West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I disagree. Eventually, all of Gatineau's core transit lines are likely to have to pass on a single infrastructure corridor to get to and from Ottawa. A single approach - tunnel or surface - won't be enough in the long run. The loop more than doubles the capacity, service flexibility, and resiliency during interruptions.

The Portage/Wellington alignment is going ahead, and that the Alexandra Bridge is being replaced anyhow with transit-conversion in mind. What's left? A few hundred metres on Mackenzie, and another on rue Laurier. All of the most expensive/complex segments - the two bridges and Wellington - are already on the books and will get done, Loop or not.

It seems clear to me that the added benefit in long-term system benefits is well worth the marginal increased cost atop existing and necessary projects. I'll concede that the Loop doesn't need to be operational from day 1. But we'd be completely foolish to squander the opportunities in front of us to rough it in.

Ya, I would only classify it as a vanity project if it's implemented as part of the West Gatineau tram project. But if it's done as part of an eventual conversion of the rapibus corridor to tram, that's where it'll truly provide valuable capacity and flexibility benefits, as you mentioned.

Whether they go with the Wellington or Sparks option, I think it's a must that protections be put in place to enable an eventual extension to the Alexandra bridge. I do wonder how the approach for an East Gatineau tram would work, but I picture something like this (West Tram counter-clockwise, East Tram clockwise):

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

It may not be the ideal axis, but let's keep in mind two things:

1. The CBD isn't very wide. It's long, but only about 400m wide from Wellington to Laurier, after which it's principally residential. You could save at most 200 metres by having it run down Albert, which translates into a 2 minute walk. Is it a savings? sure. Is it significant? Not really.
   
2. Cross traffic. Wellington's position on the fringe of the CBD gives it the unique benefit of having next to no automobile cross-traffic to gum up transit movements.
   
   There's a grand total of five of them, one of which is only for the occasional minibus, and another four that can be easily consolidated as they all serve the same parking lot. None of these generate more than a trickle of traffic. In these conditions, you can have generous signal timing for trams, requiring them to only stop at stations.
   
   Compare that to an Albert option, which would have to contend with major cross-traffic at every intersection. You have little flexibility to time signals favourably, and a risk of box-blocking. Running time, capacity, and reliability suffer for it.
   

So any marginal gains in having a line 2 minutes closer to the southernmost reaches of downtown is likely more than eaten up by the limits imposed by cross-traffic.



They haven't said, but they'd probably either continue through Wellington at low speeds, or short-stop at Lyon (as was done until now with buses). With the loop, you could also have trams short-stop at Rideau street in the other direction. But honestly, you can count on one hand the number of protests and events that actually close down Wellington, and they're almost always on weekends or holidays. It's not the most pressing issue facing the Wellington alignment.

Totally agree. Although many focus on the occasional protest or event as a reason to discard Wellington, this option would actually see far less disruption by running nearly unimpeded by day-to-day traffic. Any other option south Sparks would likely result in frequent accidents involving cars and trucks.

Furthermore, as pointed out, the loop doubles the capacity of the system through downtown. It doesn't need to be built as part of the initial tram, but will be essential by the time the RapiBus is converted. The routing (but using Wellington instead of Sparks) and service pattern proposed by Hybrid would be quite effective in serving more of central Hull and balance the loads through the loop. The RapiBus between Montcalm and UQO could be maintained for a shuttle service between the two (or three with Trillium should it be extended) Lines.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Totally agree. Although many focus on the occasional protest or event as a reason to discard Wellington, this option would actually see far less disruption by running nearly unimpeded by day-to-day traffic. Any other option south Sparks would likely result in frequent accidents involving cars and trucks.

Furthermore, as pointed out, the loop doubles the capacity of the system through downtown. It doesn't need to be built as part of the initial tram, but will be essential by the time the RapiBus is converted. The routing (but using Wellington instead of Sparks) and service pattern proposed by Hybrid would be quite effective in serving more of central Hull and balance the loads through the loop. The RapiBus between Montcalm and UQO could be maintained for a shuttle service between the two (or three with Trillium should it be extended) Lines.

My preference for Sparks has more to do with better connections to O-train than anything else. Also, the surface option for Wellington is certainly workable, but I'm just not a fan of having a transit mall there and I also have concerns about how the loop alignment and ROW would work east of Elgin and along Mackenzie/Sussex. I think there's more potential risks there in terms of collisions with traffic and it seems like it would also be complicated to implement priority signaling, especially if/when frequencies reach 2-3 mins per direction.

[Sauvanto]

Look this is all very good, but do we actually need a tram in the first place? On the Gat side, what about just better/added bus lanes and priority traffic lights? For the Ottawa side, what about a bus-tunnel instead of tram? That way the infrastructure would be there if it needs to be converted to rail in the future

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Sauvanto

Look this is all very good, but do we actually need a tram in the first place? On the Gat side, what about just better/added bus lanes and priority traffic lights? For the Ottawa side, what about a bus-tunnel instead of tram? That way the infrastructure would be there if it needs to be converted to rail in the future

Just doing buses in gatineau would only be enough for 10-15 years. The city wants a longer term plan than just a band-aid.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Totally agree. Although many focus on the occasional protest or event as a reason to discard Wellington, this option would actually see far less disruption by running nearly unimpeded by day-to-day traffic. Any other option south Sparks would likely result in frequent accidents involving cars and trucks.

Depends on point of view. 99% of Ottawans have probably never set foot on an STO bus and will have little reason to get on an STO tram. For those getting to jobs in Hull the convenience of the curbside transfer to an OCT bus at Pimisi is unbeatable.

On the other hand a vast majority of Ottawa residents have attended Canada Day, the occasional parade or protest, and other special events. Wellington and Mackenzie are part of Ottawa’s flex living room. To impose on this space something most of Ottawa has very little use for is a hard sell. There’s also the screech and rumble of steel wheels on steel rails that adds a new dimension to everyday noise pollution.

[Floppa]

Originally Posted by Sauvanto

Look this is all very good, but do we actually need a tram in the first place? On the Gat side, what about just better/added bus lanes and priority traffic lights? For the Ottawa side, what about a bus-tunnel instead of tram? That way the infrastructure would be there if it needs to be converted to rail in the future

Trams have higher capacity than buses and are cheaper, especially considering the carbon tax on diesel. Sure we could go with electric buses, but if they're gonna replace the vehicles anyway might as well go the full nine yards and also have larger vehicles with improved energy efficiency.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Depends on point of view. 99% of Ottawans have probably never set foot on an STO bus and will have little reason to get on an STO tram. For those getting to jobs in Hull the convenience of the curbside transfer to an OCT bus at Pimisi is unbeatable.

On the other hand a vast majority of Ottawa residents have attended Canada Day, the occasional parade or protest, and other special events. Wellington and Mackenzie are part of Ottawa’s flex living room. To impose on this space something most of Ottawa has very little use for is a hard sell. There’s also the screech and rumble of steel wheels on steel rails that adds a new dimension to everyday noise pollution.

Are we talking about the same Wellington Street? The wording here gives the impression that it's currently a quiet park that hosts neighbourhood market fairs every weekend. As opposed to a noisy five-lane Merivale-chic road that hosts lumber trucks and idling tour buses during the day, and stunt drivers at night. How tripling the size of the sidewalks, removing motorized traffic, and planting a real street canopy constitutes a tragic downgrade in quality of space is certainly a take.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Are we talking about the same Wellington Street? The wording here gives the impression that it's currently a quiet park that hosts neighbourhood market fairs every weekend. As opposed to a noisy five-lane Merivale-chic road that hosts lumber trucks and idling tour buses during the day, and stunt drivers at night. How tripling the size of the sidewalks, removing motorized traffic, and planting a real street canopy constitutes a tragic downgrade in quality of space is certainly a take.

As someone who has only been on STO buses a handful of times and works off of Wellington, I would agree with this take.

My one and only concern would be transfers to OC Transpo, and how those can be managed. Two blocks is not an insurmountable obstacle, but they have to be made as easy as possible, which means some extra investment.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Sauvanto

Look this is all very good, but do we actually need a tram in the first place? On the Gat side, what about just better/added bus lanes and priority traffic lights? For the Ottawa side, what about a bus-tunnel instead of tram? That way the infrastructure would be there if it needs to be converted to rail in the future

First, there's the major capacity advantage of trams. It's been determined that the route cannot support enough buses to provide the required capacity.

Bus tunnels are far more expensive. Even if you only allow electric buses, reducing the need for a more robust ventilation systems (but removing an advantage of a bus tunnel by not allowing emergency vehicles), it still needs to be built higher and wider than a rail tunnel. See Seattle's former bus tunnel, now converted to rail.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

There’s also the screech and rumble of steel wheels on steel rails that adds a new dimension to everyday noise pollution.

Unless it screams like the tracks leading up to Bayview or Hurdman-uOttawa, I'm confident a tram will be far less noisy than dozens of diesel buses and hundreds of cars.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

As someone who has only been on STO buses a handful of times and works off of Wellington, I would agree with this take.

My one and only concern would be transfers to OC Transpo, and how those can be managed. Two blocks is not an insurmountable obstacle, but they have to be made as easy as possible, which means some extra investment.

At this time, the STO envisions a pedestrian tunnel between the two Lyon stations. If the tunnel connects directly into the concourse as a fare paid zone, transfers should be relatively seamless.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

At this time, the STO envisions a pedestrian tunnel between the two Lyon stations. If the tunnel connects directly into the concourse as a fare paid zone, transfers should be relatively seamless.

Thanks, didn't realize that they have gone that far. I'd be happy with a solution like that. They'd really only need something starting in the vicinity of Sparks.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

At this time, the STO envisions a pedestrian tunnel between the two Lyon stations. If the tunnel connects directly into the concourse as a fare paid zone, transfers should be relatively seamless.

Quite right. I'd imagine that Lyon would become the principal transfer point on account of being the first transfer possibility and the possibility of a direct weather-protected connection.

And even the other stations would be very easy transfers.

Parliament
Trams on Wellington would mean that O'Connor and Metcalfe would also become pedestrianized north of Queen (so as not to become cul de sacs). So a connection down O'Connor would involve a 120m down a street with no traffic or cross-traffic.

Rideau
Rideau is a bit trickier, but not unreasonable either. Assuming the loop places a station by the Château Laurier, then it would only be 100m to the entrance of Rideau Station. But it would involve crossing traffic both Sussex and Rideau Street. This could be reduced to a single crossing with the addition of a diagonal crosswalk and a scramble light cycle, which is something that should probably be done considering that it's one of the busiest pedestrian junctions in the entire city.
Rideau probably won't be a main transfer location now, but when the loop requires directional running, it might become a more significant transfer location for anyone coming over the Alexandra Bridge and headed east on Lines 1/3 (or vice-versa). In time, it might warrant a direct underground connection like Lyon.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

At this time, the STO envisions a pedestrian tunnel between the two Lyon stations. If the tunnel connects directly into the concourse as a fare paid zone, transfers should be relatively seamless.

As in a tunnel all the way to Wellington? Would be the first I hear of it. Got a link?

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Quite right. I'd imagine that Lyon would become the principal transfer point on account of being the first transfer possibility and the possibility of a direct weather-protected connection.

And even the other stations would be very easy transfers.

Parliament
Trams on Wellington would mean that O'Connor and Metcalfe would also become pedestrianized north of Queen (so as not to become cul de sacs). So a connection down O'Connor would involve a 120m down a street with no traffic or cross-traffic.

Still not ideal in my opinion. I would say, first and foremost, that transfers should include a fare paid zone connection. Having large crowds funneling through fare gates for transfers isn't ideal or practical. Also, I would hardly call a 150m walk outside and having to pass through fare gates a seamless or pleasant transfer, especially in the middle of winter.

I think it was made clear in the survey that both Gatineau and Ottawa residents prefer the Sparks option because of the better connectivity it would provide.

[Aylmer]

Then as I said in the part of my post you quoted... transfer at Lyon.

Mind you, it's worth pointing out that only 4 stations in Ottawa's entire LRT network are climate-controlled. So if brief exposure to winter weather is a deal-breaker, then your options are pretty limited anyways. And if 150m is too long a distance, then god help you if you have to walk the length of Line 1's 150m platforms. And if tapping your card is too great a struggle, then just hope that you don't have to catch any bus anywhere but the four stations with fare-paid zones.

The bar which some people expect the STO to meet is one which is literally met nowhere in Ottawa. The transfer from Lines 1 to 2 isn't climate-controlled - in fact literally no transfers in Ottawa are climate-controlled. And the busiest stations all already have transfer distances a good deal longer than 150m if only because the stations themselves span more than 150m. And some of the busiest junctions are not fare-paid zones (like Rideau). So I just don't take these to be credible critiques.

As presented, the STO-L1 connection is not only entirely adequate and reasonable, it will be one of the best in Ottawa's transit network.

[Acajack]

I'd also add that STO passengers (95% of them?) are already used to walking down north-south streets from Wellington where its bus stops currently are. Many of them go a lot further than where the Parliament and Lyon stations are located (Queen St. east-west axis). The CBD skyscraper core goes as far south as Gloucester St., so many STO passengers are walking a half-dozen blocks in the cold every winter day. STO's ridership is still pretty good so it doesn't have that much effect.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Unless it screams like the tracks leading up to Bayview or Hurdman-uOttawa, I'm confident a tram will be far less noisy than dozens of diesel buses and hundreds of cars.

Modern tramways like you have in many cities in France are pretty quiet.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Are we talking about the same Wellington Street? The wording here gives the impression that it's currently a quiet park that hosts neighbourhood market fairs every weekend. As opposed to a noisy five-lane Merivale-chic road that hosts lumber trucks and idling tour buses during the day, and stunt drivers at night. How tripling the size of the sidewalks, removing motorized traffic, and planting a real street canopy constitutes a tragic downgrade in quality of space is certainly a take.

This illustration was a classic!

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Then as I said in the part of my post you quoted... transfer at Lyon.

Mind you, it's worth pointing out that only 4 stations in Ottawa's entire LRT network are climate-controlled. So if brief exposure to winter weather is a deal-breaker, then your options are pretty limited anyways. And if 150m is too long a distance, then god help you if you have to walk the length of Line 1's 150m platforms. And if tapping your card is too great a struggle, then just hope that you don't have to catch any bus anywhere but the four stations with fare-paid zones.

Firstly, many of the points you made about Ottawa's system have been the source of major complaints against the design and configuration of stations, like the long walks to connecting buses at Hurdman and Tunney's, so it's not exactly an example to follow.

Secondly, I'm not saying it's a deal-breaker, I'm saying it's not ideal or practical, and we shouldn't be settling for "good enough". The point about tapping the card isn't the issue, it's large crowds all funneling to the same set of fare gates where things tend to slow down. That in itself isn't a huge deal but it just adds to the inconvenience when you consider there's also a 150m walk outside to get there.

This scenario you describe isn't so much about providing connectivity but rather relative proximity. It's like someone saying that good TOD is just about proximity to LRT, but it's not. It's just as much about the interface between the development and the LRT.

Originally Posted by Aylmer

The bar which some people expect the STO to meet is one which is literally met nowhere in Ottawa. The transfer from Lines 1 to 2 isn't climate-controlled - in fact literally no transfers in Ottawa are climate-controlled. And the busiest stations all already have transfer distances a good deal longer than 150m if only because the stations themselves span more than 150m. And some of the busiest junctions are not fare-paid zones (like Rideau). So I just don't take these to be credible critiques.

That bar is one of two options deemed acceptable by the STO for consideration, and was also the option their consultant recommended, so I don't why your implying that myself and others are the ones who set the bar unreasonably high.

These stations would also immediately become the busiest transfer stations in the whole network, so maybe they should be held to a higher standard than other transfer stations?

[roger1818]

While I prefer the Spark St. tunnel option for easier transfer, I do admit that the vast majority of Gatineau residents will not be transferring to the O-Train. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if more Ottawa residents make transfer than Gatineau residents.