The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[canucklehead2]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

There's been a plan for years now. Originally this was supposed to be up and running for the 2015 Pan Am games!

The Ford government killed this during the bidding process. So previous bidders should just be able to dust off their paperwork to update and re-submit.

The money is much more plentiful now, which scares me a bit (we still haven't seen details about how that $3.4 billion was estimated; originally this was an up-to-$1-billion capital cost project). But things should move relatively smoothly.

The biggest worry is a change in city leadership that derails everything. A former mayor who became a federal Liberal backbencher has always been dead set against this, and he's not running federally Sep 20 and may consider another shot at the mayor's chair in fall 2022. But if this can get signed and sealed with delivery beginning before that, the worry will be naught.

FFS that's both aggravating and heartbreaking that cities like Hamilton and projects like the LRT are held up by ignorant backwater leaders politiking while traffic snarls and the air clogs with PM 2.5. And you wonder why the future ain't like it used to be as it were...

I did recently watch Reece Martin's newest YouTube video on standardization of railway technology in China and how that could help speed up projects here. On a related note, I wish we had a national transit agency that could help coordinate projects better to ensure less waste and more rapid system rollouts... And to prevent these project timelines from sliding further into the future when they are needed now! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AayMJQwqgAY

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

FFS that's both aggravating and heartbreaking that cities like Hamilton and projects like the LRT are held up by ignorant backwater leaders politiking while traffic snarls and the air clogs with PM 2.5. And you wonder why the future ain't like it used to be as it were...

City council ratified the decision to sign the MOU today. There will no doubt continue to be hand-wringing and whining, but this was the big hurdle and now things can begin in earnest. It would take a heck of a lot to turn back.


Key LRT decision ratified by Hamilton city council

By Ken Mann, 900 CHML
Posted September 15, 2021

Light rail transit (LRT) supporters can look forward to shovels in the ground as soon as the middle of next year now that Hamilton city council has ratified a key milestone.

In a repeat of a Sept. 8 decision by the general issues committee, council voted 11-3 on Wednesday to sign a memorandum of understanding (MOU) with Metrolinx and the provincial government.

...
https://globalnews.ca/news/8193393/lrt-hamilton-city-council-mou-vote/

[Beedok]

When GO to London is properly up and running, I wonder if there will be any further points out there than London ON and Buckingham QC where you can use the same local transit fare card to pay.

[SteelTown]

It's a done deal, Hamilton's B-Line LRT Memorandum of Understanding have been signed, sealed and delivered. Construction is suppose to start next year.



Ontario Transportation Minister Mulroney, Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster, Hamilton Mayor Eisenberger and City Manager Janette Smith signed the #HamOntLRT Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) to move forward with the project!
https://twitter.com/HamiltonLRT/status/1440727213507170306

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

It's a done deal, Hamilton's B-Line LRT Memorandum of Understanding have been signed, sealed and delivered. Construction is suppose to start next year.
Ontario Transportation Minister Mulroney, Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster, Hamilton Mayor Eisenberger and City Manager Janette Smith signed the #HamOntLRT Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) to move forward with the project!
https://twitter.com/HamiltonLRT/status/1440727213507170306

The very Caroline Mulroney that announced its cancellation and had to be escorted away a while back
I know she hasn’t changed position, but I just find it ironic.

[Coldrsx]

Jeffrey Hansen Carlson on the Prairie Sky Gondola project that will connect Whyte Avenue-Rossdale-Downtown in Edmonton.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/4-...sky-gondola/id1574150925?i=1000536282847

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

The very Caroline Mulroney that announced its cancellation and had to be escorted away a while back
I know she hasn’t changed position, but I just find it ironic.

Did she even have a position? If so, I'd think it's "clueless" just like her bro.

On this issue, she has just been a Messenger of Ford.

[lrt's friend]

what a crazy flip-flop. What was the whole point of this cancellation/re-approval?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

what a crazy flip-flop. What was the whole point of this cancellation/re-approval?

Erase all credit due to the previous Liberal Government? Blow two or three times more tax-payer money? Delay the project several years for fun?

That's what pisses me off about the Cons. Their whole spiel is fiscal responsibility, but what they always end up doing is cut services, cut taxes and cancel then revive (sometimes) projects at an even higher price. We end up with less for more money.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

what a crazy flip-flop. What was the whole point of this cancellation/re-approval?

Shed 2 billion of construction costs onto the feds basically.

The original funding structure was that it was a 100% provincial project, and that got changed to it being a ~40% provincial project and ~60% federal project.

I also don't think the PCs predicted they would get as much blowback as they did when they cancelled it.

What should be more discussed about the project is how insanely good of a deal it is for the City of Hamilton. Metrolinx is building it and will maintain it for free for the city. The city gets probably a couple hundred million in free infrastructure out of it from road reconstructions, new sewage and water systems, etc., and is not liable for maintenance at all on the line. AND they have no capital contribution. They only have to pay for operating.

It's probably the sweetest municipal transit funding deal ever made in Canada. Compared to the Kitchener LRT which the city owns, maintains, and paid for most of it..

I guess one big difference is that Hamilton owns it's own local expressway network which Kitchener doesn't, so Kitchener does have some favoritism in other ways from the Province..

[Truenorth00]

• Video Link

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Shed 2 billion of construction costs onto the feds basically.

The original funding structure was that it was a 100% provincial project, and that got changed to it being a ~40% provincial project and ~60% federal project.

But isn't the province investing the same billion now as is was initially? I can't get over the fact that we were just months away from opening the bids, seeing the true cost at the time, which would have been far cheaper than what it will be with significantly increased labour and material costs.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO.

Passenger rail has facilitated sprawl from its very genesis. That was the whole point of early subway and streetcar systems.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Passenger rail has facilitated sprawl from its very genesis. That was the whole point of early subway and streetcar systems.

But roads have long superseded this.

The only 100% way to prevent sprawl is to go back to the days of only walking to get around. Of course, this makes large cities impossible to function.

[GreaterMontréal]

The only way to prevent sprawl is to put toll on every highway surrounding metropolitan areas. It suffices to create a limit of the urban area. All citizens who live outside the area and want to travel within the urban area will have to pay a tax, a tax which can be high enough to discourage people from living there. You also don't invest in public transit outside the urban areas. I think the REM network will delimit the urban area of Montreal. The REM won't go to Mirabel (North Shore) or Chambly (South Shore). Laval and Longueuil will be the only winner as suburbs, they are the 2 largest and most connected suburbs after all. Together, their population will reach one million in 2025, with Montréal already at 2 million, the region will have a core of 3 million people with an advanced transit network. That is where the government should put its money, not in the suburbs located outside the rapid transit network, even if there are more than 1.5 million inhabitants outside the urban core.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

• Video Link

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO.

Originally Posted by jamincan

Passenger rail has facilitated sprawl from its very genesis. That was the whole point of early subway and streetcar systems.

I don't think that's actually true in the context of Canada. Our early streetcar routes allowed the city to expand beyond walking distance at lower densities than was common prior to that, but a streetcar suburb does not fit the modern concept of "sprawl". Subways in Canada didn't really even play a role as they were simply built as a response to extreme crowding on some surface streetcar routes. Before fairly recent developments like the Vaughan and Laval extensions, we haven't had a history of subways being pushed to the outer fringes like with the London Underground or even the NYC subway in its heyday. In Toronto, entire suburbs like Mrs. Saga and Brampton grew so large they're top 10 Canadian cities without the help of any subway service and only low frequency, peak-focused GO service until recently.

I haven't watched the video yet, but GO definitely did not cause sprawl either. Sprawl in Canada was driven by road expansion and new financial tools that enabled the middle classes to own SFHs. GO was always a post-hoc reaction to sprawl, taking the edge off the effects of traffic congestion.

While the experience is different in Europe where I agree that commuter rail played an important role with suburb development and ongoing existence London and Paris, in NA commuter rail simply allows some central cities to remain mostly functional and escape the destruction from highway construction and parking facilities seen in other cities in the US. NA cities with commuter rail systems do seem to have denser, healthier downtowns, but the ones without commuter rail do NOT tend to have higher densities and lower rates of sprawl. If anything the opposite is true. Places like Houston, Detroit, Phoenix, and Atlanta are probably the largest cities without commuter rail and among the sprawliest.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO.

I feel like municipalities that fail to plan and designate station-adjacent lands for dense, mixed-use development, as well as for improved sustainable transportation connectivity, are more to blame than GO itself. There's also the issue of poor service frequency on some of the lines, which severely limits sustainable development potential.

But ya, the car-oriented stations definitely serve as a sprawl multiplier.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO.

For me I feel like it's a bit of a yes-and-no answer as to whether GO Transit facilitates sprawl because technically the argument can be extended to every form of transit. The most convenient transit method that doesn't incur sprawl on some level is to walk.

However, the Go-Stations for the most part (IMO) have failed to substantially increase the density around them. That's where I think is a missed opportunity. It is nice that Go-Train/Bus service exists in the GTA because it is a very widespread city but the GTA does rely on it as a bit of a crutch when it should be making some tough choices to invest in certain transit projects (like the Ontario line) that would deter the GTA sprawl from expanding anymore that what it is.

At the end of the day, having GO-train service extend throughout the GTA and the Golden Horseshoe is much better than having more highways. But that's just an opinion.

[Nouvellecosse]

Compared to the description of GO in the video title, a less pithy but much more accurate description would be "The Trains that Subsidize the Protection of the Urban Core against the Worst Effects of Sprawl"

[theman23]

The unionville GO station seems like a missed opportunity. The "downtown markham" real estate development is literally down the street from that station, but the distances are still too large for anyone to comfortably walk over to the station. The massive parking lot doesn't help with accessibility either.