Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You're correct at least about the American woman. She does not appear in the video. The participants are all just reacting to her comments which were (mostly) sympathetic to the Québécois view of things. I linked to her piece in another post.

None of the CTV panelists were actually sympathetic to the Québécois view of things. (Though a few tried to pretend they were before lashing out.)

I'm not really defending the panelists, FYI.

However, I wouldn't have expected the Social's panelists to parrot anything but the same old claptrap from the days of yore. Why? Because The Social's audience is mostly aging out elderly Anglo folks who just want to hear only what they agree with.

It's low information programming (I consider it vapid talking head crap and it assails me to watch it) designed to cater to a particular audience. It's about as much on the national pulse and a forum for real debate as my grandmother is on pop trends.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm not really defending the panelists, FYI.

.

No worries. I know you well enough to realize that's not what you were doing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

However, I wouldn't have expected the Social's panelists to parrot anything but the same old claptrap from the days of yore. Why? Because The Social's audience is mostly aging out elderly Anglo folks who just want to hear only what they agree with.

It's low information programming (I consider it vapid talking head crap and it assails me to watch it) designed to cater to a particular audience. It's about as much on the national pulse and a forum for real debate as my grandmother is on pop trends.

No doubt true, but in 2021 (that year again!) it's not really a sufficient justification to say "nobody listens to that crap anyway".

Just a couple of months ago Réjean Tremblay wrote a rather ugly and stupid column about Chinese origin hockey players and while everyone in Quebec considers him an old curmudgeon past his due date (and we informed you guys of that), there was still a considerable amount of outrage on SSP. Obviously it registered with some on here and elsewhere that somehow he was representing the views of Quebec society. Or an imposing segment of it at least.

As such, while I don't think your assessment of The Social is out whack, the views on Quebec and French stated on that panel are out there and fairly prevalent in the ROC.

It's also very telling that no one involved in the show (in 2021) seemed to have thought it was a bad idea to talk about the French language (and its future) and the moral character of Québécois francophones, without actually having a single Québécois francophone as part of the discussion.

[MonctonRad]

New federal centre will focus on francophone immigration in southeastern N.B.
Centre will employ between 30 and 40 federal employees
CBC News · Posted: Aug 13, 2021 3:18 PM AT | Last Updated: August 13
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/new-brunswick-francophone-immigration-centre-1.6140187

Francophone immigrants to New Brunswick will soon have a dedicated federal immigration and settlement centre in the Moncton and Dieppe area.

The federal government will spend $12.9 million over four years to create a Centre for Innovation on Francophone Immigration and Economic Prosperity, two New Brunswick MPs announced Friday.

The centre will provide "quality settlement services by and for francophones," said Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Dominic LeBlanc, the MP for Beausejour

I think in the interests of equity and fairness, that the federal government should set up a similar immigration centre in Montreal dedicated to "quality settlement services by and for anglophones." Given the size of Montreal, I think perhaps 300-400 anglophone federal employees should be sufficient to staff this needed resource for the beleaguered and distressed anglophone community in greater Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

New federal centre will focus on francophone immigration in southeastern N.B.
Centre will employ between 30 and 40 federal employees
CBC News · Posted: Aug 13, 2021 3:18 PM AT | Last Updated: August 13
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/new-brunswick-francophone-immigration-centre-1.6140187



I think in the interests of equity and fairness, that the federal government should set up a similar immigration centre in Montreal dedicated to "quality settlement services by and for anglophones." Given the size of Montreal, I think perhaps 300-400 anglophone federal employees should be sufficient to staff this needed resource for the beleaguered and distressed anglophone community in greater Montreal.

I suppose. Though close to 50% of immigrants in the Montreal area already integrate with the anglophone community, when they only make up about 17% of the population... Quebec-wide figures are also widely disproportionately in favour of English.

Not sure I'd call them distressed, as they are getting quite a bit of new blood.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

New federal centre will focus on francophone immigration in southeastern N.B.
Centre will employ between 30 and 40 federal employees
CBC News · Posted: Aug 13, 2021 3:18 PM AT | Last Updated: August 13
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/new-brunswick-francophone-immigration-centre-1.6140187

Can someone say boondoggle?

Let's say a Federal employee costs $100,000 on average, including things like benefits and the cost of office space/office materials. So, that's a $3 million annual expenditure.

Will Francophone immigrants to the Moncton area bring in $3 million in annual taxable revenue to the Federal government?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Can someone say boondoggle?

Let's say a Federal employee costs $100,000 on average, including things like benefits and the cost of office space/office materials. So, that's a $3 million annual expenditure.

Will Francophone immigrants to the Moncton area bring in $3 million in annual taxable revenue to the Federal government?

That's one way to frame it, though in terms of federal tax revenue (assuming that's the only criterion, which I don't think is the case) we're only really talking about in the vicinity of 100 immigrants settling in Moncton (or NB) permanently.

And even if they don't stay in NB, there are excellent odds that they'll at least remain in Canada (and therefore still be Canadian taxpayers) and end up in Quebec or some other province.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No doubt true, but in 2021 (that year again!) it's not really a sufficient justification to say "nobody listens to that crap anyway".

Just a couple of months ago Réjean Tremblay wrote a rather ugly and stupid column about Chinese origin hockey players and while everyone in Quebec considers him an old curmudgeon past his due date (and we informed you guys of that), there was still a considerable amount of outrage on SSP. Obviously it registered with some on here and elsewhere that somehow he was representing the views of Quebec society. Or an imposing segment of it at least.

As such, while I don't think your assessment of The Social is out whack, the views on Quebec and French stated on that panel are out there and fairly prevalent in the ROC.

It's also very telling that no one involved in the show (in 2021) seemed to have thought it was a bad idea to talk about the French language (and its future) and the moral character of Québécois francophones, without actually having a single Québécois francophone as part of the discussion.

Oh yeah, I don't pretend for a moment that it was dumb on behalf of CTV. I'm not 100% sure if that was a calculated thing or not, though. Like certain other sore topics that don't need rehashing (and admittedly CTV's management would very much be more in tune with today) the concept of open debate sometimes leads to places the producers didn't intend. I don't think CTV was trying to bait the bear - The Social's about bland pablum TV, not actively stirring the shit-pot.

Nor do I think Canada's all kumbaya about the English/French thing in 2021. About the best thing I could say is that it's not an active irritant to national debate.

I also take with a grain of salt the concept that one person speaks for a whole culture too. Old kooks like Rex Murphy and Don Cherry soldiered on spouting long after they should have exited the stage. My read is the common thread seems to be age on both sides. They're rehashing their greatest hits for the old crowd, not unlike the Rolling Stones playing Satisfaction like it's 1965 again.

My general impression (from one side) is that - if not completely settled - there is a distinct disinterest among anyone under the age of 50 to really have that old debate. Quebec gets to be Quebec and aside from the occasional barb, it'll be disinterest that dominates.

You've said before that Canada's going to be like a married couple who are people that just happen to reside in the same house after years of living together. It's probably right.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's one way to frame it, though in terms of federal tax revenue (assuming that's the only criterion, which I don't think is the case) we're only really talking about in the vicinity of 100 immigrants settling in Moncton (or NB) permanently.

And even if they don't stay in NB, there are excellent odds that they'll at least remain in Canada (and therefore still be Canadian taxpayers) and end up in Quebec or some other province.

That would be 100 francophone immigrants settling in Moncton every year, and we would have to determine that it was primarily because of the work of those 30 Federal employees that they decided to come to Canada and specifically settle in Moncton. $30k/immigrant in annnual tax receipts remitted to the Feds through income tax and GST is probably an overly generous estimate, too. You might pay that if you earn about $100,000 in the private sector, but if you're a TFW from Cameroon working at the Tim Horton's in Shediac, not so much.

If somebody lands in Moncton temporarily before moving to Quebec, I wouldn't count that, either. Francophone immigrants don't really need any enticements to move to Quebec, and the purpose of that Federal office is ostensibly to use immigrants to prop up the demographics of the francophone community in SE NB.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Oh yeah, I don't pretend for a moment that it was dumb on behalf of CTV. I'm not 100% sure if that was a calculated thing or not, though. Like certain other sore topics that don't need rehashing (and admittedly CTV's management would very much be more in tune with today) the concept of open debate sometimes leads to places the producers didn't intend. I don't think CTV was trying to bait the bear - The Social's about bland pablum TV, not actively stirring the shit-pot.
.

I'd definitely agree that it's not deliberate.

(Though it's still a bit telling that in a national TV network setting in Toronto people think it's acceptable or no big deal to talk smack about Québécois francophones in abstentia. That's definitely not the case for a host of other groups or topics today.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

That would be 100 francophone immigrants settling in Moncton every year, and we would have to determine that it was primarily because of the work of those 30 Federal employees that they decided to come to Canada and specifically settle in Moncton. $30k/immigrant in annnual tax receipts remitted to the Feds through income tax and GST is probably an overly generous estimate, too. You might pay that if you earn about $100,000 in the private sector, but if you're a TFW from Cameroon working at the Tim Horton's in Shediac, not so much.

If somebody lands in Moncton temporarily before moving to Quebec, I wouldn't count that, either. Francophone immigrants don't really need any enticements to move to Quebec, and the purpose of that Federal office is ostensibly to use immigrants to prop up the demographics of the francophone community in SE NB.

Which might also be a goal - perhaps even the main one. Given the country's history.

Also, many (perhaps most) government programs don't operate on the cost-recovery principle.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Can someone say boondoggle?

Let's say a Federal employee costs $100,000 on average, including things like benefits and the cost of office space/office materials. So, that's a $3 million annual expenditure.

Will Francophone immigrants to the Moncton area bring in $3 million in annual taxable revenue to the Federal government?

Quite obvious the goal of this program isn't to make money or break even or even to generate economic activity. The government has already formally acknowledged that the French language is on the decline in Canada, and especially in NB.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Which might also be a goal - perhaps even the main one. Given the country's history.

Also, many (perhaps most) government programs don't operate on the cost-recovery principle.

If that's the goal, then give every francophone immigrant who's on the fence about Moncton $10,000 and let them know they'll get another $20,000 in 5 years' time if they agree to remain in Southeastern NB. That's much cheaper to administer and probably much more effective.

[Acajack]

Francophone immigrants are actually a pretty good investment for Canada, as I believe they are more likely to remain in the country than those oriented towards English - the allure of the US isn't as strong.

In Quebec the retention rates are really, really good. Except for people from France, where they are quite a bit lower - they do have a pretty nice first world country to move back to.

But all other groups have a sky-high retention rate.

There is a bit of movement between provinces too, but by and large the vast vast majority remain in Canada.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If that's the goal, then give every francophone immigrant who's on the fence about Moncton $10,000 and let them know they'll get another $20,000 in 5 years' time if they agree to remain in Southeastern NB. That's much cheaper to administer and probably much more effective.

Perhaps the intent of this initiative is geared more towards providing high quality six figure income federal jobs to francophone Acadians in the southeast rather than to actually stimulating francophone immigration (although, if this happens, it would be a bonus).

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd definitely agree that it's not deliberate.

(Though it's still a bit telling that in a national TV network setting in Toronto people think it's acceptable or no big deal to talk smack about Québécois francophones in abstentia. That's definitely not the case for a host of other groups or topics today.)

The Times They Are A-Changin'....

[someone123]

Originally Posted by thewave46

The Times They Are A-Changin'....

English speaking Canadians trash talking Francophones in person or making sweeping cultural generalizations in national media (for example they won't vote NDP because of Jagmeet Singh's turban) is as old as the hills. What has changed is that they wouldn't feel comfortable commenting on some other groups anymore without representation. Probably mostly because we import these notions from the US and the US doesn't have a comparable minority.

Canadians often say Francophones are different but this is wrong. They are a historic underclass minority like many others around the world. Acadians definitely fit that pattern. 2 generations ago they were heavily discriminated against and had lower economic prospects. Canadians are now sensitive about judging African-American English, but they still have no problem making fun of Acadian or Quebec French or what they perceive as funny or less sophisticated accents and dialects in Eastern Canada in general.

The blind spot reminds me a bit of Europeans who like to play up the notion of anti-black discrimination in the US but then rant about Roma (you don't understand, we complain because of objective reasons X, Y, Z while every other country is animated by irrational racism).

[someone123]

By the way this does not mean that I think there can't be boondoggles designed to unfairly generate employment for Francophones in Canada, and I think we should be able to discuss it without people getting indignant.

But imagine the comparative difference in pushback if you wanted to question the value of say cultural studies professorships that are effectively reserved for members of certain groups.

Likewise there was that Ontario Francophone university issue and many people said that we shouldn't be paying for schools for every minority out there, and that basically it comes down to demographics and demand. Okay. How does this relate to indigenous issues in Ontario? Would the same people complaining about Francophones getting too much get in front of the cameras to complain about federal money spent on indigenous language instruction? I'm not saying it's good or bad (I'd probably fund both to some degree), but if you are pro indigenous language instruction in Canada but then you switch gears when French comes up you are not really arguing for an approach based purely on demographics.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by someone123

English speaking Canadians trash talking Francophones in person or making sweeping cultural generalizations in national media (for example they won't vote NDP because of Jagmeet Singh's turban) is as old as the hills. What has changed is that they wouldn't feel comfortable commenting on some other groups anymore without representation. Probably mostly because we import these notions from the US and the US doesn't have a comparable minority.

Canadians often say Francophones are different but this is wrong. They are a historic underclass minority like many others around the world. Acadians definitely fit that pattern. 2 generations ago they were heavily discriminated against and had lower economic prospects. Canadians are now sensitive about judging African-American English, but they still have no problem making fun of Acadian or Quebec French or what they perceive as funny or less sophisticated accents and dialects in Eastern Canada in general.

The blind spot reminds me a bit of Europeans who like to play up the notion of anti-black discrimination in the US but then rant about Roma (you don't understand, we complain because of objective reasons X, Y, Z while every other country is animated by irrational racism).

Sure.

My larger point being: Will a newer Canadian really feel that particular conflict in their bones like old-stock Canadians? Sure, Joe from Brockville might be the same old-school Canadian and harbour the same opinion, but is Joe the face of future Canada? Demographics say no. Future Canada lies in the suburbs of Markham, Brampton and Surrey. Their experience will be different than Joe's.

In a certain sense I think that's a good thing. I'd say that this is an era where Canada actually becomes more multicultural and it helps mitigate the old animosities that majority-single minority counties have. Francophones will simply become a facet of life in this country, not considered a noisy minority demanding "special treatment" (i.e. the same treatment as Anglophones).

Which is why The Social is about as key to the national pulse and future as grandma is.
One: they might not even have a pulse at all
Two: they're reflective of the past - CTV is old media and The Social doubly so - the bobbleheads on a national TV network morning show. Could one think of a more irrelevant genre?

Like the Rolling Stones who stopped putting out relevant music somewhere about 1980, they still exist and tour. However, they're as relevant to 20-somethings as The Social is. Ol' Joe likes his classic rock in Brockville though.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by thewave46

My larger point being: Will a newer Canadian really feel that particular conflict in their bones like old-stock Canadians? Sure, Joe from Brockville might be the same old-school Canadian and harbour the same opinion, but is Joe the face of future Canada? Demographics say no. Future Canada lies in the suburbs of Markham, Brampton and Surrey. Their experience will be different than Joe's.

It's not really just up to how people in Markham or Brampton or Surrey feel. There are structural political factors in Canada like the Charter and the existence of Quebec.

I understand what you are saying and some aspects of this debate do feel antique. Most Canadians will not have visceral feelings about the referendum era for example. But I think if anything people overrate how much we're headed into a brave new world and the old stuff will cease to matter. The Quebec separatism issue or immigration rates could change at any time.