Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If they do get the license with an Ottawa-PET Airport route, it would bode well for VIA.

Why do you say that?

[roger1818]

Why does the Commission des Transports du Québec (CTQ) have full authority over the Montreal-Ottawa route when 60% of the route (when using the 417) is in Ontario? Is it because deregulation in Ontario has resulted in the Ontario government washing their hands of it? Seems to me the CTQ would look favorably on an Gatineau-Montreal route on the 148 and wouldn't care if anyone replaces the south shore local route on Hwy 17 (it didn't have many stops in Quebec).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Why do you say that?

If buses only go as far as Trudeau airport, many might opt to pay a little extra for the direct to Downtown Montreal VIA option.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why does the Commission des Transports du Québec (CTQ) have full authority over the Montreal-Ottawa route when 60% of the route (when using the 417) is in Ontario? Is it because deregulation in Ontario has resulted in the Ontario government washing their hands of it? Seems to me the CTQ would look favorably on an Gatineau-Montreal route on the 148 and wouldn't care if anyone replaces the south shore local route on Hwy 17 (it didn't have many stops in Quebec).

I agree. IMO, this should be Transport Canada's jurisdiction.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If buses only go as far as Trudeau airport, many might opt to pay a little extra for the direct to Downtown Montreal VIA option.

Right, I see.

[Truenorth00]

• Video Link

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO. This is exactly the sort of problems I worry about if Ottawa builds a regional commuter system. Should be noted some of the issues raised in the video already apply to the O-Train and Transitway networks.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is exactly the sort of problems I worry about if Ottawa builds a regional commuter system. Should be noted some of the issues raised in the video already apply to the O-Train and Transitway networks.

I was going to say, Ottawa is already building a regional commuter system with O-Train.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

• Video Link

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO. This is exactly the sort of problems I worry about if Ottawa builds a regional commuter system. Should be noted some of the issues raised in the video already apply to the O-Train and Transitway networks.

GO Transit was built for the 1960s. This is why a transition to GO RER is so important as well as fare integration, so that GO can become less car dependent. A regional transit network in Ottawa does not have to go that route, but it is ever so tempting. We are building Park n Ride lots all over the place as a way to avoid providing adequate neighbourhood transit, but to some degree they have value to promote transit use into the denser parts of the city. It is much preferable to focus transit design on reducing car dependency.

Transit is not a big player in promoting sprawl. Highways lead sprawl. Transit almost always follows sprawl much later and helps to offer an alternative to already congested roads. In fact, when transit follows sprawl so much later, we are doomed to a very high degree of car dependency, which means more roads are needed, and this leads to more sprawl. At least transit can move people more efficiently.

A city without a good transit system is doomed to be choked with traffic, so denying a proper transit system as a way to avoid sprawl is self defeating. There are many cities in the United States that demonstrate the futility of not offering a good transit system.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I was going to say, Ottawa is already building a regional commuter system with O-Train.

What Ottawa is building is essentially an RER, the same type of rail network model that Calgary and Edmonton have, and perhaps even Vancouver. Not surprising since car domination came before the urban expansion of these cities.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

• Video Link

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO. This is exactly the sort of problems I worry about if Ottawa builds a regional commuter system. Should be noted some of the issues raised in the video already apply to the O-Train and Transitway networks.

Interesting points indeed.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

• Video Link

I've complained for years that GO Transit substantially facilitates sprawl. People look at me like I'm crazy. Finally a video that explains the downsides of GO. This is exactly the sort of problems I worry about if Ottawa builds a regional commuter system. Should be noted some of the issues raised in the video already apply to the O-Train and Transitway networks.

He certainly has some good points. I will note that he isn't correct at 3:01, and GO transit did not create commuter rail lines. They took over operations of the commuter rail lines operated by CN and CP. I don't think this was because they thought they couldn't build enough roads, but because they saw a social benefit to having commuter rail service.

He doesn't get down to the root cause of the problem with GO Transit, and that is that each city has its own separate transit agency, with little to no co-ordination between them. According to this website, the GTHA has the following nine, independent transit agencies:

1. Brampton Transit
2. Burlington Transit
3. Durham Region Transit
4. GO Transit
5. Hamilton Street Railway
6. Mississauga Transit
7. Oakville Transit
8. Toronto Transit Commission
9. York Region Transit and VIVA

As I said in the Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service thread, in BC there are only 2 transit agencies for the entire province (Translink for all the cities in Greater Vancouver and BC Transit for the rest of the province). That way instead of creating silos of transit responsibility, the agency looks at the bigger picture.

If all 9 of those agencies in the GTHA could be amalgamated into one agency, it would be much easier to have fare integration and service that from anywhere, to anywhere more easily.

[Williamoforange]

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-eyes-74...oned-rail-corridor-in-west-end-1.5600672

As for Go Rail its a subsidy to the a exurban car centered lifestyle, and all of the transit agencies being centrally run would not have changed the growth patterns of SFH suburbs. (see greater Victoria area)

If Ottawa plans to implement a rail system to its exurbs, then the exurbs are going to have to become Urban cities/towns. So...Little to No station parking, transit inside the towns, and zoning that allows more then just SFH.

And currently as evidenced by Kemptville (and from growing up out there) that is not what people who choose to live out there want, they want Go rail as it is a car centric commuter system.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-eyes-74...oned-rail-corridor-in-west-end-1.5600672

As for Go Rail its a subsidy to the a exurban car centered lifestyle, and all of the transit agencies being centrally run would not have changed the growth patterns of SFH suburbs. (see greater Victoria area)

If Ottawa plans to implement a rail system to its exurbs, then the exurbs are going to have to become Urban cities/towns. So...Little to No station parking, transit inside the towns, and zoning that allows more then just SFH.

And currently as evidenced by Kemptville (and from growing up out there) that is not what people who choose to live out there want, they want Go rail as it is a car centric commuter system.

A regional transit system needs to start with buses. Yes, the major towns also need to have some local service. This could be accomplished with some sort of loop that covers a decent portion of the town and connected to the route going to Ottawa. I believe that Casselman already has some sort of local transit service. If possible, this should be done without a transfer in the various towns to encourage ridership until such time that rail is feasible.

As far as no parking for regional rail (and even bus transit) in satellite towns, that will never work. Since potential riders will be quite dispersed, to maximize ridership means some parking. The mistake that GO Transit made, is that it was designed only for commuting and there was little integration with local transit. This meant the vast majority could only drive to the station.

We could do better, but park n ride can't be fully avoided. Just look at our VIA rail stations. They are both quite dependent on park n ride. I likely wouldn't use VIA without parking available. I live too far from either station and transit with luggage is not attractive when transfers are necessary. I have no objections to encouraging higher density development adjacent to rail stations but little parking will be counterproductive. Regional transit needs to be as simple to use as possible and attractive to those who are accustomed to driving.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

What Ottawa is building is essentially an RER, the same type of rail network model that Calgary and Edmonton have, and perhaps even Vancouver. Not surprising since car domination came before the urban expansion of these cities.

RER has limited stops. The Ottawa plan has enormous numbers of stops.

[Truenorth00]

Typical stop spacing for a metro is about 1-2 km. Typical stop spacing for a commuter rail system is 3-5 km. Regional rail varies widely but stops are usually central to a whole town/suburb/subdivision. So usually well over 5 km. The other big issue is that lower frequency and lack of feeder services usually means that commuter services have huge lots.

The post Stage 2 O-Train is closer to a metro than regional or commuter rail. But at its edges, it certainly has lots of elements of commuter rail, notably the large lots.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-eyes-74...oned-rail-corridor-in-west-end-1.5600672

We have discussed the city purchasing the abandoned portion of the Beachburg Sub west before. Personally I can't imagine it being used for any type of commuter rail.

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

As for Go Rail its a subsidy to the a exurban car centered lifestyle, and all of the transit agencies being centrally run would not have changed the growth patterns of SFH suburbs. (see greater Victoria area)

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am not convinced. While park and rides can't be eliminated completely (it is impractical to provide direct transit access to everyone 24/7), having integrated bus service to the park and ride will make it easier for people to use transit from their home.

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

If Ottawa plans to implement a rail system to its exurbs, then the exurbs are going to have to become Urban cities/towns. So...Little to No station parking, transit inside the towns, and zoning that allows more then just SFH.

There are way too many roadblocks for Ottawa to implement a rail system to its exurbs (not having a train station downtown is probably the biggest one, but not having tracks to the largest exurbs doesn't help either).

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

And currently as evidenced by Kemptville (and from growing up out there) that is not what people who choose to live out there want, they want Go rail as it is a car centric commuter system.

What percentage of the people you knew in Kemptville commuted to Ottawa? What transit options options are there in Kemptville for you to base you opinion on?

[mxg308]

Originally Posted by roger1818

We have discussed the city purchasing the abandoned portion of the Beachburg Sub west before. Personally I can't imagine it being used for any type of commuter rail.

While I agree with you nothing will probably happen. I like the idea of using the Renfrew Sub from near Innovation P&R to the Via Rail station as a possible route. Not sure if it is doable but maybe going east you could use what is left of the small M&O sub and maybe link it with the power lines ROW and have in end at Tenth Line in Orleans or Chapel Hill P&R?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by mxg308

While I agree with you nothing will probably happen. I like the idea of using the Renfrew Sub from near Innovation P&R to the Via Rail station as a possible route.

The abandoned portion of the Beachburgh Sub in question is north/west of the junction with the Renfrew Sub, thus wouldn’t be useful for your suggested route. The active portion of the Beachburgh Sub (between the Renfrew Sub and Federal) isn’t part of this deal.

A much more likely option is that it will be used as a branch of the Watts Creek Pathway out to Herzberg/Terry Fox and South March. I also wouldn’t be surprised if they tear down the bridge over Carling to allow it to be widened. It is very dangerous to cycle under. Even before they put up the no passing bicycle signs, I would take the lane to ensure no one tries to pass me (which some drivers didn’t like).

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by roger1818

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am not convinced. While park and rides can't be eliminated completely (it is impractical to provide direct transit access to everyone 24/7), having integrated bus service to the park and ride will make it easier for people to use transit from their home.

There are way too many roadblocks for Ottawa to implement a rail system to its exurbs (not having a train station downtown is probably the biggest one, but not having tracks to the largest exurbs doesn't help either).

What percentage of the people you knew in Kemptville commuted to Ottawa? What transit options options are there in Kemptville for you to base you opinion on?

1) Yes, and I don't see how all transportation agencies in the GTA being run by one org would have changed the growth preference or standard growth patterns of the time. GO is a child of the era of suburban expansion.

2) Yet, this isn't a fantasy thread for the rail portion, Moose rail is still trucking along, and Ottawa had a mayoral candidate that is backed by a sitting councilor literally propose this and get 22% of the vote...

3) My comment was on the growth patterns of the North grenville & North Dundas area, and the development in the area show the preference to SFH even ones not serviced by town water & sewer, even when there are SFH options in Ottawa of similar price just with a smaller home & yard. As for people who commute into Ottawa from out there, there are numbers out there for it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-worst-commute-is-yours-worse-1.5017499

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

1) Yes, and I don't see how all transportation agencies in the GTA being run by one org would have changed the growth preference or standard growth patterns of the time. GO is a child of the era of suburban expansion.

For one, it would be much easier to have fare integration with the local transit agencies, meaning you wouldn't have to pay extra to take the bus to the GO station (or three times if you need to use transit at your destination). Integrated transit would also do a better job of looking into end to end solutions to ensure better transit to/from the GO stations, rather than considering the suburban station the end point.

2) Yet, this isn't a fantasy thread for the rail portion, Moose rail is still trucking along, and Ottawa had a mayoral candidate that is backed by a sitting councilor literally propose this and get 22% of the vote...

Unfortunately Moose isn't a trucking company.

In all seriousness, Moose is vaporware. It only still exists because a fool and their money are easily separated. The fact that they can only get foreign investors that don't know anything about Canada should tell you something.

North Dundas area, and the development in the area show the preference to SFH even ones not serviced by town water & sewer, even when there are SFH options in Ottawa of similar price just with a smaller home & yard.

The fact that people are buying homes in North Dundas isn't proof that they are commuting to Ottawa. For those who do, we don't even know their situations. For example, a former neighbour of mine moved to Kemptville because his job got relocated to Cornwall and she works at DND Carling (or was before COVID), so they wanted something in the middle.

As for people who commute into Ottawa from out there, there are numbers out there for it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-worst-commute-is-yours-worse-1.5017499

The only relevant thing in that article is when it talks about a woman and her husband who "both regularly drive into Ottawa from Kemptville." Are you trying to say they are the only two people who make that commute?

[eltodesukane]

"Greyhound announced that it is bringing back routes to Canada with stops in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver starting on Nov. 8." (but not Ottawa)
https://www.blogto.com/travel/2021/10/gr...ice-buses-leaving-toronto-united-states/