Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, one always wonders. I think there'll always be ups and downs but the trendline overall seems pretty clear.

As for Holness, maybe his next gig could be the Chief of Staff of Air Canada's CEO? He's got the right attitude it seems, plus Holness is actually bilingual which will come in handy for deflecting nasty questions from the Frenchies!

disqualified for knowing French

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Discussions in the ROC (remember, I grew up and there and still have a good portion of my personal entourage there) often segue towards Quebec somehow being morally flawed, citing anything from Bill 21 to various corruption scandals.

On the other hand, I have to say that Quebec generally doesn't view the ROC as being morally flawed in this way. They don't really think that ROCers are worse than them, only that they're fairly different people from them who for some quixotic reason pig-headly insist that we're essentially the same.

(Note that I also admit that Québécois sometimes tend to exaggerate the differences between them and ROCers.)

The 'moral flaw' aspect is the latent British WASP gene manifesting.

It takes different shapes over the course of time, but it emanates most distinctly from the elite. It now seemingly is engaged in a kind of weird war with itself as it grapples with how to cope with the 21st century and the contradictions of the current spirit of the times that it has adopted.

I guess it's nice to know that Quebec just thinks the ROC is dumb, not immoral?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I can kind of see the double standard you're talking about, but I think it comes down to the fact that there's nothing that English Canadians are doing internally in their own provinces that offend fundamental French cultural sensibilities, at least not proposed laws, while Bill C-21 is an official attack against freedom of religion, which is at the heart of what Anglo-Saxon people think is good and holy.

Now, obviously, English-speaking cultures haven't been perfect at practicing what they preach in the past, but find me another culture that takes freedom of religion as seriously and sacrosanct as English Canada in 2021?
.

I think your take is pretty accurate, though I think the general lack of reactions from Quebec to XYZ in the ROC isn't so much because there isn't anything there that we might object to, but rather the rock-bottom amount of attention paid to goings-on in the ROC by people here and our media. People just don't know and don't care.

Though there are some exceptions, but even so they're more reactive than anything stemming from an interest in peeking over the fence to see what's going on.

For example, when some people in the ROC were whipping up a storm over Bill 21, a number of Quebec media outlets (I recall a satirical piece on Infoman for example) went across Canada to find examples of how you guys were bible-thumpers compared to us. And so they found a bunch of place (including provincial legislatures) where a prayer (often the Christian Lord's Prayer) was recited before meetings of elected bodies. This kind of practice seems at best outdated and at worst backward to most people in Quebec. Of course the publicly-funded separate Catholic school system in Ontario has come up as well.

But there aren't that many examples of this, which explains why the average Québécois is generally too clueless about the ROC to have any harsh views on societal specifics.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

The 'moral flaw' aspect is the latent British WASP gene manifesting.

It takes different shapes over the course of time, but it emanates most distinctly from the elite. It now seemingly is engaged in a kind of weird war with itself as it grapples with how to cope with the 21st century and the contradictions of the current spirit of the times that it has adopted.

I guess it's nice to know that Quebec just thinks the ROC is dumb, not immoral?

Not even dumb. Just out of touch - and even so that's only with respect to us. Not so much with respect to other stuff.

The ROC is generally regarded as a good, enviable society. It just isn't "ours".

Like a Quebec political scientist (who may have been Stéphane Dion's father IIRC) said during a national forum at the height of the Meech debate: we like you, but we don't want to be you.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I can't comment on whether English Canadians really believe they are morally superior to French Canadians. Nobody I know has said that to me, so our evidence is kind of a he-said/she-said.

Well, I have observed that in the absence or at least the elusiveness of many of the usual traits of nationhood, there is at least a subtle sense that the ROC "gets things right" compared to its two neighbours: Quebec and the USA.

Every nation does this to some degree of course, but I think the ROC has relied on this more than most in terms of identity-building.

BTW I got this idea from the Canadian-born US economist John Kenneth Galbraith, whom I heard speak when I was in university. It was during a debate over free trade with the US.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I can't comment on whether English Canadians really believe they are morally superior to French Canadians. Nobody I know has said that to me, so our evidence is kind of a he-said/she-said.

There's absolutely zero way to assert this one way or the other.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I can kind of see the double standard you're talking about, but I think it comes down to the fact that there's nothing that English Canadians are doing internally in their own provinces that offend fundamental French cultural sensibilities, at least not proposed laws, while Bill C-21 is an official attack against freedom of religion, which is at the heart of what Anglo-Saxon people think is good and holy.

Quebec can be pretty insular. I wonder if they even care all that much about Ontario's provincial civil servant dress codes. The tension, such as it is, depends not just on a difference of opinion but with English Canadians' implicit assumption that their values (some of which are 2-5 years old) must be sanctimoniously exported to Quebec.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

The tension, such as it is, depends not just on a difference of opinion but with English Canadians' implicit assumption that their values (some of which are 2-5 years old) must be sanctimoniously exported to Quebec.

I think the circumstances in which Bill 21 was tabled by the CAQ - like invoking the notwithstanding clause to escape Charter challenges - was bound to attract legal scholars from across the country like moths to a flame and thus to generate some media interest from outside the province.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I think the circumstances in which Bill 21 was tabled by the CAQ - like invoking the notwithstanding clause to escape Charter challenges - was bound to attract legal scholars from across the country like moths to a flame and thus to generate some media interest from outside the province.

Maybe but I would not say the media coverage of this has a 'scholarly legal debate' feel overall, which would presumably be about whether or not the procedure is allowed rather than how evil it is to use it. Not a lot of people argue that Quebec's use of the notwithstanding clause is illegal. They say it is immoral.

As a minor side historical point I don't think Quebec (I believe led by the obviously obstructionist PQ at the time) participated in the Kitchen Accord that introduced the notwithstanding clause. So Quebec had a process imposed on it and gets in trouble for using said process.

Part of my own perspective is that provinces are all different and I don't think we should be that upset if they end up with truly different laws. Some will perform better or worse and they will adjust accordingly, or not, with real life experimentation being much better than utopian visions. If Quebec truly is or becomes a horrible place for immigrants they will set up in Ontario instead.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Maybe but I would not say the media coverage of this has a "scholarly legal debate" feel overall, which would presumably be about whether or not the procedure is allowed rather than how evil it is to use it. Not a lot of people argue that Quebec's use of the notwithstanding clause is illegal. They say it is immoral.

As a minor side historical point I don't think Quebec (led by the PQ) participated in the "Kitchen Accord" that introduced the notwithstanding clause. So Quebec had a process imposed on it and gets in trouble for using said process.

There isn't anything in this post that I disagree with.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Quebec can be pretty insular. I wonder if they even care all that much about Ontario's provincial civil servant dress codes. The tension, such as it is, depends not just on a difference of opinion but with English Canadians' implicit assumption that their values (some of which are 2-5 years old) must be sanctimoniously exported to Quebec.

Good post again.

I think Quebec is mostly insular when it comes to its attitudes towards the ROC. It doesn't really view it as part of its national "mindspace" and in addition doesn't really find it all that interesting. (I do think this is unfair, but it is what it is.)

Beyond that I don't think that Quebec is necessarily any more insular than the ROC or any other society in the western world, really.

I mean, every society has its quirks and blind spots. So you get people in Toronto that are absolutely shocked that Québécois people have never heard of Ravi Shankar (how insular, this must explain Bill 21!) but then again most ROCers even among the more worldly types don't even know what a méchoui is, whereas Québécois who drive pickup trucks and are into huntin' and fishin' often have one up at the cottage in the summer when they are a hosting a large gathering.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think Quebec is mostly insular when it comes to its attitudes towards the ROC.

This is what I meant. Although I think some kid themselves when they say they or their compatriots are worldly and not interested in Canada because it's not good enough for them (we can't all do super easy road trips from Maple Creek to Oaxaca; we have to make do sometimes). The reality for most Canadians is that resources are finite and the easiest places to spend time in are in their home country. And even if Quebec separated from Canada it would still be next to the same places.

[davee930]

Hey any freelance Quebecers out there interested in house swapping in Vancouver for while?

We're also going to Calgary for Christmas. We have to find dog sitters. Anyone like dogs, free accomodation, amenities, and money?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is what I meant. Although I think some kid themselves when they say they or their compatriots are worldly and not interested in Canada because it's not good enough for them (we can't all do super easy road trips from Maple Creek to Oaxaca; we have to make do sometimes). The reality for most Canadians is that resources are finite and the easiest places to spend time in are in their home country. And even if Quebec separated from Canada it would still be next to the same places.

It's not just travel destinations or even mostly that even.

It's culture in general: TV, movies, music, books, food, the arts, etc.

The indifference and dismissiveness for this stuff is actually a lot stronger than the lack of interest in travelling to the ROC. (Though there is admittedly a link between the two sometimes.)

[Acajack]

Some of the nice stuff francophones (and even allophones who have integrated with us) occasionally have to deal with while living in a city that is around 90% French-speaking!

https://twitter.com/lacombemathieu/status/1460234379171704842

Priceless nugget from the radio interview:

The complainant, who is Latin American and speaks perfect French but with a fairly strong Latino accent, was even told by the (North African?, according to him) owner or manager: "why the hell are you asking for French anyway, you don't even look like a French Canadian at all!"

2021 is such fun.

[MolsonExport]

Do you ever stop to think about how much visible minorities have to deal with, on an almost daily basis? Believe me, it is way, way worse and much more frequent.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Do you ever stop to think about how much visible minorities have to deal with, on an almost daily basis? Believe me, it is way, way worse and much more frequent.

The dude who got discriminated against in this story actually is a visible minority, in case you didn't read what I posted.

[MolsonExport]

the point, missing

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

the point, missing

So a minority person getting treated like *total* shit for daring to speak French in Quebec doesn't count as a minority person being treated like shit?

You're absolutely right. There is something I am missing here.

[MolsonExport]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"