O-Train Line 1/3 [ Stage 2 | East Extension | Blair to Trim] | U/C

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

I haven't been out for walks as often as a few months ago, but those have been great for getting a sense of the progress of stations, especially Jeanne D'Arc and Place D'Orleans given that I am in Northwest Orleans. My future local station (12 minute walk) is Convent Glen and there had been no work directly done on it for a long time (just a lot of infrastructure work on the sides of the highway). December I think will be the month when that work finally gets off the ground and since it is the last station on the Eastern Stage 2 expansion to be worked on and the closest to me, I am very excited to see that progress!

Before we know it, those stations will take shape and we will feel very close to the launch of Stage 2 (even if another year and a half may be left as they continue interior work, preparing the track infrastructure, a hopefully thorough period of testing, etc.)

Can't wait to see tracks being laid and steel structures going up and stations. Impressive progress in the east and west so far, compared to what should have been the far simpler south.

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Can't wait to see tracks being laid and steel structures going up and stations. Impressive progress in the east and west so far, compared to what should have been the far simpler south.

I haven't been following the South closely, are the issues related to construction problems/delays or just the lower ambition of that line?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

I haven't been following the South closely, are the issues related to construction problems/delays or just the lower ambition of that line?

In the Spring, they were speculation a few months behind, but were going to confirm this Fall after a summer of catch-up. Next FEDCO update is in December (quarterly updates have become bi-annual, it seems).

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

In the Spring, they were speculation a few months behind, but were going to confirm this Fall after a summer of catch-up. Next FEDCO update is in December (quarterly updates have become bi-annual, it seems).

Thanks, in the meantime at least we have Stage 2 East to be excited about and all that it may do for development along St Joseph! I feel like the prospects are more exciting in the East for large scale changes than the West since that extension is already going through somewhat more urban residential areas with a longer history of condo and apartment buildings.

[GradualFuture]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

I feel like the prospects are more exciting in the East for large scale changes than the West since that extension is already going through somewhat more urban residential areas with a longer history of condo and apartment buildings.

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but as a 25 year resident of Orleans its difficult to imagine WHERE any large scale changes could occur. There is so much damn low density residential along the LRT east. Here are my thoughts on it.

Montreal Station is a big head scratcher, huge beautiful station but there is nothing on the East side of it and you have to walk ~400m JUST to get to the business park entrance or the strip malls along Montreal road there.

St Joseph, MAYBE Youville the land will become more valuable than 10 car lots. That will take time to realize.

Jeanne d'arc there is the small plaza where Pizza hut used to be that could be redeveloped into mid rise towers if they somehow can fight the community and win (hopefully), and on the north side there is that ancient strip mall with Metro/Ultramar that could be remade.

Place is exciting. If CF doesn't shit the bed they have a real opportunity to redevelop the mall into the true community center that old Orleans needs. The area beside the old Town hall could be bulldozed and remade, that would be a great sight to behold.

Finally, Trim. Plenty of opportunity here as a gateway into 'exurban' ottawa to hold business offices and the like. Unfortunately it seems like Brigil has put down a fat claim on all of green field land to build a set of towers that have NO amenities even considered. It would also be wonderful to imagine the city improving the connections to Petrie and upgrading facilities there, as its a real gem once you get past the ecoli.

Overall, its exciting to see Orleans have some real developments that are North of Innes road, but I don't know how they'll shape up.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

Thanks, in the meantime at least we have Stage 2 East to be excited about and all that it may do for development along St Joseph! I feel like the prospects are more exciting in the East for large scale changes than the West since that extension is already going through somewhat more urban residential areas with a longer history of condo and apartment buildings.

Interesting. I feel exactly the opposite. The east extension is going through a bunch of single family homes that will be difficult to redevelop with any significant density, unless the city expropriates them for the developer.

In the west, there are many TOD opportunities, especially along Richmond Rd where there are a bunch of car dealerships, strip malls, and even some small apartment buildings that could easily be redeveloped (granted, south of Byron has similar obstacles to Orleans).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interesting. I feel exactly the opposite. The east extension is going through a bunch of single family homes that will be difficult to redevelop with any significant density, unless the city expropriates them for the developer.

The owners, not the developer.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The owners, not the developer.

You think the owners of the houses will request that the city expropriate their homes?

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by GradualFuture

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but as a 25 year resident of Orleans its difficult to imagine WHERE any large scale changes could occur. There is so much damn low density residential along the LRT east. Here are my thoughts on it.

Thanks for the comments guys.

I can take this opportunity to be clearer about what I meant. In my post I was thinking particularly about the transformation of St Joseph as a main street for Orleans, which has already changed a lot since the community's roots back in the 1800s. The street has amazing plaques detailing the area's history but not much of that heritage is maintained.

Given that so much was replaced or filled in by little strip malls with parking lots, garages/mechanics and a few amenities like banks and restaurant chains, I think there is a lot of potential for a real transformation of the area with multistory condos or offices that have mixed uses and ground level retail (like in Westboro). Don't get me wrong, I actually quite like St Joseph as a main street, and feel even with its changes since the inception of the community, it is a place with grit and character that makes Innes seem much less interesting, sterile and cookie-cutter by comparison. However, something that I feel Westboro has done well is create that urban feel through new buildings that transform the streetscape and offer a really nice pedestrian and transit friendly atmosphere.

With three stations so close to St Joseph (Jeanne D'Arc, Concent Glen and Place D'Orleans) I am just really excited about the possibilities for building that street into something transformative for Orleans. Definitely agree though about the lack of opportunities beyond that street outside of Place D'Orleans though given all the single family homes!

Ultimately though I think I am more excited about the potential than what will actually likely happen. I hope we take advantage of the possibilities!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

You think the owners of the houses will request that the city expropriate their homes?

No, I'm saying that if there are homes in the way of something and they need to be expropriated, you'll be expropriating them from the current owner, not the long-departed developer.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

No, I'm saying that if there are homes in the way of something and they need to be expropriated, you'll be expropriating them from the current owner, not the long-departed developer.

I said "for the developer" not from the developer.

Do you think those homes near the 174 could be considered Blight?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

Thanks for the comments guys.

I can take this opportunity to be clearer about what I meant. In my post I was thinking particularly about the transformation of St Joseph as a main street for Orleans, which has already changed a lot since the community's roots back in the 1800s. The street has amazing plaques detailing the area's history but not much of that heritage is maintained.

Given that so much was replaced or filled in by little strip malls with parking lots, garages/mechanics and a few amenities like banks and restaurant chains, I think there is a lot of potential for a real transformation of the area with multistory condos or offices that have mixed uses and ground level retail (like in Westboro). Don't get me wrong, I actually quite like St Joseph as a main street, and feel even with its changes since the inception of the community, it is a place with grit and character that makes Innes seem much less interesting, sterile and cookie-cutter by comparison. However, something that I feel Westboro has done well is create that urban feel through new buildings that transform the streetscape and offer a really nice pedestrian and transit friendly atmosphere.

With three stations so close to St Joseph (Jeanne D'Arc, Concent Glen and Place D'Orleans) I am just really excited about the possibilities for building that street into something transformative for Orleans. Definitely agree though about the lack of opportunities beyond that street outside of Place D'Orleans though given all the single family homes!

Ultimately though I think I am more excited about the potential than what will actually likely happen. I hope we take advantage of the possibilities!

To make St. Joseph Boulevard more pedestrian friendly and urban (like Richmond Road in Westboro), there needs to be a frequent bus route running along St. Joseph Boulevard. LRT is 3 or 4 blocks away even at station locations so not ideal for pedestrian traffic.

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

To make St. Joseph Boulevard more pedestrian friendly and urban (like Richmond Road in Westboro), there needs to be a frequent bus route running along St. Joseph Boulevard. LRT is 3 or 4 blocks away even at station locations so not ideal for pedestrian traffic.

The bus observation is a great point and a disappointment of mine! As far as I know, there is no route that runs the length of St Joseph, let alone a frequent bus that does that.

I think there are buses that run on sections of it, but they generally come from or go to residential neighborhoods that surround it or start/end at Place D'Orleans. Ironically Jeanne D'Arc has a dedicated bus that runs from Trim to Blair down it's length but not St. Joseph!

I would love a future route along it that connects Trim station in the East with Jeanne D'Arc in the West of Orleans covering every inch of St Joseph in between.

In the absence of that though, I am grateful there will be 4 stage 2 train stations relatively close to key parts of the street with the notable absence of one at Tenth Line (though aside from the police station, there aren't many businesses or amenities there).

[roger1818]

Is there any housing along St. Joseph of significant density? If not, a bus route along it would be connecting business together but wouldn’t connect to where anyone lives.

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Is there any housing along St. Joseph of significant density? If not, a bus route along it would be connecting business together but wouldn’t connect to where anyone lives.

There is currently already a mix of housing types along St. Joseph, including the side streets that immediately branch off from it. A lot of the homes are single family houses, especially in the Western part between Jeanne D'Arc and Place D'Orleans but there are pockets in that area that include older and more dense row houses (e.g. along Orleans Boulevard near the intersection with St. Joseph). Further East but before Place D'Orleans at the intersection with Belcourt you have some density from a retirement residence that seems to be 4-5 stories, with another one also a bit farther down the road.

When you pass Place D'Orleans, there has been a fair bit of development and that has brought in a lot more density in that section of the street. Not fat from the mall is a relatively new hotel that would have a lot of visitors that could benefit from a bus route along St. Joseph. Closer to Tenth Line there are new 6 or so story condo buildings, tall row houses (e.g. garage on the first level) and stacked townhomes with lower and upper units.

Of course you also have a lot of amenities and locations of interest along St. Joseph's Western half, including the big Catholic church, two mosques, many strip malls full of stores and restaurants, garages, Service Ontario, medical and dental offices, etc. Without a doubt, Place D'Orleans mall would be one of the largest draws and it is right in the middle of the street's length, along with the redeveloped area near it which contains restaurants, shops, diverse services, a movie theater and the Shenkman Arts Centre, which is a large performing arts centre second in Ottawa only to the National Arts Centre I believe (and similar in size to Meridian Theatres at Centerpointe).

Finally as you get to Trim station at what would be the end/start of a St. Joseph route, you have the large condos at Petrie Landing which I feel could really benefit from access to anything and everything along St. Joseph that a dedicated bus route would bring.

All of what I noted here are things that exist now. There is talk about some significant redevelopment along the street with the second stage of light rail bringing stations within a 7 or so minute walk from critical points along St. Joseph. This would probably mean many new condo buildings (some potentially very tall, particularly compared to what is in the area now), with these buildings hopefully incorporating ground level commercial and retail uses.

Ultimately I am sure there is a reason that no bus route currently exists to cover the street from end to end and like it from Trim in the East to Blair station for the Train in the West. My hope though is that since there is already a lot to justify it now, the tipping point to having a route like this could come with the new developments I mentioned which just strengthened the argument further. Also, once train stations are open and many local bus routes are changed to feed those stations for downtown bound trips, it could lead to a reimagining of what bus lines serving the interior of Orleans are worthwhile and create an opening for one like this.

[RogueNacho]

Noticed on my drive in this morning that they have several dump trucks dropping off crushed stone ballast along the guideway stretch between Montreal and Jeanne D'Arc stations.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

There is currently already a mix of housing types along St. Joseph, including the side streets that immediately branch off from it. A lot of the homes are single family houses, especially in the Western part between Jeanne D'Arc and Place D'Orleans but there are pockets in that area that include older and more dense row houses (e.g. along Orleans Boulevard near the intersection with St. Joseph).

Single family homes don't provide any significant density. Row houses have more density, but I still wouldn't consider it "significant."

Further East but before Place D'Orleans at the intersection with Belcourt you have some density from a retirement residence that seems to be 4-5 stories, with another one also a bit farther down the road.

That's fair. Retirement residences can provide a reasonable source for transit ridership, especially during the day. Neither look overly huge, but it certainly is a good start.

When you pass Place D'Orleans, there has been a fair bit of development and that has brought in a lot more density in that section of the street.

Really? All I see on Google Maps is retail and then the usual mix of mostly single family homes with one small cluster of town homes. Maybe it is too new for Google?

Not fat from the mall is a relatively new hotel that would have a lot of visitors that could benefit from a bus route along St. Joseph.

I assume you mean the Quality Inn. That is in a pretty isolated location and I would imagine the vast majority of guests would have a car (with or without good bus service) and it wouldn't be a good driver of transit.

Closer to Tenth Line there are new 6 or so story condo buildings, tall row houses (e.g. garage on the first level) and stacked townhomes with lower and upper units.

Similar to the retirement homes, that is a start, but it doesn't seem enough IMHO.

Of course you also have a lot of amenities and locations of interest along St. Joseph's Western half, including the big Catholic church, two mosques, many strip malls full of stores and restaurants, garages, Service Ontario, medical and dental offices, etc. Without a doubt, Place D'Orleans mall would be one of the largest draws and it is right in the middle of the street's length, along with the redeveloped area near it which contains restaurants, shops, diverse services, a movie theater and the Shenkman Arts Centre, which is a large performing arts centre second in Ottawa only to the National Arts Centre I believe (and similar in size to Meridian Theatres at Centerpointe).

I wasn't doubting the existence of destinations. I was questioning the number of origins.

Finally as you get to Trim station at what would be the end/start of a St. Joseph route, you have the large condos at Petrie Landing which I feel could really benefit from access to anything and everything along St. Joseph that a dedicated bus route would bring.

That isn't on St. Joseph, but okay. The reality is the stretch between 10th Line and Trim is pretty dead though, so extending the route that far seems a bit pointless.

All of what I noted here are things that exist now. There is talk about some significant redevelopment along the street with the second stage of light rail bringing stations within a 7 or so minute walk from critical points along St. Joseph. This would probably mean many new condo buildings (some potentially very tall, particularly compared to what is in the area now), with these buildings hopefully incorporating ground level commercial and retail uses.

It is a pretty miserable walk to get from St. Joseph to one of the O-Train stations. I am not convicted that developers will see that as a big selling point when there are a lot of TOD opportunities elsewhere on the line.

Ultimately I am sure there is a reason that no bus route currently exists to cover the street from end to end and like it from Trim in the East to Blair station for the Train in the West. My hope though is that since there is already a lot to justify it now, the tipping point to having a route like this could come with the new developments I mentioned which just strengthened the argument further. Also, once train stations are open and many local bus routes are changed to feed those stations for downtown bound trips, it could lead to a reimagining of what bus lines serving the interior of Orleans are worthwhile and create an opening for one like this.

Time will tell, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I suspect the realigning will be similar to elsewhere on the network, where they have all the busses travel to the closest station.

[J.OT13]

Biggest cluster of density on St. Joseph at the moment.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Place+...398053539!8m2!3d45.4779697!4d-75.5162648

Two dense developments approved near Place d'Orleans.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246094

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229878&page=6

There's definitely some potential there. Another station half way to Tenth Line, or Tenth Line itself, could be beneficial (though Jasmin would be the logical next infill).

I do hope we see far more proposals along St. Joseph and abutting the 174/O-Train over the next 5 years.

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Single family homes don't provide any significant density. Row houses have more density, but I still wouldn't consider it "significant."



That's fair. Retirement residences can provide a reasonable source for transit ridership, especially during the day. Neither look overly huge, but it certainly is a good start.



Really? All I see on Google Maps is retail and then the usual mix of mostly single family homes with one small cluster of town homes. Maybe it is too new for Google?



I assume you mean the Quality Inn. That is in a pretty isolated location and I would imagine the vast majority of guests would have a car (with or without good bus service) and it wouldn't be a good driver of transit.



Similar to the retirement homes, that is a start, but it doesn't seem enough IMHO.



I wasn't doubting the existence of destinations. I was questioning the number of origins.



That isn't on St. Joseph, but okay. The reality is the stretch between 10th Line and Trim is pretty dead though, so extending the route that far seems a bit pointless.



It is a pretty miserable walk to get from St. Joseph to one of the O-Train stations. I am not convicted that developers will see that as a big selling point when there are a lot of TOD opportunities elsewhere on the line.



Time will tell, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I suspect the realigning will be similar to elsewhere on the network, where they have all the busses travel to the closest station.

I think we generally agree on single family homes, I was just emphasizing that there are some areas or neighborhoods with much smaller lots, row houses, stacked townhomes or some other characteristic that increases density, resulting in more people that could benefit from mass transit running through the area (though of course nothing like a large condo).

On the development I was mentioning "when you pass Place D'Orleans", I was speaking broadly about a few different projects, including the 6 or so story condos you quoted from me further down. So for more precision, approaching Tenth Line there are several condo buildings along Centrum and just before Vieux Silo Street between Tenth Line and the Mall. Those seem to show up on the satellite map and street view but some of the new higher density townhomes along Eric Czapnik Way may not show up yet.

In terms of the hotel (I was referring to the Holiday Inn Express but the Quality Inn is there too), I think a lot depends on the person staying there. We recently had two sets of family members visiting us that opted to stay there instead of downtown. In one case they rented a car, while in the other, they walked to meet us at home or along St Joseph and got driven home late in the evening. I definitely wouldn't expect that hotel to drive much public transit use but a bus could be useful for some guests and I am sure many will appreciate a station along a train line that will take them all the way to downtown and beyond. This falls more in the every little bit can help category.

On your point about referring to Origins over destinations, this ties into my Petrie Landing point and your comment that those condos aren't along St. Joseph. While that's true, the Trim area is a logical place to have the line start/finish, and if the people in Petrie Landing want to access the amenities and destinations along St Joseph without driving, a bus route primarily along St Joseph (including one at a higher frequency) would be easier to justify if it gets the boost in usage that the large development at Petrie Landing represents.

I agree with you that the stretch between Tenth Line and Trim doesn't offer much, but there are a few reasons to cover it. One is obviously connecting those people at Petrie Landing to St Joseph but another is connecting guests from other parts of Orleans to them (likely not a huge driver of demand though). The police station at Tenth Line offers certain services that are not everywhere in the city, like collision reporting, and you have the Quality Inn you mentioned nearby. As you approach Trim, St Joseph gets busier again with restaurants, a Canadian Legion, stores (e.g., musical instruments), Orleans Bowling Centre, day cares and so on right along or just off Taylor Creek Drive.

We have talked a lot about the Eastern half of St. Joseph and can spend a lot of time also talking about the Western half near Jeanne D'Arc and all that could draw people from other parts of Orleans there.

On the final point you made about it being a miserable walk to or from train stations and that discouraging development along St. Joseph as a result, I have had a different experience. I often walk from the Northern starting point of Orleans Boulevard near the river to St. Joseph and that takes me about 20 minutes. From my home to the Convent Glen O-Train station is about 12 minutes and from the station to the Orleans Boulevard/St Joseph intersection is only about 7 minutes. Of course that walk will get longer the further along one is on St Joseph from the four Orleans stations (and becomes unrealistic close to Tenth Line), a lot of places along St Joseph would be about a 15 minute walk to the stations. This theoretical bus line we are talking about would make it more convenient for some but a lot of people (myself included) would likely opt for the train with or without the bus alternative (especially with a bus pass making a one or two stop trip worthwhile).

Time will tell what direction Orleans will go and what impact the expansion of the O-Train will have on development but I can't imagine that St Joseph will be able to resist pressure pressures of redevelopment for too long!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by GradualFuture

Montreal Station is a big head scratcher, huge beautiful station but there is nothing on the East side of it and you have to walk ~400m JUST to get to the business park entrance or the strip malls along Montreal road there.

It's not a head-scratcher when you consider that it is the connection between the LRT and the buses that will still be trundling along Montreal Road for the next couple hundred years, with maybe a couple of isolated "priority" measures.