Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Wow.

Indeed.

The most I would say is that the Scots became the mercantile class of Montreal in the 1800s, and that the first settlers of the townships area were the United Empire Loyalists, but to insinuate that francophone Quebecers were merely "tenants" in their own land is pretty over the top (meaning waaaayyyy over the top).

[urbandreamer]

^Well it's rather like it was/is in Northern Ireland. (And to some extent Scotland itself.) Even Toronto is getting on this game - the wealthy landowner class is ruling over the poor tenants.

Anyway, I've been reading some interesting old books writtten c.1890s-1930s about Quebec and who really built it: the Scots! And really they built all of Canada. (And Hong Kong!)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Anyway, I've been reading some interesting old books writtten c.1890s-1930s about Quebec and who really built it: the Scots built all of Canada.

I'm pretty sure the accepted narrative in 1890 is a lot different than 2020.

Each era would have their own inherent biases (the 2020s just as much as the 1890s).

[urbandreamer]

^Of course. However it's undeniable the parallels between the built form of Montreal and Glasgow.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

People forget it was the Scots, and English Empire Loyalists, who built Quebec. The Quebecois until the 1980s were mostly poor tenants.

Still surprises me that Quebec didn't vote to secede from Canada given how poorly Anglophone Canada views and treats Quebecois. It's the one form of bigotry that is not only accepted but widely promoted in Anglophone Canada.

Conquer a group, marginalize it at every turn, and then have the gall to dismiss their achievements.

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

^And since the 80s, it's mostly been built by the mob.

Now if we're talking about Quebecois culture, well that's been mostly constructed by capitalist overlords. Take Habitant Soup for example ....

Capitalist, communist, or whatever, at least Quebec has culture unlike Anglophone Canada.

[urbandreamer]

^The mistake the English made was not conquering Quebec. They won the right to exploit them but not dominate them.

The English have a culture of tolerance.

I actually prefer Quebec to the ROC - including their approach to protecting their identity.

As for Anglophone culture, people should realize that American culture is Canadian culture because the common denominator - Scottish/Scots Irish culture is the one and same: freedom!

[davee930]

Thank God we have Tim Horton's to bring us all together

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by casper

That is a big stretch. I don't think anyone is saying the generations of people who lived in Quebec did not make a profound contribution to modern day Canada. It also should be pointed out there is a a distinction that needs to be made between Francophone Canadians and Quebec. The two are not the same.
.

It's a stretch to claim as some have said that Quebec is the "best" part of Canada, but it's not a stretch at all to claim that Canada isn't Canada without Quebec. Quebec has to a large extent defined Canada and to a large degree still does today.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by davee930

Thank God we have Tim Horton's to bring us all together

Well, not really; I miss Dunkin' Donuts...

But most Canadians hate the Maple Leafs. That is something, right?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by casper

In western Canada the most significant Francophone contribution is from the Metis. The metis number nearly half million, exist in diverse communities across the west and thanks to Louis Riel played a pivotal role is the formation of modern day western Canada.

I'd say the Métis and francophone (French Canadian) elements are quite distinct from each other in the Prairies. They've drifted apart considerably (to the point where in some ways they're almost irreconcilable today) over the past century or so.

(And BTW I'd recognize the Métis element as being slightly more significant on the Prairies than the francophone one.)

[saffronleaf]

At least we're not uncouth Aussies.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Still surprises me that Quebec didn't vote to secede from Canada given how poorly Anglophone Canada views and treats Quebecois. It's the one form of bigotry that is not only accepted but widely promoted in Anglophone Canada.

Conquer a group, marginalize it at every turn, and then have the gall to dismiss their achievements.

Capitalist, communist, or whatever, at least Quebec has culture unlike Anglophone Canada.

We learned from the best - the British!

It's our culture. Now with more America-lite flavour, less British colony aftertaste.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Still surprises me that Quebec didn't vote to secede from Canada given how poorly Anglophone Canada views and treats Quebecois. It's the one form of bigotry that is not only accepted but widely promoted in Anglophone Canada.

Conquer a group, marginalize it at every turn, and then have the gall to dismiss their achievements.

Capitalist, communist, or whatever, at least Quebec has culture unlike Anglophone Canada.

You're obviously trolling, and I probably shouldn't take the bait, but everything you're saying in bold is completely off base.

Anglophone Canada has no culture? Do you know what culture is? As long as you have people you have culture. To say otherwise is basically some form of elitism. There's culture here in Toronto. I can consume it, and I know people who produce it. Do the films they create or the music they record count for nothing? Obviously Quebec can engender its own French-language culture for local consumption but, even there, some long arm of the state has to reach out with subsidies and slap on protectionist measures and some committee has to decide what counts as Quebecois culture and what doesn't. I'm okay with this, as I am with Bill 21, since French-derived societies put more stock in positive rights and dirigisme, and it's their culture and they can do what they want, but it is absolutely wrong to say that English Canada lacks culture, or that "official" Quebec culture is the product of pure spontaneity and a plucky population dabbling in entirely new cultural mediums the likes of which the world has never seen before. No, I see the kinds of movies and music that appeal to Western, liberal secular middle class sensibilities, but in Quebec French with various Quebec in-references.


Marginalized at every turn? Quebec has basically the power to do everything on its own short of monetary policy and maintain its own armed forces. Far from being marginalized, it has often used that power to bully smaller provinces, most notably Newfoundland. It has self-made francophone billionaires and cultivated corporations that can throw their weight around, not just in Canada but globally. You're making it sound like Quebcois are the victims of university quotas and redlining. If Sylvie Tremblay of Drummondville doesn't get the mortgage rate she wants from Banque Nationale, she's free to protest in front of the Toronto back office, I guess, but it probably won't do much.

There's no bigotry here. Not only is there no punching down, but Quebec runs its own affairs and whatever some English Canadians say about it, it will fall on deaf ears. Besides, I'm sure that Quebeckers have similarly nasty things to say about us. Again, it rolls off like water on a duck's back.

[saffronleaf]

@hipsterduck

Good post will respond more thoroughly later but I do agree that Quebec's bullying of Newfoundland is sad and unacceptable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

You're obviously trolling, and I probably shouldn't take the bait, but everything you're saying in bold is completely off base.

Anglophone Canada has no culture? Do you know what culture is? As long as you have people you have culture. To say otherwise is basically some form of elitism. There's culture here in Toronto. I can consume it, and I know people who produce it. Do the films they create or the music they record count for nothing? Obviously Quebec can engender its own French-language culture for local consumption but, even there, some long arm of the state has to reach out with subsidies and slap on protectionist measures and some committee has to decide what counts as Quebecois culture and what doesn't. I'm okay with this, as I am with Bill 21, since French-derived societies put more stock in positive rights and dirigisme, and it's their culture and they can do what they want, but it is absolutely wrong to say that English Canada lacks culture, or that "official" Quebec culture is the product of pure spontaneity and a plucky population dabbling in entirely new cultural mediums the likes of which the world has never seen before. No, I see the kinds of movies and music that appeal to Western, liberal secular middle class sensibilities, but in Quebec French with various Quebec in-references.


Marginalized at every turn? Quebec has basically the power to do everything on its own short of monetary policy and maintain its own armed forces. Far from being marginalized, it has often used that power to bully smaller provinces, most notably Newfoundland. It has self-made francophone billionaires and cultivated corporations that can throw their weight around, not just in Canada but globally. You're making it sound like Quebcois are the victims of university quotas and redlining. If Sylvie Tremblay of Drummondville doesn't get the mortgage rate she wants from Banque Nationale, she's free to protest in front of the Toronto back office, I guess, but it probably won't do much.

There's no bigotry here. Not only is there no punching down, but Quebec runs its own affairs and whatever some English Canadians say about it, it will fall on deaf ears. Besides, I'm sure that Quebeckers have similarly nasty things to say about us. Again, it rolls off like water on a duck's back.

There is definitely a decent amount of palpable scorn from the ROC when it comes to Quebec. I'd agree with you that it hasn't really had much of an effect on the power relationships in Canada that have been evolving over the past decades and that generally have been resulting in Quebec slowly but surely gaining more autonomy. At least none of that has reversed the trend yet. There have always been ominous voices that have warned that Quebec (code for ethnic French Canadians) couldn't be trusted with too much power on their own, with convenient issue XYZ allegedly serving as proof. We're hearing these voices again these days, perhaps more loudly than we have in a while. As I said, we'll see how that plays out in terms of the power balance.

Now, while obviously it does exist to some degree, actual "hate" directed at the ROC in Quebec is not that common, unless people could qualify "you guys are basically the same as Americans" as being "hate". There is definitely an unsympathetic bluntness in that statement that is pretty common here. And also a bunch of other views that might not be truly hateful but are often shared bluntly and would ruffle ROCer sensibilities.

Discussions in the ROC (remember, I grew up and there and still have a good portion of my personal entourage there) often segue towards Quebec somehow being morally flawed, citing anything from Bill 21 to various corruption scandals.

On the other hand, I have to say that Quebec generally doesn't view the ROC as being morally flawed in this way. They don't really think that ROCers are worse than them, only that they're fairly different people from them who for some quixotic reason pig-headly insist that we're essentially the same.

(Note that I also admit that Québécois sometimes tend to exaggerate the differences between them and ROCers.)

[Acajack]

In other news, Balarama Holness, a former Alouettes player who was labelled the "partitionist" mayoral candidate by the francophone media for his stand on making Montreal a city-state, wanting a referendum on municipal bilingualism and generally wanting to move Montreal away from the Quebec government's clutches (he spoke in terms of "rebellion" over Bill 96) only got 7% of the vote.

The party that he heads up elected no councillors, not even in the districts with the most anglophones.

Polls had been giving him at least double that 7% support, so I wonder what was up with that.

He started his victory speech last night in English and when he finally got to French it was noticeably shorter.

He's also between active on his official party candidate social media this morning, largely in an English first, French (maybe) to follow kind of way.

I mean, obviously a Montreal anglo protest party is a totally legitimate thing if some people want to go that route, but it's likely to remain a rump and not threaten the power in any significant way.

[MolsonExport]

There is definitely a decent amount of palpable scorn from the ROC when it comes to Quebec.

and vice-versa. Cabinet ministers have uttered things like "Ontario has no culture!" (Diane Lemieux, 2001).

Vanishingly few Quebec Anglos would support making Montreal a separate province or city state, given the status quo. Now if Quebec separates, that is another story (This is not something I support, but it is understandable as well as logical: If Canada is divisible, then so too is Quebec.).

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In other news, Balarama Holness, a former Alouettes player who was labelled the "partitionist" mayoral candidate by the francophone media for his stand on making Montreal a city-state, wanting a referendum on municipal bilingualism and generally wanting to move Montreal away from the Quebec government's clutches (he spoke in terms of "rebellion" over Bill 96) only got 7% of the vote.

The party that he heads up elected no councillors, not even in the districts with the most anglophones.

Polls had been giving him at least double that 7% support, so I wonder what was up with that.

He started his victory speech last night in English and when he finally got to French it was noticeably shorter.

He's also between active on his official party candidate social media this morning, largely in an English first, French (maybe) to follow kind of way.

I mean, obviously a Montreal anglo protest party is a totally legitimate thing if some people want to go that route, but it's likely to remain a rump and not threaten the power in any significant way.

I view his campaign more as a way to draw attention to himself rather than an actual path to being mayor, unless he was delusional enough to actually believe he could win.

The best way to get attention: Be controversial, or pick at an old scab, regardless of the merit of picking at it. I'd wager that the high polling numbers were more a reflection of people knowing who he was in a field of less distinctive candidates. The dumb thing about picking at old scabs is that it takes energy away from actually dealing with the problems the city needs to address.

In fact, I'd view his 7% as undoubtedly the most stunning rebuke to any hope of the old Anglo order coming back to Montreal. If it isn't dead, it's definitely on life support in a city that used to be quite divided.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I view his campaign more as a way to draw attention to himself rather than an actual path to being mayor, unless he was delusional enough to actually believe he could win.

The best way to get attention: Be controversial, or pick at an old scab, regardless of the merit of picking at it. I'd wager that the high polling numbers were more a reflection of people knowing who he was in a field of less distinctive candidates. The dumb thing about picking at old scabs is that it takes energy away from actually dealing with the problems the city needs to address.

In fact, I'd view his 7% as undoubtedly the most stunning rebuke to any hope of the old Anglo order coming back to Montreal. If it isn't dead, it's definitely on life support in a city that used to be quite divided.

Yeah, one always wonders. I think there'll always be ups and downs but the trendline overall seems pretty clear.

As for Holness, maybe his next gig could be the Chief of Staff of Air Canada's CEO? He's got the right attitude it seems, plus Holness is actually bilingual which will come in handy for deflecting nasty questions from the Frenchies!

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Discussions in the ROC (remember, I grew up and there and still have a good portion of my personal entourage there) often segue towards Quebec somehow being morally flawed, citing anything from Bill 21 to various corruption scandals.

On the other hand, I have to say that Quebec generally doesn't view the ROC as being morally flawed in this way. They don't really think that ROCers are worse than them, only that they're fairly different people from them who for some quixotic reason pig-headly insist that we're essentially the same.

I can kind of see the double standard you're talking about, but I think it comes down to the fact that there's nothing that English Canadians are doing internally in their own provinces that offend fundamental French cultural sensibilities, at least not proposed laws, while Bill C-21 is an official attack against freedom of religion, which is at the heart of what Anglo-Saxon people think is good and holy.

Now, obviously, English-speaking cultures haven't been perfect at practicing what they preach in the past, but find me another culture that takes freedom of religion as seriously and sacrosanct as English Canada in 2021?

I can't comment on whether English Canadians really believe they are morally superior to French Canadians. Nobody I know has said that to me, so our evidence is kind of a he-said/she-said.