Federal Government & Politics | Election 2021 FORUM POLL

[Tg11]

Y'all cannot even complain about the elections being rigged or even complain about Trudeau winning a 3rd term. Why? Because all of y'all had a chance to go out there and make a difference by voting and either you didn't or you just chose not to

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

Western alienation is very real and in many ways is similar to how those in the Maritimes and Newfoundland feel regarding central Canada. The plain reality is about 60% of Canadians live in a (relatively) small band from Windsor to Quebec City. Politics is absolutely dominated by the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal elites. I mean, I live almost 3000 km away from Ottawa. That's the same distance as Lisbon to Berlin.

It really goes back to before the prairies even became provinces. Louis Riel was killed 136 years ago and his views can at least partially be considered Western Alienation and resentment at Ottawa imposition. Our entire political elite from the 1880s until the Depression were either UK or Ontario born. Saskatchewan and Alberta became two separate provinces (instead of one large one) was to subdue the political influence of the prairies.

The Depression hit the prairies harder than Ontario and Quebec. The helped created populist movements in the CCF and Social Credit parties. Those alternative parties did far better in western Canada than central Canada (at least, pre-1960) and can largely be attributed to westerners feeling the PCs and Liberals were not representing them.

Things got a lot worse in the PET days, with the NEP still being a source of contention to this day. We've basically been dealing with the repercussions of this era through its manifestation of Reform->Alliance->Further right Conservatives to this day.

The prairies have large agricultural economies and heavy reliance on natural resources. This will always put us at odds with a largely urban and service economy of Central Canada. It should be no surprise that the further the economies go from resource-based the further they go from the far-right rural mindset (see, Winnipeg, Victoria, Vancouver).

Even things like Bell buying out MTS are seen as Central Canada taking economic advantage of western Canadians.

Not all of us feel this way (I certainly don't), but it's hard to not empathize with someone in the oil, wheat, or potash world who looks at both the federal Conservatives and federal Liberals as groups that don't care about him.

Equalization payments are part of it. Quebec politics are too. But there has been a steady undercurrent of western alienation that ebbs and flows on the times, and has been here since Confederation.

It's just the simple reality of how our country was settled, is developed, and the economic realities of diverse regions.

Great post. Just curious how do you explain the Stephen Harpers and Jason Kenneys who are originally from Ontario but bray the loudest about Western alienation??

[jigglysquishy]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Great post. Just curious how do you explain the Stephen Harpers and Jason Kenneys who are originally from Ontario but bray the loudest about Western alienation??

I think with Harper it was genuine. He grew up in the oil industry and moved to Calgary at age 21. NEP was a thing from age 20 to age 25. Reform was created at age 28. He experienced western alienation first hand.

Jason Kenney is more of an opportunist, though he did live in western Canada starting in his teens.

I think they provide the perspective of seeing Ontario and the west firsthand and see the difference in expectation, attitude, and treatment.

Still, the loudest voice of western alienation that we've had is Alberta born Preston Manning, and son of an Albertan premier.

We even see it a bit in the NDP, who has been the largest progressive voice on the prairies since the 50s.

[MolsonExport]

There is no greater zealot than the converted.

[ssiguy]

There will always be Western alienation and much of that is simple demographics........the East has a lot more people than the West. We have not seen a similar situation in the US because their centre of population has moved significantly is the post-war period. Americans have moved en masse to the West and South but this has not happened in Canada. Our population centre hasn't budged since the war and most of the gains in BC & Alberta have not been at the expense of the Ontario & Quebec but rather Sask/Man.

There is, however, one issue that has grown Western Alienation which is completely political...........equalization. Even a established Ottawa Mandarin would have a hard time trying to explain our equalization formula because it is completely non-sensical.

Ottawa has created an equalization system written by and for Ontario & especially Quebec thru this nebulous concept of "revenue potential". Despite all the political speak it basically boils down to a simple concept.............if it's liquid that you can drink it's not a potential revenue and if it's a liquid you can't, it is.

The worse is yet to come as Alberta's oil sector goes into decline and it's revenue potential plunges as we wean ourselves off oil and conversely water supply becomes more important as we become more dependent upon it for clean energy like hydro and hydrogen.

How Ottawa will be negotiate this minefield is anyone's guess but there will be no question that when it's all said and done it will be Quebec that eventually benefits and Alberta that will still end up carrying the burden and that's when Alberta separation will move from a side show to a real movement with mass appeal.

[whatnext]

Interestingly, defrocked Liberal candidate Kevin Vuong did pull off a win in Spadina-Fort York and will sit as an Independent.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/09/22/toronto-liberal-kevin-vuong-sexual-assault/

Personally, I was never a fan of the Libs dumping him when the charges against him had been dropped. That's was presumption of guilt which isn't how our legal system works.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

I think with Harper it was genuine. He grew up in the oil industry and moved to Calgary at age 21. NEP was a thing from age 20 to age 25. Reform was created at age 28. He experienced western alienation first hand.

Jason Kenney is more of an opportunist, though he did live in western Canada starting in his teens.

I think they provide the perspective of seeing Ontario and the west firsthand and see the difference in expectation, attitude, and treatment.

Still, the loudest voice of western alienation that we've had is Alberta born Preston Manning, and son of an Albertan premier.

We even see it a bit in the NDP, who has been the largest progressive voice on the prairies since the 50s.

REEFwaaaaaaaAAARRRRMMMMM!!!!!

I used to see him at the mega church my friend’s family attended growing up. Now he just pollutes the airspace with his Manning Institute.

[jigglysquishy]

I never liked Preston Manning, though I do like his occasional appearances on CBC. I still blame him for killing the old PCs and pushing the Canadian Tories further right.

It's interesting that the leaders of the two new right wing parties in the last 40 years are sons of famous politicians.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Interestingly, defrocked Liberal candidate Kevin Vuong did pull off a win in Spadina-Fort York and will sit as an Independent.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/09/22/toronto-liberal-kevin-vuong-sexual-assault/

Personally, I was never a fan of the Libs dumping him when the charges against him had been dropped. That's was presumption of guilt which isn't how our legal system works.

I haven't been following that specific case, but I'd still caution that charges being dropped doesn't equal an exoneration. It often just means that prosecution doesn't consider there to be sufficient evidence to achieve a criminal conviction. But that doesn't mean there was insufficient evidence to conclude that there was some level of inappropriate behaviour. After all, there are lots of things that a person can do that would make them unsuitable for a particular job or that would justify a political party not wanting to associate with them that don't rise to the level of criminal prosecution.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I haven't been following that specific case, but I'd still caution that charges being dropped doesn't equal an exoneration. It often just means that prosecution doesn't consider there to be sufficient evidence to achieve a criminal conviction. But that doesn't mean there was insufficient evidence to conclude that there was some level of inappropriate behaviour, and there are lots of things that a person can do to make them unsuitable for a particular job or to justify a political party not wanting to associate with them that don't rise to the level of criminal prosecution.

I believe the allegation was that he tickled a woman’s neck without her consent after they went to sleep in bed together. I’m not sure if that’s makes him a sexual predator worthy of being cancelled.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Great post. Just curious how do you explain the Stephen Harpers and Jason Kenneys who are originally from Ontario but bray the loudest about Western alienation??

The converted are usually the greatest zealots. (It's logical, too; in their case it's a choice.)

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by theman23

I believe the allegation was that he tickled a woman’s neck without her consent after they went to sleep in bed together. I’m not sure if that’s makes him a sexual predator worthy of being cancelled.

I remember in 2007 when the Conservatives kicked former MP Bill Casey out of caucus for voting against the Conservative budget. He went on to serve several terms as an independent and eventually a Liberal MP.

A party is ultimately just an organized club exercising their right to free association, so I'm not sure that one of them not wanting to associate with someone equates to them being "canceled'. Although that term has become so overused to the point of meaninglessness, I suppose anything can be called cancellation now.

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Interestingly, defrocked Liberal candidate Kevin Vuong did pull off a win in Spadina-Fort York and will sit as an Independent.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/09/22/toronto-liberal-kevin-vuong-sexual-assault/

Personally, I was never a fan of the Libs dumping him when the charges against him had been dropped. That's was presumption of guilt which isn't how our legal system works.

They dropped him because he never disclosed the charges to them, against their rules

[Bcasey25raptor]

Western alienation isn't a problem in BC and anyone who claims it is is a grifter.

My entire life I haven't known anyone with any real grievances against Eastern Canada here, so I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Alberta however hates the east but they hate BC too.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Western alienation isn't a problem in BC and anyone who claims it is is a grifter.

My entire life I haven't known anyone with any real grievances against Eastern Canada here, so I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Alberta however hates the east but they hate BC too.

What is “Alberta”?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

I never liked Preston Manning, though I do like his occasional appearances on CBC. I still blame him for killing the old PCs and pushing the Canadian Tories further right.

It's interesting that the leaders of the two new right wing parties in the last 40 years are sons of famous politicians.

Erin O'Toole's Father is John O'Toole who was an Ontario PC MPP for Durham from 1995 to 2014 and was a part of the Mike Harris and Ernie Eves PC governments. I still remember the incident of him flipping the bird at an NDP MPP across the floor in 2003:

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Western alienation isn't a problem in BC and anyone who claims it is is a grifter.

My entire life I haven't known anyone with any real grievances against Eastern Canada here, so I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Alberta however hates the east but they hate BC too.

Definitely not in Metro Vancouver, but the whole province?

Anecdotally, I did see a lot of signs for the Maverick Party when I was in the Comox Valley last weekend.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Definitely not in Metro Vancouver, but the whole province?

Anecdotally, I did see a lot of signs for the Maverick Party when I was in the Comox Valley last weekend.

There are tens of thousands of Albertans in southern BC including Vancouver Island.
I think there's even Westjet flights to Calgary from Comox.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Western alienation isn't a problem in BC and anyone who claims it is is a grifter.

My entire life I haven't known anyone with any real grievances against Eastern Canada here, so I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Alberta however hates the east but they hate BC too.

my feed is full of it, I grew up in NE BC and they vote Liberals Provincially and Conservatives federally and don't understand why they work their asses off so Quebecers can live off their money.

Canada is run by an Eastern Dictatorship and unless BC gets proportional representation we need to separate is their mantra.

Here is what one woman wrote about some comments about why/how did Trudeau win? She is also an anti-vaxxer

I had commented the West separating would just be swallowed up by the USA after she had posted some crazy rant and then she followed up with this.

Which would be a hell of a lot better for us than being swallowed up by an ungrateful and unbudging quebec! We still provide huge economic transfer payments to Quebec from our oils and gas revenues but they are constantly trying to shut the entire western Canadian economy down while heavily polluting the waterways with their raw sewage! A totally hypocritical province that only thinks about quebecers and that's why we are tired of economically supporting a country that kicks its cash cow in the mouth every chance it gets! You all deserve Trudeau but we in the west are fed up and want out!

and this

and while 50% may live in those two provinces they have far more than 50% of the political seats! It will always blow me away how one province can have its own political party in a federal election and we need that in the west so we can finally get out from u set the east's thumb! Separation is our best option in an ungrateful greedy eastern dictatorship!

and this

I think if the percentage of popular vote determined the amount of seats each party held the west would feel much more fairly a represented. But a corrupt and unethical government will never all a fair voting system in Canada such as what they ran their entire campaign on when first elected in 2015

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I remember in 2007 when the Conservatives kicked former MP Bill Casey out of caucus for voting against the Conservative budget. He went on to serve several terms as an independent and eventually a Liberal MP.

A party is ultimately just an organized club exercising their right to free association, so I'm not sure that one of them not wanting to associate with someone equates to them being "canceled'. Although that term has become so overused to the point of meaninglessness, I suppose anything can be called cancellation now.

You don’t think he’s been cancelled? I imagine Vuong wouldn’t fare nearly as well as Casey if he showed up to the new MP mixer.