Transit Fantasies

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I think the WCE should be owned jointly by BC Transit and TransLink since they operate in both jurisdictions.

That doesn't solve the issue. You need someone new to be asking for money. That is why GO has never been operated by anyone besides themselves.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

And here are two more reasons: population density and land area. Using the population centre data from the 2016 census, Vancouver is less dense than Montreal and Toronto (2,584, 2,720, and 3,028 people per square kilometer, respectively), but its land area is significantly smaller (876 square kilometers vs. 1,294 and 1,793). Less density encourages more driving and less transit ridership (which is why transit mode share steadily declines from 17% in Vancouver, to 15% in Burnaby, to 9% in Surrey, and to 4% in Langley City), and less land area reduces the need for long-distance commuter trains.

Less dense, as in suburbia with the postage stamp yard and a big house? You are describing much of the Golden Horseshoe. This reason is why a skytrain will never be good beyond Surrey. A commuter train, that would work well.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Toronto: 6,417,516
Montreal: 4,247,000
Vancouver: 2,463,431

And GO Transit covers the entire Golden Horseshoe - 9,245,438. Proportionately, we should get the exact level of service/funding per capita that we're getting right now - two SkyTrains at once means we're already ahead of the curve.

Ok, let me see if I can follow your logic. 10 million people have 6 lines. 4 million people have 5 lines, but 2 million should only have one? Cannot follow that logic. If there was at least 2 WCE lines, then your logic might make some sense.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

With your attitude, the whole forum becomes Karens and WCE still doesn't get expanded.

Did I say RER should never happen? No. What I've always said is that it won't happen; we need to get the biggest bang for our buck, and RER's at the tail end of that list, right between the Third Crossing and the Sunshine Coast bridge.

I did not suggest RER. I am suggesting commuter rail, and lines that service the ferries. Those are not RER.

And the fact that you are talking about bridges shows me you do not understand why Metrolinx or EXO exist. They do not do road bridge projects. The fact that your transit agency does is part of the problem,

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Less dense, as in suburbia with the postage stamp yard and a big house? You are describing much of the Golden Horseshoe. This reason is why a skytrain will never be good beyond Surrey. A commuter train, that would work well.

If you'll do some quick Googling, you'll see plans for densification along the SkyTrain all the way to Langley. Your heavy rail doesn't even serve the density that's there now.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok, let me see if I can follow your logic. 10 million people have 6 lines. 4 million people have 5 lines, but 2 million should only have one? Cannot follow that logic. If there was at least 2 WCE lines, then your logic might make some sense.

I did not suggest RER. I am suggesting commuter rail, and lines that service the ferries. Those are not RER.

And the fact that you are talking about bridges shows me you do not understand why Metrolinx or EXO exist. They do not do road bridge projects. The fact that your transit agency does is part of the problem,

9.2 million people in a 31,562 km2 area have 526 km of heavy rail service and 2,776 km of bus service under GO. 2.5 people in a 2,883 km2 area have 69 km of heavy rail service under the WCE. Sounds like TransLink needs more buses.

Because the previously-mentioned bridge isn't good value for money either. The Sunshine Coast deserves better connections; they should not receive them before Newton and Lonsdale do. Gibsons, Sechelt and Powell River would kill to have the level of service that Tsawwassen does now.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If you'll do some quick Googling, you'll see plans for densification along the SkyTrain all the way to Langley. Your heavy rail doesn't even serve the density that's there now.

What about the existing citizens? Don't they matter?

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

9.2 million people in a 31,562 km2 area have 526 km of heavy rail service and 2,776 km of bus service under GO. 2.5 people in a 2,883 km2 area have 69 km of heavy rail service under the WCE. Sounds like TransLink needs more buses.

Because the previously-mentioned bridge isn't good value for money either. The Sunshine Coast deserves better connections; they should not receive them before Newton and Lonsdale do. Gibsons, Sechelt and Powell River would kill to have the level of service that Tsawwassen does now.

Transit agencies should not be in the business of building bridges unless those bridges are directly needed for a transit link. The fact you think otherwise is part of the problem.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What about the existing citizens? Don't they matter?

They do, which is why we're going with SkyTrain. One heavy rail station next to the Fraser with 1-2 trains an hour each way isn't going to cut it for Surrey.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Transit agencies should not be in the business of building bridges unless those bridges are directly needed for a transit link. The fact you think otherwise is part of the problem.

They don't build bridges - the province builds bridges. TransLink operates the Major Road Network that they run buses on, which includes some bridges but not others. The fact that you think Vancouver warrants (or even needs) three separate transportation authorities just because Toronto and Montreal do is part of the problem.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They do - which is why we're going with SkyTrain. One station next to the Fraser with two trains an hour each way isn't going to cut it for Surrey.

So, when does White Rock get a Skytrain? Or do they not matter?

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They don't build bridges, the province builds bridges. TransLink owns, plans and manages the ones that're on the Major Road Network they run buses on. The fact that you think Vancouver warrants (or even needs) three separate transportation authorities just because Toronto and Montreal do is part of the problem.

All highways in Ontario are owned and maintained by the province through the Ministry of Transportation. Some exceptions are the 407 which is leased to a private company. Some highways, like the Don Valley parkway is owned by the city.

The fact that Toronto and Montreal both have much better transit points to them doing something right.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, when does White Rock get a Skytrain? Or do they not matter?

Under your leadership, White Rock doesn't get heavy rail either. They don't even like the trains they have right now, or for that matter, growth in general; they get a RapidBus.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

All highways in Ontario are owned and maintained by the province through the Ministry of Transportation. Some exceptions are the 407 which is leased to a private company. Some highways, like the Don Valley parkway is owned by the city.

The fact that Toronto and Montreal both have much better transit points to them doing something right.

They say po-tay-toe, we say po-tah-toe. Neither is superior.

Both Toronto and Montreal have a bigger population, and therefore a bigger budget.
Torontonians would disagree with that statement - both they and we acknowledge the TTC as dysfunctional. As for Montreal, they're 1.75x larger... and in Quebec. Shall we all become Francophones? That might give us more funding.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Under your leadership, White Rock doesn't get heavy rail either. They don't even like the trains they have right now, or for that matter, growth in general; they get a RapidBus.

White rock has a train? I didn't know Amtrak stops there.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They say po-tay-toe, we say po-tah-toe. Neither is superior.

Both Toronto and Montreal have a bigger population, and therefore a bigger budget.
Torontonians would disagree with that statement - both they and we acknowledge the TTC as dysfunctional. As for Montreal, they're 1.75x larger... and in Quebec. Shall we all become Francophones? That might give us more funding.

BC likes to tout itself as a greener province. The lack of transit speaks otherwise.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

White rock has a train? I didn't know Amtrak stops there.

https://vancouversun.com/news/metro/move-to-oust-rails-from-white-rock-gets-a-boost

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

BC likes to tout itself as a greener province. The lack of transit speaks otherwise.

ON and QC happen to pollute 4x as much as BC - so much for train coverage. Toronto has four sports teams, why don't we have four sports teams? We should have four too!

The "green" option would be to find work in the neighbourhood instead of spending two hours commuting across the region. Obviously, that's not happening; SkyTrain and express buses are the next-best feasible thing for a metro as small as ours.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

https://vancouversun.com/news/metro/move-to-oust-rails-from-white-rock-gets-a-boost

Who would blame them? They see no benefit from it, so they want it gone. If they had some benefit from it, the urge to move it wouldn't be there.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

ON and QC happen to pollute 4x as much as BC - so much for train coverage. Toronto has four sports teams, why don't we have four sports teams? We should have four too!

The "green" option would be to find work in the neighbourhood instead of spending two hours commuting across the region. Obviously, that's not happening; SkyTrain and express buses are the next-best feasible thing for a metro as small as ours.

Ontario 14.7 million
Quebec 8.5 million
BC 5.1 million

Ontario is almost 3x as populous. So, it sounds like polluting makes some sense. Did you hear that GO is planning to electrify? So, when is the WCE doing that?

4 sports teams? The only thing Vancouver doesn't have is is an MLB team. Maybe you should.......

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Who would blame them? They see no benefit from it, so they want it gone. If they had some benefit from it, the urge to move it wouldn't be there.

Anybody who isn't a NIMBY? The BNSF was there long before White Rock; they've already turned their horns off when passing through. Moving in next to an active train line and expecting them to relocate (and in a way that makes it much harder for the trains) is as reasonable as moving next to YVR and insisting they close a runway.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ontario 14.7 million
Quebec 8.5 million
BC 5.1 million

Ontario is almost 3x as populous. So, it sounds like polluting makes some sense. Did you hear that GO is planning to electrify? So, when is the WCE doing that?

4 sports teams? The only thing Vancouver doesn't have is is an MLB team. Maybe you should.......

You're the one who insisted BC wasn't green; I've pointed out that it is, and the country agrees. If you insist on judging the province by the emissions of one train line (which are being reduced), that's on you. We're already phasing in battery buses as we speak.

Our NBA team left, and we're definitely not getting an NFL team. Nobody's fault, we just aren't a big-enough metro to justify having them. Ditto heavy rail.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Anybody who isn't a NIMBY? The BNSF was there long before White Rock; they've already turned their horns off when passing through. Moving in next to an active train line and expecting them to relocate (and in a way that makes it much harder for the trains) is as reasonable as moving next to YVR and insisting they close a runway.

Oh, you mean like how Porter is restricted from using jets on the Island Airport in Toronto? Point is, put a commuter line to it and the noise will be slightly less.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

You're the one who insisted BC wasn't green; I've pointed out that it is, and the country agrees. If you insist on judging the province by the emissions of one train line (which are being reduced), that's on you. We're already phasing in battery buses as we speak.

Our NBA team left, and we're definitely not getting an NFL team. Nobody's fault, we just aren't a big-enough metro to justify having them. Ditto heavy rail.

Toronto has an NFL team? When did they get one?

At 1/3rd the population, being 1/4 the polluters isn't really that good. 1/6th or better would be the same as half as green as Ontario on a per capita basis.
Battery buses are being phased into Toronto too.
https://www.electrive.com/2021/04/27/toronto-to-procure-300-electric-buses/
Toronto already has 60, and 300 to come by 2025. Toronto does not have trolley buses, mind you, it does have several streetcar lines.
The 99 B- Line gets only 22,000 a day. The 504 King gets over 84,000

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Oh, you mean like how Porter is restricted from using jets on the Island Airport in Toronto? Point is, put a commuter line to it and the noise will be slightly less.

Ah, the benefits of having a secondary airport downtown.

I'll assume by "noise" you mean less controversy. Seeing as White Rock also opposes street patios (because they block traffic) and building over three floors (because density is evil), that's highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Toronto has an NFL team? When did they get one?

At 1/3rd the population, being 1/4 the polluters isn't really that good. 1/6th or better would be the same as half as green as Ontario on a per capita basis.
Battery buses are being phased into Toronto too.
https://www.electrive.com/2021/04/27/toronto-to-procure-300-electric-buses/
Toronto already has 60, and 300 to come by 2025. Toronto does not have trolley buses, mind you, it does have several streetcar lines.
The 99 B- Line gets only 22,000 a day. The 504 King gets over 84,000

They don't. Not their fault either.

That IS good: instead of polluting as much per capita as Ontario, we're less than that. Obviously we can improve, but the fact remains that we're a clean province, contrary to certain opinions (and especially to Alberta and Saskatchewan). We're also ahead in green jobs, green buildings and energy efficiency.

Apples to oranges: that's a pre-lockdown number for the 504. The 99 peaked in 2019 at 57,240, and still holds the record for being the busiest bus in upper North America; it'll eventually be fully replaced by a SkyTrain that does 200,000+. But this branch of the argument is basically splitting hairs - either way, they're on transit and not in a car.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Ah, the benefits of having a secondary airport downtown.

I'll assume by "noise" you mean less controversy. Seeing as White Rock also opposes street patios (because they block traffic) and building over three floors (because density is evil), that's highly unlikely.

Oh, you mean like how the Toronto Islands have no private vehicles allowed? Ignore somewhere long enough and they eventually ignore you. Since White Rock isn't really connected to the rest of GVR, they have done things as they see fit. Since a noisy train passes through but never services the people or businesses, it makes sense that they would make some noise to get rid of it. However, if people were to be connected better to the GVA, with a WCE line, then the desire to remove the tracks would be less. The desire to keep things low also would be less too.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They don't. Not their fault either.

That IS good: instead of polluting as much per capita as Ontario, we're less than that. Obviously we can improve, but the fact remains that we're a clean province, contrary to certain opinions (and especially to Alberta and Saskatchewan). We're also ahead in green jobs, green buildings and energy efficiency.

Apples to oranges: that's a pre-lockdown number for the 504. The 99 peaked in 2019 at 57,240, and still holds the record for being the busiest bus in upper North America; it'll eventually be fully replaced by a SkyTrain that does 200,000+. But this branch of the argument is basically splitting hairs - either way, they're on transit and not in a car.

Yes, and you till have the major highways clogged with cars due to lack of transit that the Skytrain is not going to fix. How do you fix that? Toronto learned that 18 lanes is not enough. That is why they are investing in transit. That is why GO is better than it was 25 years ago.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes, and you till have the major highways clogged with cars due to lack of transit that the Skytrain is not going to fix. How do you fix that? Toronto learned that 18 lanes is not enough. That is why they are investing in transit. That is why GO is better than it was 25 years ago.

And where are Vancouver's plans to create the 401 or rip up portions of the downtown to put in the DVP? Vancouver is investing plenty in transit, which is why small Langley is getting Skytrain and the busiest bus route in North America is too. You could also argue that investing disproportionally in transit closest to the metro core is one way to encourage densification where people work and play and discourage sprawl.

With induced demand, I wouldn't be surprised if the streets are always clogged no matter how much transit you build. There will always be someone in Ladner to take the spot in the traffic jam of the Abbotsford commuter who now rides the train.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Oh, you mean like how the Toronto Islands have no private vehicles allowed? Ignore somewhere long enough and they eventually ignore you. Since White Rock isn't really connected to the rest of GVR, they have done things as they see fit. Since a noisy train passes through but never services the people or businesses, it makes sense that they would make some noise to get rid of it. However, if people were to be connected better to the GVA, with a WCE line, then the desire to remove the tracks would be less. The desire to keep things low also would be less too.

Maple Ridge and Port Moody contradict that statement, as do Langley City, Steveston and the DNV. The former have been connected by the WCE and Evergreen extension for years, yet have become more and more exclusive and/or reactionary; the latter have effectively been "ignored," yet they continue to try and attract as much density and transit as possible.

It's not about service or lack thereof, it's about your attitude toward it... and White Rock seems very intent on having West Van's attitude. On their own heads be it.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes, and you till have the major highways clogged with cars due to lack of transit that the Skytrain is not going to fix. How do you fix that? Toronto learned that 18 lanes is not enough. That is why they are investing in transit. That is why GO is better than it was 25 years ago.

Again, if a train that moves 25,000 pphpd (~20 lanes) isn't enough, then you need another train that moves 25,000; a train that moves 3,000 (4,500 if you run it thrice an hour) will make little to no difference. If we're really serious about going green, we need to remove the most cars from the road per project, and that's not done by spending twice the money on all the edge cases.

But it's true, SkyTrain can't go everywhere; that's why you add frequent bus service, because they can access the places trains can't, and for much cheaper.

Toronto's also considering putting tracks down the middle of the street to hypothetically force people off the road and into the trains. Let's not think of them as an exemplar here.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

And where are Vancouver's plans to create the 401 or rip up portions of the downtown to put in the DVP? Vancouver is investing plenty in transit, which is why small Langley is getting Skytrain and the busiest bus route in North America is too. You could also argue that investing disproportionally in transit closest to the metro core is one way to encourage densification where people work and play and discourage sprawl.

Yes, but we don't have a train line going right by swimmer's neighbourhood, or to his once-a-blue-moon ferry trip, so that means TransLink 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

And where are Vancouver's plans to create the 401 or rip up portions of the downtown to put in the DVP? Vancouver is investing plenty in transit, which is why small Langley is getting Skytrain and the busiest bus route in North America is too. You could also argue that investing disproportionally in transit closest to the metro core is one way to encourage densification where people work and play and discourage sprawl.

With induced demand, I wouldn't be surprised if the streets are always clogged no matter how much transit you build. There will always be someone in Ladner to take the spot in the traffic jam of the Abbotsford commuter who now rides the train.

The Gardiner, not DVP is the one downtown.

The problem is only focusing on one mode of transit.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Maple Ridge and Port Moody contradict that statement, as do Langley City, Steveston and the DNV. The former have been connected by the WCE and Evergreen extension for years, yet have become more and more exclusive and/or reactionary; the latter have effectively been "ignored," yet they continue to try and attract as much density and transit as possible.

It's not about service or lack thereof, it's about your attitude toward it... and White Rock seems very intent on having West Van's attitude. On their own heads be it.

West Van, another place with a lack of good transit.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Again, if a train that moves 25,000 pphpd (~20 lanes) isn't enough, then you need another train that moves 25,000; a train that moves 3,000 (4,500 if you run it thrice an hour) will make little to no difference. If we're really serious about going green, we need to remove the most cars from the road per project, and that's not done by spending twice the money on all the edge cases.

But it's true, SkyTrain can't go everywhere; that's why you add frequent bus service, because they can access the places trains can't, and for much cheaper.

Toronto's also considering putting tracks down the middle of the street to hypothetically force people off the road and into the trains. Let's not think of them as an exemplar here.

Oh, you mean like the Kitchener line? It used to only run to Georgetown. I wonder what convinced them to extend it? Could it be the desire to avoid the higher cost of widening the highway?

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yes, but we don't have a train line going right by swimmer's neighbourhood, or to his once-a-blue-moon ferry trip, so that means TransLink 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

I like how you are assuming where I live.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

West Van, another place with a lack of good transit.

And with good reason.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Oh, you mean like the Kitchener line? It used to only run to Georgetown. I wonder what convinced them to extend it? Could it be the desire to avoid the higher cost of widening the highway?

Who knows? Maybe it was having a big-enough town on the other side to justify the effort? I wonder why they gave up the pilot run to Guelph in the Nineties?

Good thing they have a big-enough metro to connect to once they make it into Toronto.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I like how you are assuming where I live.

They way you're fighting for gold-plated trains to the middle of nowhere, it's not hard to guess.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And with good reason.

Which is?

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Who knows? Maybe it was having a big-enough town on the other side to justify the effort? I wonder why they gave up the pilot run to Guelph in the Nineties?

Good thing they have a big-enough metro to connect to once they make it into Toronto.

Nope. Had everything to do with the traffic n the 401 was getting ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They way you're fighting for gold-plated trains to the middle of nowhere, it's not hard to guess.

Well, Let's here it.....

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Which is?

Nope. Had everything to do with the traffic n the 401 was getting ridiculous.

Well, Let's here it.....

Being a bunch of reactionary snobs on the edge of town who're hard to reach and who already rejected a RapidBus. Your "connectivity prevents NIMBYism" theory has multiple aforementioned counterexamples; rather, West Van and White Rock's isolationism stems almost completely from white flight. It'll take a demographic shift away from the rich Boomers and/or a gridlock-induced brain drain before they start inviting density and transit again.

And seeing how the entire Kitchener line performs only slightly better than the WCE (~800 riders/day between Kitchener and Georgetown, 13k on the whole line... less than two full traffic lanes), that was most definitely not a waste of money.

Yes, let's hear it. I've yet to see anybody pushing Rail for the Valley who didn't have a personal stake in it.