! I don't think it's so much that they're overlooked but rather that the new BEV investments make the news since they're new and the news mainly covers new things. Things that represent significant changes.

While I too think it is great that Vancouver and Toronto retain much of it's green infrastructure, I don't think it had anything to do with being green. The retention of these systems was strictly due to pragmatism.

In Vancouver's case, the hills were the issue. The sharp inclines in the West End and Little Mountain made trolleys far superior as diesel buses would have had a bitch of a time climbing them and being very slow to boot. This is why all the North/South routes are trolley while the the much less hilly East/West routes aren't with the only exception being Broadway.

In Toronto's case, the streetcar system was very extensive and tearing up tracks is very expensive and disruptive and streetcars offered the high capacity needed on these already very busy downtown routes.

As battery/hydrogen buses & streetcars become less expensive, more capable, have faster recharging times, more efficient, and have far more suppliers and infrastructure, I think you will see the phase-out of all overhead supply systems for local transit. It will not happen all at once but will be gradually done as the fleets need renewing. Overhead wires are expensive to maintain, are unsightly, and in the case of trolleys often become disconnected from the buses especially when turning corners.

In short the reason for catenary overhead supply lines is losing it "raison d'etre" and transit agencies will increasing view them as an expensive technology but without the flexibility of battery/hydrogen ones. This I think will happen faster in terms of Vancouver's trolleys because they are increasingly finding it more difficult to get suppliers which adds to their relative cost.

Truenorth00 · #**16293** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 9:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

The most disappointing part is that they're capable of travel at speeds of up to 200 kph, but due to track conditions and grade separations won't actually be going anywhere near that fast.

Top speed is all but irrelevant when their operating speeds are determined by separation from freight trains on tracks owned by the freight companies. And the freight cos don't need track infrastructure capable of 200 kph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Electrification is moot when we can't even make full use of our diesel engines as is.

What? Is that why there's so many diesel metro and LRT systems around? Electrification is primarily about reducing operating costs. Though, it has the added benefit that electric trains can accelerate quicker and support higher top speeds.

swimmer_spe · #**16294** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 9:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

The most disappointing part is that they're capable of travel at speeds of up to 200 kph, but due to track conditions and grade separations won't actually be going anywhere near that fast. Electrification is moot when we can't even make full use of our diesel engines as is.

Apparently these trains are capable of using electric power as well though, if and when that should ever happen.

If only there was some sort of government regulatory body that could somehow, make a regulation about addressing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Well most fossil automobiles on the road can travel faster than the speed limit of most highways too but that doesn't mean switching to electric cars is moot. And considering the plans surrounding HFR have included discussions of track improvements and electrification, I don't think there's anything to be disappointed about. Yet. If it gets delayed or canceled on the other hand...

If I understand it, even the real HSR trains don't maintain their top speed. Usually, that speed is only on the demonstration of the line.

MonkeyRonin · #**16295** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 9:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Well most fossil automobiles on the road can travel faster than the speed limit of most highways too but that doesn't mean switching to electric cars is moot. And considering the plans surrounding HFR have included discussions of track improvements and electrification, I don't think there's anything to be disappointed about. Yet. If it gets delayed or canceled on the other hand...

I just mean that I'd much rather be riding in a diesel-powered train travelling at 200 kph than at 120 kph in an electric one on shoddy tracks.

The big advantage of electric powered trains are that they can go faster than diesel (both in acceleration and at top speed), so it'd be a bit of a waste if we first electrified a system where tracks are still in disrepair or where sections aren't grade-separated or given priority in a right-of-way.

swimmer_spe · #**16296** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 9:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What? Is that why there's so many diesel metro and LRT systems around? Electrification is primarily about reducing operating costs. Though, it has the added benefit that electric trains can accelerate quicker and support higher top speeds.

Which is why Via will only have electric trains on their own infrastructure. CN/CP won't do it as it will affect their loading gauge.

Truenorth00 · #**16297** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 10:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I just mean that I'd much rather be riding in a diesel-powered train travelling at 200 kph than at 120 kph in an electric one on shoddy tracks.

We all would....

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

The big advantage of electric powered trains are that they can go faster than diesel (both in acceleration and at top speed), so it'd be a bit of a waste if we first electrified a system where tracks are still in disrepair or where sections aren't grade-separated or given priority in a right-of-way.

The freight cos will never allow overhead catenary in their corridors. And they have no interest in building track to higher standards than is necessary for their own ops. This is exactly why HFR can't come soon enough.

casper · #**16298** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 10:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We all would....

The freight cos will never allow overhead catenary in their corridors. And they have no interest in building track to higher standards than is necessary for their own ops. This is exactly why HFR can't come soon enough.

Perhaps time to begin expropriation of key lines from the freight railways.

DirectionNorth · #**16299** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 10:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper

Perhaps time to begin expropriation of key lines from the freight railways.

I pose the same question here as to those who proposed this on UT.

How much will that cost?

What will need to be done to ensure freight shipments (trucks are more carbon intensive than cars) will continue to be shipped in an efficient manner?

Finally, what will this say about the business climate of Canada ("we'll just expropriate because we feel like it")?

Truenorth00 · #**16300** Posted **Dec 1, 2021, 10:57 PM**

Yep. This expropriation fantasy comes up all the time. Given that CN and CP are some of the largest freight railroads on the planet and substantially contributed to reducing emissions by keeping heavy freight off the roads, why would governments go out of their way to disrupt them?

All to avoid governments building passenger rail infrastructure that we should have been building all along?