Quality of Canadian urbanism

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

While not quite as pronounced as in the States, I think you could make an argument for racially-motivated flight exacerbating suburbanization trends in Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, and to some extent Edmonton. There's an oft-overlooked racial lens through which we can look at spatial realities of certain groups.

For example, in Winnipeg, with capital flight to suburbs after WWII, central areas became more dilapidated and due to racist business owners and landlords, Indigenous peoples who were often coerced into moving to Winnipeg from up north dealt with de facto segregation. Businesses would not serve and landlords would not rent to Indigenous people south of Portage, for example. It's less obvious but does still happen to this day, especially on the landlord side. Only the most dilapidated corners of the city were where Indigenous residents could live in and the presence of poor and racialized people in the inner city further caused flight of middle and upper income white capital.

Hot take: I don't think people are so much concerned with the ethnicity of residents as they are with the violence and crime happening in certain inner city neighbourhoods regardless of the ethnicity of those responsible.

Imagine a North End or Central area with crime rates in line with what you'd see in a quiet suburb like, say, Westwood. Interest in those areas would explode.

I know a guy who lives on Sherbrook who has the means to live just about anywhere he wants in Winnipeg. But he is a genuinely good hearted, community first kind of guy so he stays in his home that he bought for the price of a used car 20 years ago. However, the unbelievable stories I have heard from him... he puts up with far, far more hassles than anyone would want to deal with on a regular basis. A lot of those incidents involve Indigenous people, but TBH I don't think he'd feel any better about it if they involved white people exclusively. Getting stabbed is getting stabbed, regardless of the skin colour of the person holding the knife.

EDIT: I thought I should add as a postscript... you are somewhat new to Winnipeg and you may not know this, but the serious decline of some inner city neighbourhoods is a relatively new phenomenon. The North End was pretty much a regular working class neighbourhood up until about 30-odd years ago. Rough around the edges sure, but still a place where you could raise a family. I know this because I had quite a few relatives in the area. My parents lived close to Selkirk and Salter right up until just before I was born. But once street gangs became a thing, it really changed the feel of the area and it became a much more menacing place.

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

Hot take: I don't think people are so much concerned with the ethnicity of residents as they are with the violence and crime happening in certain inner city neighbourhoods regardless of the ethnicity of those responsible.

Imagine a North End or Central area with crime rates in line with what you'd see in a quiet suburb like, say, Westwood. Interest in those areas would explode.

I know a guy who lives on Sherbrook who has the means to live just about anywhere he wants in Winnipeg. But he is a genuinely good hearted, community first kind of guy so he stays in his home that he bought for the price of a used car 20 years ago. However, the unbelievable stories I have heard from him... he puts up with far, far more hassles than anyone would want to deal with on a regular basis. A lot of those incidents involve Indigenous people, but TBH I don't think he'd feel any better about it if they involved white people exclusively. Getting stabbed is getting stabbed, regardless of the skin colour of the person holding the knife.

EDIT: I thought I should add as a postscript... you are somewhat new to Winnipeg and you may not know this, but the serious decline of some inner city neighbourhoods is a relatively new phenomenon. The North End was pretty much a regular working class neighbourhood up until about 30-odd years ago. Rough around the edges sure, but still a place where you could raise a family. I know this because I had quite a few relatives in the area. My parents lived close to Selkirk and Salter right up until just before I was born. But once street gangs became a thing, it really changed the feel of the area and it became a much more menacing place.

Areas of the North End still remain as the generally nice, upkept working class neighbourhood. It's the central core of the North End where the problems are concentrated.

Our kids before they were school age, went to a home daycare near Arlington and Church - and that street was fine.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

Areas of the North End still remain as the generally nice, upkept working class neighbourhood. It's the central core of the North End where the problems are concentrated.

Our kids before they were school age, went to a home daycare near Arlington and Church - and that street was fine.

Yeah. There are definitely different degrees of the North End.

Living at Flora and Aikins is probably a wild ride.

My brother in law lived on Boyd near Arlington until earlier this year, and there were definitely some sketchy elements nearby but generally it was fairly quiet.

Once you get closer to McPhillips (to the west) or Inkster (to the north) it's not bad.

That said, the boundaries of the "bad" North End have grown over the years.

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

Hot take: I don't think people are so much concerned with the ethnicity of residents as they are with the violence and crime happening in certain inner city neighbourhoods regardless of the ethnicity of those responsible.

Imagine a North End or Central area with crime rates in line with what you'd see in a quiet suburb like, say, Westwood. Interest in those areas would explode.

I know a guy who lives on Sherbrook who has the means to live just about anywhere he wants in Winnipeg. But he is a genuinely good hearted, community first kind of guy so he stays in his home that he bought for the price of a used car 20 years ago. However, the unbelievable stories I have heard from him... he puts up with far, far more hassles than anyone would want to deal with on a regular basis. A lot of those incidents involve Indigenous people, but TBH I don't think he'd feel any better about it if they involved white people exclusively. Getting stabbed is getting stabbed, regardless of the skin colour of the person holding the knife.

EDIT: I thought I should add as a postscript... you are somewhat new to Winnipeg and you may not know this, but the serious decline of some inner city neighbourhoods is a relatively new phenomenon. The North End was pretty much a regular working class neighbourhood up until about 30-odd years ago. Rough around the edges sure, but still a place where you could raise a family. I know this because I had quite a few relatives in the area. My parents lived close to Selkirk and Salter right up until just before I was born. But once street gangs became a thing, it really changed the feel of the area and it became a much more menacing place.

There's a definite twinge of racism to Winnipeg's history that has been documented in literature. I agree that the immediate reaction from many people is they don't want to be around impoverished areas and the associated crime that generally follows in such places. But I do think for many, it does take on a secondary, racist viewpoint, particularly against Indigenous peoples. The decades long de facto apartheid of Winnipeg's Indigenous community from others is indicative of this, as is the racist attitudes of cops and firefighters that have made the news in recent times. There is an association that these high crime, impoverished areas are very Indigenous and so it makes people think about and react to such people more broadly in a specific way, regardless of when or where they might encounter them, because these areas are so strongly associated with a specific group. You see similar stuff in the US with Blacks.

[ue]

Originally Posted by giallo

If White Rock wasn't so detached from the rest of Vancouver (besides Surrey, of course), it's a place I'd really consider living in. They've arguably done the best job (outside of the downtown peninsula) of focusing the city around the ocean, and it's got the best weather, ie. the least amount of rain in the winter, in the metro region.

This video does a decent job showing off its attributes.

• Video Link

I knew a friend who once lived in White Rock and I stayed with him while visiting Vancouver. It sure is nice down there but man is is ever far from everything. I wouldn't live there just based on that alone.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ue

I knew a friend who once lived in White Rock and I stayed with him while visiting Vancouver. It sure is nice down there but man is is ever far from everything. I wouldn't live there just based on that alone.

It's nice and does indeed have somewhat better weather but it has just about all the metro Vancouver planning issues (some of these may be good or bad depending on your perspective):

- The nice parts are mostly detached house or small walkup only and it has a small town feel, which people like, but only a tiny number of people get to live there and it has a parochial feel. You need to either have bought in the 70's or be well off to own there. Predictably during the pandemic the White Rock mayor was telling people the beach there is for White Rock people only and others (read: poor people from Surrey) should stay away.

- A rail line with at-grade crossings cuts off the entire waterfront

- It has neither good transit nor good highway connections to the city

- It's surrounded by ALR so it will probably never connect up with any other towns

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

There's a definite twinge of racism to Winnipeg's history that has been documented in literature. I agree that the immediate reaction from many people is they don't want to be around impoverished areas and the associated crime that generally follows in such places. But I do think for many, it does take on a secondary, racist viewpoint, particularly against Indigenous peoples. The decades long de facto apartheid of Winnipeg's Indigenous community from others is indicative of this, as is the racist attitudes of cops and firefighters that have made the news in recent times. There is an association that these high crime, impoverished areas are very Indigenous and so it makes people think about and react to such people more broadly in a specific way, regardless of when or where they might encounter them, because these areas are so strongly associated with a specific group. You see similar stuff in the US with Blacks.

Fair comment, I don't want to make it sound as though I'm saying racism isn't an issue, particularly in relation to Indigenous people. No question it exists.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

EDIT: I thought I should add as a postscript... you are somewhat new to Winnipeg and you may not know this, but the serious decline of some inner city neighbourhoods is a relatively new phenomenon. The North End was pretty much a regular working class neighbourhood up until about 30-odd years ago. Rough around the edges sure, but still a place where you could raise a family. I know this because I had quite a few relatives in the area. My parents lived close to Selkirk and Salter right up until just before I was born. But once street gangs became a thing, it really changed the feel of the area and it became a much more menacing place.

This sounds a lot like Vanier in east end Ottawa. It was working class but well kept when I was a kid in the 80s. I never lived there but most of my high school friends did, and my mom who was generally nervous as hell didn't mind me hanging around there after dark at all.

It started declining very rapidly in the 90s and has only very slowly started recovering in the past 10 years or so.

Other Vanier-ish parts of Ottawa to the west of downtown (Mechanicsville, Hintonburg) have almost completely gentrified at this point. There are very few working class people left there anymore.

In terms of crime, Vanier isn't so bad these days, and murders and shootings are far from being concentrated there.

There are actually more in the innermost ring semi-urban or suburban-style areas of the city where you have social housing mostly made of tower blocks and crappy townhomes built in the 60s-70s-80s.

It's in keeping with a trend that has been observed in other Canadian cities: you increasingly have downtown populated by affluent people, then a ring of semi-urban or early suburban areas (older tower blocks, crappy townhomes, stroads lined with rusty fencing and cheap retail) that is fairly poor, and then an outer ring of true suburbia and exurbia where generalized affluence dominates again.

[esquire]

^ I guess I haven't really been to those parts of Ottawa... the only somewhat sketchy parts of town I've seen are around King Edward, and that barely registers. In some respects it's hard to believe a town as polished and scrubbed as Ottawa could have a gritty underbelly.

[lio45]

Do you Winnipeggers have Street View samples of the worst areas of the North End? I'm curious! Thanks

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by ue

I knew a friend who once lived in White Rock and I stayed with him while visiting Vancouver. It sure is nice down there but man is is ever far from everything. I wouldn't live there just based on that alone.

Yes, WR/SS is indeed very nice but it is the anthesis of good urbanism. Yes it has pedestrian traffic, a very pleasant urban realm, and of course a great seaside location with wonderful views.

Of course in order for an area to be livable it actually has to be livable and the entire area isn't. WR/SS is now home to 100,000 people and there is not a SINGLE SFH listed for less than $1.1 million despite being an hour from the city in rush hour on a good day.

Is this what we want from urbanism, enclaves for the wealthy?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

Do you Winnipeggers have Street View samples of the worst areas of the North End? I'm curious! Thanks

The built environment is not really the issue so much as it is social problems. Obviously being a lower-rent area the buildings are not that well kept, but at a superficial level the North End doesn't look all that different from stable working class neighbourhoods in Winnipeg.

https://goo.gl/maps/wt7rsWS9XBEiZ2UW6 - residential street

https://goo.gl/maps/wt7rsWS9XBEiZ2UW6 - up until the late 80s I had a relative who lived in a house where the Petro-Canada is, spent a lot of time there as a kid

https://goo.gl/maps/3zCnkAZdnF2p9ETN8 - my parents lived on this block when they got married in the 70s

https://goo.gl/maps/Xk88KqRmwr6mFR9q9 - provincial public housing

https://goo.gl/maps/mQoWXHbAP1SCpLPd6 - the main commercial strip - this was a busy retail area up until about 1990

https://goo.gl/maps/zSciw97TKnqhKoTn9 - another residential street

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

https://goo.gl/maps/zSciw97TKnqhKoTn9 - another residential street

While not posh, this last one looks reasonably nice.

[Acajack]

This spot definitely has a "US inner city vibe" to me.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.9106642,...4rMx9FPKlXe90rOf8iX-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While not posh, this last one looks reasonably nice.

It's funny because it kind of is, on the surface. The stately if somewhat neglected older homes (many are actually divided up into cheap rooming houses), the tree canopy... it isn't that bad when it comes to apperances. But this is probably as high crime of a spot as you'll find anywhere in Canada. Personally I'd be OK walking around there during the daytime, but I wouldn't do it at night.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by ue

I knew a friend who once lived in White Rock and I stayed with him while visiting Vancouver. It sure is nice down there but man is is ever far from everything. I wouldn't live there just based on that alone.

And that's the main issue; it's just so detached from the rest of the metro region. Still, it's a really nice corner of the Lower Mainland. I just wish it had better connections.

[SpongeG]

Surrey AFAIK doesn't have any cannabis shops, the mayor doesn't want em, but I think they will allow a Provincial store. Anyway White Rock has quite a few of them, obviously to take advantage of the Surrey customer base, they usually have some line ups outside.

I would like to see that main road become the "Robson" Street for South of the Fraser/Surrey.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by ue

I knew a friend who once lived in White Rock and I stayed with him while visiting Vancouver. It sure is nice down there but man is is ever far from everything. I wouldn't live there just based on that alone.

I used to spend time out there, also in Tsawwassen, it's about a 45 minute drive from downtown even with high speed driving, and over an hour with traffic. Sometimes I was housesitting alone on a beautiful acre site but it felt oppressively suburban and remote even with a car. It also felt like a bit of a white enclave, but I'm not sure if it really is. The White Rock waterfront is nice and has great potential, but could be easily spoiled in many ways.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by esquire

The North End was pretty much a regular working class neighbourhood up until about 30-odd years ago. Rough around the edges sure, but still a place where you could raise a family. I know this because I had quite a few relatives in the area. My parents lived close to Selkirk and Salter right up until just before I was born. But once street gangs became a thing, it really changed the feel of the area and it became a much more menacing place.

That was my impression in the mid to late 1980s when I was in Winnipeg. The North End was synonymous with danger, but it didn't really look like it to me, and some of the people I worked with in construction lived there raising families.

Coincidentally enough, being from Hamilton I recognized the dynamic of a place's bad reputation being overblown, as that was the case with the North End in Hamilton. But that was then, over thirty years ago. Sounds like the North End in Winnipeg has changed a lot.

[ue]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Yes, WR/SS is indeed very nice but it is the anthesis of good urbanism. Yes it has pedestrian traffic, a very pleasant urban realm, and of course a great seaside location with wonderful views.

Of course in order for an area to be livable it actually has to be livable and the entire area isn't. WR/SS is now home to 100,000 people and there is not a SINGLE SFH listed for less than $1.1 million despite being an hour from the city in rush hour on a good day.

Is this what we want from urbanism, enclaves for the wealthy?

Of course not. If you look at my post history, you'll note that I advocate for the exact opposite. Nearly all of Metro Vancouver is disgustingly expensive and I feel like that's obvious. I was merely speaking to the geographic issues. A place can have a multitude of issues. For example, White Rock, in addition to being inaccessibly expensive, geographically disconnected, has a rather uninteresting built form. Meanwhile, right across the border, Blaine has some nice old buildings and somewhat more affordability. It's less fancy and vibrant but looks nicer imo. Go even further south to Bellingham and you've got some old urbanism that could go up against New West and would be better than anything outside the City of Vancouver and New West.

To your point, this egregious phenomenon of turning cities into investments and commodifying them into these sterile, gentrified enclaves of the wealthy is not specific to White Rock. It's happening all over Metro Vancouver, in Toronto, Calgary, Montreal, and Halifax. So I'm not sure why we needed to single out White Rock when the conversation was about other criticisms of it.