The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

I am so so thankful the GO stations in Hamilton were built where they are. One's in an old station built 90 years ago, and the other was built beside an old station built 90 years ago. They have all the infrastructure all they need to do is zone for higher buildings to match it.

That new one that'll be built in Stoney Creek is in the thick of The Sprawl, but at least it's not where it can get any worse.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

• Video Link

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO.

Is GO the reason everyone is moving from the GTA to London?
People are moving to where they can afford it and accept the drive. Then GO is extended there. Then more people move. Using London as an example, it has sprawled out in the last 10 years. My cousin bought a house in London, and the only reason she won the bid isn't due to being the highest, but because the old owners would rather sell it to someone from London than from someone from the GTA. In the few years she has owned there, most of the homes that have sold around her have been from the GTA.

So, no, GO is not making sprawl worse. GO is making the sprawl not contribute more to congestion and GHG of driving 200km to downtown Toronto.

If anything, I'd say the Greenbelts of Toronto and Ottawa have contributed more to sprawl. Transit is only now catching up to it.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

But isn't the province investing the same billion now as is was initially? I can't get over the fact that we were just months away from opening the bids, seeing the true cost at the time, which would have been far cheaper than what it will be with significantly increased labour and material costs.

The LRT would have cost the same regardless, the $1 billion cost was really the 2010 cost for it unescalated. No different than other LRT projects in the GTA with far higher contract prices than the original “funding budget”.

So what the province did is they went from having to pay for all of it no matter what, to getting a good cool $2 billion plus from the Feds for it. So the whole show managed to write $2 billion in debt off the provincial books basically.

I don’t think that was their initial intention, instead planning to cut it because Ford hates LRTs from his Toronto council days as a cheap way to save money (“we’ll still give a billion, but it’s a hard billion now, not a generous definition of it like before”) and build some bus lanes instead. Then of course their little commission came back and said the LRT should get built anyway, and the Feds said they’d fund the gap, and the transport minister had to be transported away from the cancellation announcement in a police escort from the blowback.. and the province realized they screwed up.

Hamilton’s incompetence is rewarding itself here in a way, by council being so unsure on the whole thing for years it’s taken forever to be built but as a result they are getting a free transit line basically while Ottawa and Kitchener had to pay and own their lines themselves.

[Nouvellecosse]

I finally found the time to watch the video, and I agree with most of the content. GO, so far, has not challenged the nature of traditional suburban form or function beyond playing the core role of peak period commuter service. The issue I have with the video is mainly in terms of tone. The presenter comes across as judgemental, implying a sort of resentment toward suburban residents for getting something subsidized if if they've been naughty and are undeserving. But subsidies are simply a way of encourage beneficial behaviour, and it's beneficial for people to take a train to/from town for peak period commuting rather than using a car which would create more noise, pollution, and require even greater subsidies in terms of highway expansion and maintenance. It's an issue of utility rather than morality.

Most of the issues he raises are problems with suburban form itself rather than anything specific to GO which is essentially a harm reduction program rather than one intended to solve the problem of suburban sprawl. Basically it's the safe injection sites for suburban sprawl. I disagree that the parking near GO stations is a "waste" because housing cars there at suburban stations is a net benefit to society compared to housing them in garages downtown, and if one were to charge full market rate for the parking and train fares, it would fail to attract much ridership. The only way around that would be to not create the conditions that make it cheaper and/or easier to drive, but that isn't something that GO itself controls. Plus, that's not unlike most other forms of public transit which is also generally subsidized in NA, so all transit users are getting a subsidy. If we agree that it's better for people to take public transit than to drive cars, that fact remains true regardless of where the people live.

Saying that it's wrong for people to get the subsidy because of where they live is making a moral judgement on the people rather than simply looking at the efficacy of the policy. I mean sure, people choosing to live where they need to make long commutes isn't as efficient as choosing locations with shorter commutes, but shifting a long commute from a car to the rails has a higher net benefit than doing the same for a short commutes.

Yes, there should have been significant investment in GO decades ago to transform it from 9-5 commuter service into a frequent, all-day transit system. But when it was started it was done by simply buying rolling stock and creating some basic stations for use on existing tracks which is far cheaper than basically duplicating all the trackage and electrifying it, meaning that governments got a huge value for the low cost since peak period is when the bulk of longer distance commute demand occurred. At one point the presenter said it was crazy that so much investment was made to build a whole network just to run a few trains a day, but that's a complete mis-characterisation, since GO didn't build most of the network. They've bought, upgrades, and built additional track over the years, but by and large they are using a network that already existed under the ownership of other entities. And since it was owned by freight companies, they could negotiate use for part of the day, but to run trains all day would have required enormous investment - just to provide service when the demand was lowest, and when highways could often perform the functional equally well. That is not crazy. It's a pragmatic choice that maximizes return on investment.

The big takeaway is that offering subsidies to people, regardless of where they're living, in return for desirable behaviour does not equate to subsidizing sprawl, unless the subsidies are inducing people to choose to live in sprawl. And the video in no way makes the case for the latter.

Also, why is the video unlisted? Did the creator post it as early access content on Patreon or something? If so, we probably shouldn't be sharing the link publicly yet.

[Reecemartin]

For the past 15 years or so, transit projects have come and gone, and there was even a period of transit "dark ages" where only 1 or 2 transit projects were in progress. How has that changed, and have we finally reached the transit renaissance?

https://youtu.be/UhYpH6iEKKQ

[hipster duck]

^I remember in 2004, the big "transit news" in the GTA was that York Region Transit was unveiling the Viva system. At that time, Viva was just a rebranded limited stop service on 15 minute headways using European-built VanHool buses and serving slightly fancy shelters that featured - and this was considered really groundbreaking - fare machines and a display showing when the next bus was due to arrive. It still traveled on the regular road and got stuck in traffic.


The Toronto Star devoted a two-page spread to the opening of Viva services in its Saturday paper. Nowadays, the opening of a Viva dedicated BRT in its own ROW with covered stations would barely rate a mention.

[swimmer_spe]

https://www.blogto.com/travel/2021/10/first-go-train-london-toronto-running-today/

https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/g...ing/FullSchedules/FS16102021/Table31.pdf

Today was the first day of GO train service to London ON. The platforms at London. St Marys and Stratford are too short for all cars to open. The platforms are also too low to be accessible, but they have a lift for those that need it.

[FrAnKs]

Good news! Yesterday's municipal election in Québec City has confirmed a strong support for the Tramway project. On 21 districts, 17 of them went to councillors that are supporting the project. Which is 80% of the city's districts.

[biguc]

Who's providing QC's trams, the Combine?


https://half-life.fandom.com/wiki/Razor_Train

[J.OT13]

Quite happy with the results of municipal elections in Quebec. All of them pro transit, if not the biggest boosters. Solid second choices in Gatineau and Quebec City, and of course Plante a planté Coderre.

[Coldrsx]

• Video Link

[Reecemartin]

Visiting the deepest station in Canada on the REM was an incredible experience - Come along for the ride!

https://youtu.be/VnXj0_H71ig

[Truenorth00]

Not sure if covered, but Quebec is undertaking an incredible effort to electrify 55% of the province's transit fleet by 2030. The province is chipping in $3.65B of $5B combined spending (including federal and transit agency funds). With this push, Quebec week have half the electric bus orders in the country.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-n...t-of-the-5b-bill-for-2148-electric-buses

On top of this. Quebec has already committed $250M, with the goal of electrifying 65% of the school bus fleet by 2030.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7784257/quebec-electric-school-buses-2030/

[DirectionNorth]

OK, the counterpart to my "Divided Highways in Canada" map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/2/edit?m....75182691489391%2C-91.30993965000002&z=5
Just need to do New York now.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by DirectionNorth

OK, the counterpart to my "Divided Highways in Canada" map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/2/edit?m....75182691489391%2C-91.30993965000002&z=5
Just need to do New York now.

You need to give us access.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not sure if covered, but Quebec is undertaking an incredible effort to electrify 55% of the province's transit fleet by 2030. The province is chipping in $3.65B of $5B combined spending (including federal and transit agency funds). With this push, Quebec week have half the electric bus orders in the country.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-n...t-of-the-5b-bill-for-2148-electric-buses

On top of this. Quebec has already committed $250M, with the goal of electrifying 65% of the school bus fleet by 2030.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7784257/quebec-electric-school-buses-2030/

It's half the electric bus orders in North America.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

It's half the electric bus orders in North America.

Yep. My mistake.

I wonder if that impressive stat will hold, as the recently passed federal infrastructure plan in the US, drives some electrification down there. But good on Quebec to get so far ahead.

Aside from slightly better ride quality and environmental benefits, the real value of electric buses to transit agencies, is the reduced cost of operation and more predictable costs. This should reduce the threat of fluctuating fuel costs forcing cuts. And should reduce the cost of expanding transit in due course.

[Nouvellecosse]

I heard not too long ago that Toronto currently has the electric bus fleet in NA. I wonder if Montreal will over take it.

[SFUVancouver]

Meanwhile, Vancouver's been running 100% electric, 100% hydro-power trolley buses since the 50s and yet is seemingly overlooked as having electric buses. It currently has 268 40' and 60' articulated trolley buses in operation and they're doing a yeoman's service for the system by operating on some of its most heavily trafficked routes serving the City of Vancouver, particularly to the downtown core.

Translink is also investing in BEV bus infrastructure, with a pilot route in operation and plans for a new BEV bus operations and maintenance centre to support the first major round of BEV bus procurement.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I heard not too long ago that Toronto currently has the electric bus fleet in NA. I wonder if Montreal will over take it.

I believe Toronto is also already enacting plans to massively enlarge the electric bus fleet.

Aren't the feds providing an infrastructure fund specifically for new electric buses and the infrastructure needed to support them? I imagine most transit services will transition over in the next decade or so.