Transit Fantasies

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Can't be justified, just like every idea for rail in Delta. Unless you know of a way to attract 16,000 more riders that nobody else does? Even if they all switched to transit, the entire peak season SWB-TSA route is barely 13k/day as it is.

https://moovitapp.com/greater_vancouver_...idx=5&customerId=4908&ref=2&poiType=line
https://www.bcferries.com/routes-fares/s...09/07/2021&scheduleReturnDate=09/06/2021

.... well, there's your problem.

At first I thought that the bus was on a frequency that was weird. Then I looked at the ferry from Victoria. Now, still think it is still weird.
Please answer the following questions:
1) The ferries from Victoria arrive every hour at 35 minutes past the hour. Why is it that the bus leaves before it has arrived?(33 minutes past the hour for some.)
2) The ferries from Victoria arrive every hour at 35 minutes past the hour. Why are most of bus departures much earlier? (16,17,17 minutes past the hour)

So, how would I get 16k more? For starters, the ferry is arriving at a set time, have the existing transit do the same. That would mean it is predictable. That would mean it is easily planned for. Right now, with the existing schedule, it is all but useless unless you want to wait and hope not to see the bus leave as the ferry docks.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There you go again. "All you'd really need to do" as if the freight rails were deserted (rather than 99% busy) and your route was a straight shot to downtown (instead of winding all over the place). That's $6 billion worth of track-twinning to get to Waterfront four minutes later than the bus/SkyTrain combo, assuming both leave at the same time. And there's no room at the ferry for a rail line, so it'd have to terminate at Tsawwassen Mills... meaning you'd have to take a bus anyway.

The good thing about passenger service is it is predictable. The route is about the same length as the existing WCE. The WCE does it in about 1:15, so it could be expected that Terminal to Waterfront would take that long too.
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Tsawwasse...d49.2858634!2m3!6e0!7e2!8j1631000100!3e3
The existing method, would take about the same time, but that is only if you are going to Waterfront. What if you wanted to go to Scott Rd Station? It would be shorter.

Looking at it, it is not easy or quick to get to Waterfront. It would be even worse to get elsewhere too.

The ferry terminal is built on a man made peninsula. Right now, it is designed around the all mighty car(Of which 3 versions sit in my driveway....) There is no reason it cannot be widened to fit a station and tracks to it. That would mean a walk down from the ferry to the train station. No bus involved on that end.

Originally Posted by Sheba

As we are reminded on a regular basis by WCE delays. Is it any wonder TransLink mostly aims to build grade separated Skytrain instead of any variety of on-ground rail.

The problem you will face is what Line 1 in Toronto does - over capacity. Right now, the lines can handle it, but, let's say roughly 1000 people based on the 13k a day end up on each. That would inundate it. Now, let's assume that only 1/4 are walk ons. That is still 250 people. That is 1 Canada line car full, and that is before it gets anywhere. By the time it gets downtown, many passengers at other stations would be passed by due to lack of space. Now you are in Line 1 territory. Now you are playing catch up with some sort of relief line, aka Ontario Line, which originally was planned in 1985. That is almost 40 years. By the time it opens and provides enough relief, it will be over 50 years. Imagine putting up with an over capacity Canada Line for over 50 years?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://moovitapp.com/greater_vancouver_...idx=5&customerId=4908&ref=2&poiType=line
https://www.bcferries.com/routes-fares/s...09/07/2021&scheduleReturnDate=09/06/2021

.... well, there's your problem.

At first I thought that the bus was on a frequency that was weird. Then I looked at the ferry from Victoria. Now, still think it is still weird.
Please answer the following questions:
1) The ferries from Victoria arrive every hour at 35 minutes past the hour. Why is it that the bus leaves before it has arrived?(33 minutes past the hour for some.)
2) The ferries from Victoria arrive every hour at 35 minutes past the hour. Why are most of bus departures much earlier? (16,17,17 minutes past the hour)

So, how would I get 16k more? For starters, the ferry is arriving at a set time, have the existing transit do the same. That would mean it is predictable. That would mean it is easily planned for. Right now, with the existing schedule, it is all but useless unless you want to wait and hope not to see the bus leave as the ferry docks.

Just like with your Horseshoe Bay schedule, you're operating on perfect reliability. In practice, pulling up exactly fifteen minutes on the dot before an arrival or departure means any delay by TransLink, BC Ferries or their passengers results in either a missed connection or a hundred-metre dash. That's not predictable at all.

With the status quo, there's three buses that're each roughly half an hour between ferries. Plenty of time to use the bathroom (even with a queue), or find the rest of your group, or stop for lunch, or wait ten minutes on the bus - instead of a mad scramble for a single train for departures. You'll also note that one less trip per hour make it harder to get to the terminal.

And no, "better" service only gets you ~10k more at best: the passengers that aren't already riding the bus. Since a train's only going to slightly increase the Vancouver-Victoria demand, ridership needs to come from Delta itself. And there isn't any. Optimistically, you'll see another couple thousand from Tsawwassen Mills, its townhouses and the new casino near Ladner.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The good thing about passenger service is it is predictable. The route is about the same length as the existing WCE. The WCE does it in about 1:15, so it could be expected that Terminal to Waterfront would take that long too.
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Tsawwasse...d49.2858634!2m3!6e0!7e2!8j1631000100!3e3
The existing method, would take about the same time, but that is only if you are going to Waterfront. What if you wanted to go to Scott Rd Station? It would be shorter.

Looking at it, it is not easy or quick to get to Waterfront. It would be even worse to get elsewhere too.

The ferry terminal is built on a man made peninsula. Right now, it is designed around the all mighty car(Of which 3 versions sit in my driveway....) There is no reason it cannot be widened to fit a station and tracks to it. That would mean a walk down from the ferry to the train station. No bus involved on that end.

And if you're travelling to/from YVR, Metrotown, Langley, Coquitlam or anywhere that's not the edge of Surrey or downtown, your train is at best redundant and at worst useless. Our freight lines are only intended to haul freight. For passengers, they don't connect to anything useful.

Now you want to widen the quay? This is creeping toward $7 billion. Again, just extend the Canada Line to the mall and call it a day - that's much more accessible.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The problem you will face is what Line 1 in Toronto does - over capacity. Right now, the lines can handle it, but, let's say roughly 1000 people based on the 13k a day end up on each. That would inundate it. Now, let's assume that only 1/4 are walk ons. That is still 250 people. That is 1 Canada line car full, and that is before it gets anywhere. By the time it gets downtown, many passengers at other stations would be passed by due to lack of space. Now you are in Line 1 territory. Now you are playing catch up with some sort of relief line, aka Ontario Line, which originally was planned in 1985. That is almost 40 years. By the time it opens and provides enough relief, it will be over 50 years. Imagine putting up with an over capacity Canada Line for over 50 years?

You'll be glad to hear that we have several examples of bus lines that carry over 20k passengers a day. One even carries 50k!

At present, the 620 doesn't even warrant more than standard buses; when demand increases, we can upgrade to artics and double, even triple the frequency. That's more than enough to serve Delta and the ferry terminal combined for more than 50 years.

Edit: Regarding overflow on the Canada Line, it can be upgraded to accommodate 9,000k pphpd (2.5x) more than today. The 620 at present does maybe 180 pphpd (60 passengers/bus x 3 buses an hour), and quadruple that is 720.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Just like with your Horseshoe Bay schedule, you're operating on perfect reliability, exactly fifteen minutes on the dot before an arrival or departure. That means any delay by TransLink, BC Ferries or their passengers means either a missed connection or a hundred-metre dash. That's not predictable at all.

Status quo means there's three buses that're each roughly half an hour between ferries. Plenty of time to use the bathroom (even with a queue), or find the rest of your group, or stop for lunch, or wait ten minutes on the bus - instead of a mad scramble for a single train for departures. You'll also note that two trips per hour make it harder to get to the terminal.

And no, "better" service only gets you ~10k more at best: the passengers that aren't already riding the bus. Since a train's only going to slightly increase the Vancouver-Victoria demand, ridership needs to come from Delta itself. And there isn't any. Optimistically, you'll see another couple thousand from the Tsawwassen Mills redevelopment and the new casino near Ladner.

So, a bus leaving a few minutes earlier is better? Since dealing with the freight carriers won't be easy, someone within BC Ferries can work with Translink to come up with a schedule that is optimized for normal running and normal delays.

The timings don't make much sense unless you have a reason to delay yourself. I have never had an emergency lunch before. I have taken the ferry without a car and it was horrible to get to Waterfront. Mind you, this was before the Canada Line was finished.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And if you're travelling to/from YVR, Metrotown, Langley, Coquitlam or anywhere that's not the edge of Surrey or downtown, your train is at best redundant and at worst useless. Our freight lines are only intended to haul freight. For passengers, they don't connect to anything useful.

Now you want to widen the quay? This is creeping toward $7 billion. Again, just extend the Canada Line to the mall and call it a day - that's much more accessible.

What about the cost to make more space for the added traffic $5.7 billion and only going up. That's the current cost to do the Broadway extension. So, the extension to the mall would be around $20 billion in today's dollars. $7 Billion? That's a bargain.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

You'll be glad to hear that we have several examples of bus lines that carry over 20k passengers a day. One even carries 50k!

At present, the 620 doesn't even warrant more than standard buses; when demand increases, we can upgrade to artics and double, even triple the frequency. That's more than enough to serve Delta and the ferry terminal combined for more than 50 years.

Just because it can be done, does not mean it should be done.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, a bus leaving a few minutes earlier is better? Since dealing with the freight carriers won't be easy, someone within BC Ferries can work with Translink to come up with a schedule that is optimized for normal running and normal delays.

The timings don't make much sense unless you have a reason to delay yourself. I have never had an emergency lunch before. I have taken the ferry without a car and it was horrible to get to Waterfront. Mind you, this was before the Canada Line was finished.

If the freight trains won't cooperate with the WCE, they definitely won't cooperate with this one.

But they don't leave. They won't even arrive for at least half an hour. All the more reason to plan a lunch in advance, especially when it takes more than ten minutes just to get off the ship sometimes. It's not optimal, but neither are most commutes in Metro Vancouver; no reason to think the ferries should get preferential treatment over Surrey or Burnaby or North Van.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What about the cost to make more space for the added traffic $5.7 billion and only going up. That's the current cost to do the Broadway extension. So, the extension to the mall would be around $20 billion in today's dollars. $7 Billion? That's a bargain.

Now you're making things up (or using Patrick Condon's numbers, which is really the same thing). The Broadway extension is $2.8 billion, and the UBC extension is $3.3-3.8 billion. Both are 90% tunneled, and combined are pegged at 200k riders daily.
Elevated SkyTrain costs $4 billion from Whalley to Langley and would get 70k riders. Assuming inflation, that'd be $5 billion to Tsawwassen Mills for... 10k riders?

All of these beat $7 billion for 10k riders.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Just because it can be done, does not mean it should be done.

Which is why TransLink shouldn't spend $6-7 billion and set back 2-3 other projects for the sake of a few thousand passengers - not when a bus will do. If a B-Line could handle Broadway for 25 years, it can definitely handle Delta for 75.

[scryer]

IMO, and I have stated this before, the most logical next step for the WCE to "expand" is to first triple and quad track its current route so that passenger trains and freight trains have their own tracks like what GO does in Toronto .

That way, we can regulate and optimize service on the WCE route.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If the freight trains won't cooperate with the WCE, they definitely won't cooperate with this one.

But they don't leave. They won't even arrive for at least half an hour. All the more reason to plan a lunch in advance, especially when it takes more than ten minutes just to get off the ship sometimes. It's not optimal, but neither are most commutes in Metro Vancouver; no reason to think the ferries should get preferential treatment over Surrey or Burnaby or North Van.

You are assuming that I want preferential treatment over other areas.

I want WCE to expand beyond the original line that has been in place for over 25 years. GO and EXO have expanded far beyond their original route. Even in their first 25 years, they expanded. WCE hasn't.

Going to the Ferry terminals would be a simple fare generator. They always have walk on ridership. They always have people wanting transit. So, build out to them. For the Tsawwassen terminal, there is 20km of an extension for the Canada line. Most of that is through farmland. That means that there won't be the TOD that a Skytrain line should have.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Now you're making things up (or using Patrick Condon's numbers, which is really the same thing). The Broadway extension is $2.8 billion, and the UBC extension is $3.3-3.8 billion. Both are 90% tunneled, and combined are pegged at 200k riders daily.
Elevated SkyTrain costs $4 billion from Whalley to Langley and would get 70k riders. Assuming inflation, that'd be $5 billion to Tsawwassen Mills for... 10k riders?

All of these beat $7 billion for 10k riders.

Ok, I will use your math. Bridgeport is about 20km from Tsawwassen. The Arbutus extension is about 5km long. So, roughly 1/4 the length. 2.8 x 4 DOES NOT EQUAL 7. It equals 10.8. That is also if it were built today. Let's say it is built in 20 years, after the extensions to UBC and Langley are built. I'm willing to bet that after inflation, it will be over the $7 billion you suggest, and closer to the $20 billion, I used with basic math.

In 20 years, it could be 20k ridership.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Which is why TransLink shouldn't spend $6-7 billion and set back 2-3 other projects for the sake of a few thousand passengers - not when a bus will do. If a B-Line could handle Broadway for 25 years, it can definitely handle Delta for 75.

Define handle?
Crush loading is not handling it. The Broadway B Line was not handling it. There was no other choice.

Originally Posted by scryer

IMO, and I have stated this before, the most logical next step for the WCE to "expand" is to first triple and quad track its current route so that passenger trains and freight trains have their own tracks like what GO does in Toronto .

That way, we can regulate and optimize service on the WCE route.

That is what GO has done. Problem is, the ones who run and build the Skytrain are the same ones who run and build the WCE and they are too busy. So, what should be done first is that the WCE should be removed from Translink.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You are assuming that I want preferential treatment over other areas.

I want WCE to expand beyond the original line that has been in place for over 25 years. GO and EXO have expanded far beyond their original route. Even in their first 25 years, they expanded. WCE hasn't.

Going to the Ferry terminals would be a simple fare generator. They always have walk on ridership. They always have people wanting transit. So, build out to them. For the Tsawwassen terminal, there is 20km of an extension for the Canada line. Most of that is through farmland. That means that there won't be the TOD that a Skytrain line should have.

It does not matter what GO does. We do not have GO's budget. When the highest-performing (and only) line is at 20k, and upgrading to maybe 50k costs $2+ billion, "equal" and "preferential" treatment are basically the same thing.

A Delta-Scott Road-Waterfront train goes through Burns Bog and the exact same ALR as the Canada Line, and picks up a few thousand ferry riders a day; the WCE's $8.02 cost per boarding will multiply, and it's already a money-loser to begin with. Any real revenue or usage would come from Surrey commuters going into Vancouver.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok, I will use your math. Bridgeport is about 20km from Tsawwassen. The Arbutus extension is about 5km long. So, roughly 1/4 the length. 2.8 x 4 DOES NOT EQUAL 7. It equals 10.8. That is also if it were built today. Let's say it is built in 20 years, after the extensions to UBC and Langley are built. I'm willing to bet that after inflation, it will be over the $7 billion you suggest, and closer to the $20 billion, I used with basic math.

In 20 years, it could be 20k ridership.

Apples to oranges - the Canada Line won't be in a tunnel, it'll be on a viaduct. The Langley extension is also on a viaduct, and costs $3.9 billion over 16.5km. 3.9 x 1.2 doesn't equal 20; it equals 4.7.
Using your math, if the SkyTrain jumps from $5B to $20B, then a commuter train would jump from $7B to $28B.

One ferry terminal, one future mall, one future casino, plus two small towns (one of them strongly NIMBY). If Delta gets more than 15k within 40 years, I'm the Easter Bunny.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Define handle?
Crush loading is not handling it. The Broadway B Line was not handling it. There was no other choice.

Yet it's sustained that crush load for over a decade and counting; a RapidBus can easily handle a fraction of that for several decades. If that's a last resort, then Hastings, King George and the North Shore are last resorts and should get trains first.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It does not matter what GO does. We do not have GO's budget. When the highest-performing (and only) line is at 20k, and upgrading to maybe 50k costs $2+ billion, "equal" and "preferential" treatment are basically the same thing.

That is partly because you allow local transit to be run by a regional transit agency. The Toronto Subway is not owned by GO. The Montreal Metro is not owned my EXO. Maybe the owners of the Skytrain should not own the WCE. Then there might be the budget for it. Right now, and realistically for the next 20 years, Translink is only looking at the expansion of the Skytrain. Anything else is not even a thought to them.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

A Delta-Scott Road-Waterfront train goes through Burns Bog and the exact same ALR as the Canada Line, and picks up a few thousand ferry riders a day; the WCE's $8.02 cost per boarding will multiply, and it's already a money-loser to begin with. Any real revenue or usage would come from Surrey commuters going into Vancouver.

Wouldn't it be better to have the outlying communities, like Surrey have a WCE style of commuter train? I am not suggesting it should be high speed or high frequency, outside of the service to the ferry terminal.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Apples to oranges - the Canada Line won't be in a tunnel, it'll be on a viaduct. The Langley extension is also on a viaduct, and costs $3.9 billion over 16.5km. 3.9 x 1.2 doesn't equal 20; it equals 4.7.
Using your math, if the SkyTrain jumps from $5B to $20B, then a commuter train would jump from $7B to $28B.

One ferry terminal, one future mall, one future casino, plus two small towns (one of them strongly NIMBY). If Delta gets more than 15k within 40 years, I'm the Easter Bunny.

Hi Easter Bunny.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yet it's sustained that crush load for over a decade and counting; a RapidBus can easily handle a fraction of that for several decades. If that's a last resort, then Hastings, King George and the North Shore are last resorts and should get trains first.

Crush load is not a sustainable service. It indicates the failing of the service.
I am not suggesting that this plan is done before the UBC extension is done. However, I am suggesting that expanding of WCE to include both ferry terminals be planed and worked on.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Maybe the owners of the Skytrain should not own the WCE. Then there might be the budget for it.

Creating a separate transit authority for the WCE would not create new funding out of thin air. Anything given to the new authority would come directly out of Translink's budget, and without Translink's more profitable routes to offset the discrepancy between farebox revenues and operating expenses, the WCE would need MASSIVE handouts just to maintain current levels of service.

The three levels of government would also perform the same analysis that Migrant Coconut has done in this thread if WCE proposed new capital projects, and those governments would realize the expense is not worth the marginal political capital those projects might gain.

You could argue that a WCE-focused authority might have some additional lobbying power whereas Translink is not as focused on the WCE. This argument is probably correct, but begging Victoria and Ottawa can only get you so far, and I doubt it could get you to twenty, five, or even one billion dollars.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is partly because you allow local transit to be run by a regional transit agency. The Toronto Subway is not owned by GO. The Montreal Metro is not owned my EXO. Maybe the owners of the Skytrain should not own the WCE. Then there might be the budget for it. Right now, and realistically for the next 20 years, Translink is only looking at the expansion of the Skytrain. Anything else is not even a thought to them.

Wouldn't it be better to have the outlying communities, like Surrey have a WCE style of commuter train? I am not suggesting it should be high speed or high frequency, outside of the service to the ferry terminal.

I'll say what I said in the Heavy Rail thread: make heavy rail a separate agency, Victoria gives them maybe $18 million/year from TransLink's budget (the annual operating cost of the WCE) and then ignores them. Good luck getting anything from Ottawa. There are no extra billions in the budget for marginally better or expanded heavy rail service, and if there were, any impartial elected politician would spend it on something more important.

The same Surrey that spans 316 square km and wants to densify to midrises and highrises? Unless the WCE stops every 5-10 blocks and in the middle of Whalley, then no, SkyTrain is the right call.
Your train picks up no other outlying communities other than Tsawwassen, which itself wants to go straight to Richmond and beyond.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Hi Easter Bunny.

Crush load is not a sustainable service. It indicates the failing of the service.
I am not suggesting that this plan is done before the UBC extension is done. However, I am suggesting that expanding of WCE to include both ferry terminals be planed and worked on.

Well met. So exactly who are these 11,000+ new people who suddenly decide to travel to/from Ladner, Tsawwassen and the Island over the next forty years?

Thankfully, Delta will never see that 56k crush load ever. TransLink can plan, but they should most certainly feel absolutely no need to act on those plans; WCE makes even less logistical sense than SkyTrain to Tsawwassen.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Creating a separate transit authority for the WCE would not create new funding out of thin air. Anything given to the new authority would come directly out of Translink's budget, and without Translink's more profitable routes to offset the discrepancy between farebox revenues and operating expenses, the WCE would need MASSIVE handouts just to maintain current levels of service.

The three levels of government would also perform the same analysis that Migrant Coconut has done in this thread if WCE proposed new capital projects, and those governments would realize the expense is not worth the marginal political capital those projects might gain.

You could argue that a WCE-focused authority might have some additional lobbying power whereas Translink is not as focused on the WCE. This argument is probably correct, but begging Victoria and Ottawa can only get you so far, and I doubt it could get you to twenty, five, or even one billion dollars.

The greatest expansions of GO and EXO(REM) are due to the fact that what you suggest is actually correct. GO asks for money that is not part of any of the transit agencies that it goes through. The same for getting the REM built.

Whether it is viable or not is up to the bean counters, but as it is right now, with the attitude of MC and others, WCE will never be expanded. Good transit is not just about an extensive RT, but also a RER/CR system.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'll say what I said in the Heavy Rail thread: make heavy rail a separate agency, Victoria gives them maybe $18 million/year from TransLink's budget (the annual operating cost of the WCE) and then ignores them. Good luck getting anything from Ottawa. There are no extra billions in the budget for marginally better or expanded heavy rail service, and if there were, every single politician in Canada would spend it on something more important.

The same Surrey that spans 316 square km and wants to densify to midrises and highrises? Unless the WCE stops every 5-10 blocks and stops in the middle of Whalley, then no, SkyTrain is the right call.
Your train picks up no other outlying communities other than Tsawwassen, which itself wants to go straight to Richmond and beyond.

So, how does GO and EXO get federal money if there is no extra billions?

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Well met. So exactly who are these 11,000 new people who suddenly decide to travel to/from Ladner, Tsawwassen and the Island over the next forty years?

Thankfully, Delta will never see crush load ever.

Something should not be allowed to get to crush load before something better is in place.

You are also missing the point of a WCE style system.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, how does GO and EXO get federal money if there is no extra billions?

Because GO's ridership in its first year of operations is what the WCE gets annually today, and GO now has 28x the ridership of the WCE while EXO has 18x.

[cganuelas1995]

I think the WCE should be owned jointly by BC Transit and TransLink since they operate in both jurisdictions.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, how does GO and EXO get federal money if there is no extra billions?

Something should not be allowed to get to crush load before something better is in place.

You are also missing the point of a WCE style system.

Because it's Toronto and Montreal, which have X times as many passengers (and voters). And because $1 billion for 30k is a much better investment than $2-3 billion for 20k.

And yet it happened. Blame Christy Clark. If it happens again, it'll happen to the R1 or the R2, not Delta; might as well worry about crowding on a bus to Tofino.

Yes, to connect the Fraser Valley and the Island with Vancouver and each other... and when there's significantly more than maybe 7,000 people who want that kind of interconnectivity 365 days a year, we can look at this again. Until then, more buses.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I think the WCE should be owned jointly by BC Transit and TransLink since they operate in both jurisdictions.

Then you get a situation where both agencies say "It's YOUR job to fund them!" and neither one does.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Because GO's ridership in its first year of operations is what the WCE gets annually today, and GO now has 28x the ridership of the WCE while EXO has 18x.

In 25 years it expanded from the singular line to the 6 lines we see now, but shorter. More lines seems to equal more ridership.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I think the WCE should be owned jointly by BC Transit and TransLink since they operate in both jurisdictions.

So, by your logic, the GO should be also owned by TTC and the other transit operators? That would be a bad thing. They would be fighting for service improvements.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Because GO's ridership in its first year of operations is what the WCE gets annually today, and GO now has 28x the ridership of the WCE while EXO has 18x.

And here are two more reasons: population density and land area. Using the population centre data from the 2016 census, Vancouver is less dense than Montreal and Toronto (2,584, 2,720, and 3,028 people per square kilometer, respectively), but its land area is significantly smaller (876 square kilometers vs. 1,294 and 1,793). Less density encourages more driving and less transit ridership (which is why transit mode share steadily declines from 17% in Vancouver, to 15% in Burnaby, to 9% in Surrey, and to 4% in Langley City), and less land area reduces the need for long-distance commuter trains.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Because it's Toronto and Montreal, which have X times as many passengers (and voters). And because $1 billion for 30k is a much better investment than $2-3 billion for 20k.

And yet it happened. Blame Christy Clark. If it happens again, it'll happen to the R1 or the R2, not Delta; might as well worry about crowding on a bus to Tofino.

Yes, to connect the Fraser Valley and the Island with Vancouver and each other... and when there's significantly more than maybe 7,000 people who want that kind of interconnectivity 365 days a year, we can look at this again. Until then, more buses.

Then you get a situation where both agencies say "It's YOUR job to fund them!" and neither one does.

Hate to break it to you, but the 3 largest metro areas, in order are:

Toronto
Montreal
......

[cganuelas1995]

Then how about BC Transit owns and operates WCE? They could probably expand that brand to interregional transit connecting the different BC Transit systems together.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Hate to break it to you, but the 3 largest metro areas, in order are:

Toronto
Montreal
......

Toronto: 6,417,516
Montreal: 4,247,000
Vancouver: 2,463,431

And GO Transit covers the entire Golden Horseshoe - 9,245,438. Proportionately, we should get the exact level of service/funding per capita that we're getting right now - two SkyTrains at once means we're already ahead of the curve.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Whether it is viable or not is up to the bean counters, but as it is right now, with the attitude of MC and others, WCE will never be expanded. Good transit is not just about an extensive RT, but also a RER/CR system.

With your attitude, the whole forum becomes Karens and WCE still doesn't get expanded.

Did I say RER should never happen? No. What I've always said is that it won't happen; we need to get the biggest bang for our buck, and RER's at the tail end of that list, right between the Third Crossing and the Sunshine Coast bridge.