Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

We don't have nearly enough of a "region" to justify it. I'd concentrate on better integrating OCTranspo and STO routes and payments, and improving transit service in Ottawa's deserts and neglected communities before worrying too much about Arnprior or Kemptville.

You may be right about priorities but at some point there needs to be a more regional view of transit. Private providers are not going to do this for us. Ottawa is at least 4 times the size of Victoria, and they have successfully set up a regional transit system. Ottawa has a bigger "region" than Victoria with several surrounding towns of 5,000 to 10,000 or more. The bus going to Sooke was a double-decker and there were additional local bus routes for a town of just 13,000 about an hour from the city. In other words, comparable places like Arnprior, Carleton Place, Rockland, Kemptville, Casselman/Embrun/Russell and even places inside the city like Greely and Manotick. Has Ottawa become a 'can't do' city? It seems so.

[JayBuoy]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You may be right about priorities but at some point there needs to be a more regional view of transit. Private providers are not going to do this for us. Ottawa is at least 4 times the size of Victoria, and they have successfully set up a regional transit system. Ottawa has a bigger "region" than Victoria with several surrounding towns of 5,000 to 10,000 or more. The bus going to Sooke was a double-decker and there were additional local bus routes for a town of just 13,000 about an hour from the city. In other words, comparable places like Arnprior, Carleton Place, Rockland, Kemptville, Casselman/Embrun/Russell and even places inside the city like Greely and Manotick. Has Ottawa become a 'can't do' city? It seems so.

Ottawa suffers from a leadership that is diametrically opposed to improving transit.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You may be right about priorities but at some point there needs to be a more regional view of transit. Private providers are not going to do this for us. Ottawa is at least 4 times the size of Victoria, and they have successfully set up a regional transit system. Ottawa has a bigger "region" than Victoria with several surrounding towns of 5,000 to 10,000 or more. The bus going to Sooke was a double-decker and there were additional local bus routes for a town of just 13,000 about an hour from the city. In other words, comparable places like Arnprior, Carleton Place, Rockland, Kemptville, Casselman/Embrun/Russell and even places inside the city like Greely and Manotick. Has Ottawa become a 'can't do' city? It seems so.

When services need subsidies the question becomes who will pay for it. As an Ottawa ratepayer I don't want to subsidize service to/from " Arnprior, Carleton Place, Rockland, Kemptville, Casselman/Embrun/Russell". Either they pay for it. Or the province can do it, a la GO Transit.

Places inside the city like Greely and Manotick, I can support providing transit to those places.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

When services need subsidies the question becomes who will pay for it. As an Ottawa ratepayer I don't want to subsidize service to/from " Arnprior, Carleton Place, Rockland, Kemptville, Casselman/Embrun/Russell". Either they pay for it. Or the province can do it, a la GO Transit.

Places inside the city like Greely and Manotick, I can support providing transit to those places.

Obviously, transit beyond the city boundaries should not be paid by the city. There are some benefits to the city by keeping commuters from regional towns off city roads. I agree a regional transit system needs to be run by an organization like Go Transit.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Obviously, transit beyond the city boundaries should not be paid by the city. There are some benefits to the city by keeping commuters from regional towns off city roads.

Rockland aside, these places are relatively small, distant and distributed enough that their impact on urban traffic is minimal. Exurb to suburb commutes are more likely (Arnprior to Kanata or Rockland to Orleans) than commutes to more central areas. Combine that diffuse commuter pattern with a lack of numbers (a town like Arnprior may produce just a few hundred commuters to Ottawa) and the business case for substantial regional service looks challenging. Though, maybe there's a case for these towns to simply run some kind of hourly coach bus service to the nearest O-Train terminus post Stage 2.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I agree a regional transit system needs to be run by an organization like Go Transit.

Not necessarily. GO functions are a complete overlay in the GTA, letting you get from Kitchener to Hamilton or Oshawa without ever paying another fare. Such a system would have no business case in Ottawa.

What these towns need is to connect to Ottawa. I think the province can give them capital for buses. And OC Transpo should give them bus bays at stations. Communities along the 174 can operate out of Trim. Communities along the 417 can operate out of St-Laurent for the Southeast and Moodie for the West. Communities along the 416 can operate out of Baseline.

[lrt's friend]

There needs to be fare integration and fare zones regionally. This is the difficult discussion that Toronto is now going through. It has to happen there to make their system more attractive to a broader set of potential users and to eliminate the unfairness of moving between transit systems. GO RER needs fare integration to allow Toronto residents to make use of the GO network without a fare penalty. But longer distance riders still need to pay more. Vancouver already has this. Fare and system integration with fare zones. BC Translink means transit is integrated everywhere.

As is the case with urban transit, a regional system in a post-covid world needs to be more than about commuting. Other cities and regions are doing different things but we are stuck in a mindset as if we are still a small city. A single fare zone for the entire city is limiting revenue and as the city continues to expand, operating costs continue to increase while revenue remains flat. This can't continue forever, and limits us as far as delivering better service. This is exactly the problem in many US cities where low fares make it a welfare service that is too expensive to expand beyond a minimal level of service. We are slowly heading in this direction and the current transit traumas are pushing ridership and revenue down creating a downward spiral that will be hard to stop without some bold measures.

If you want to travel from Stittsville to downtown, you should pay more than if you just want to go from Lansdowne to downtown. If you want to travel to Carleton Place, you should pay more again. But we aren't even discussing fare zones and we are planning a new rapid transit system without preparing for it in our fare gates, something I observed last night in comparison with Vancouver's system a few days ago.

We have opportunities that we fail to address because our vision is so narrow. We fail to service a 1,000,000 square foot Amazon distribution centre. We have long-standing attractions beyond the urban area, such as our fall fairs, some of which are situated within our city boundaries (Carp, Richmond and Metcalfe). Because we have decided to have no regional transit system, we are not developing a culture where people start believing that we can go beyond the fringe without a car and those living there can sometimes come into the city without needing a car.

We need a better transit vision that goes beyond just the Confederation Line.

[rocketphish]

Mayor has hour-long meeting with contractors over LRT mess

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Sep 23, 2021 • 11 hours ago • 2 minute read

Four days after the most serious breakdown in the two-year history of Ottawa’s light-rail system, Mayor Jim Watson and a city contingent met with the brass from the train contractors on Thursday.

According to a statement from Watson’s office, the mayor stressed the city’s frustration with the $2.1-billion system and demanded action to get the 12.5-kilometre transit line safely running as soon as possible.

Already plagued with a series of problems, the entire rail line was shut Sunday after a train derailed just west of Tremblay Station. The early assessment is that a set of wheels derailed just before the station and, in a hobbled state, the train continued for hundreds of metres, even crossing a bridge over Riverside Drive.

Though no one was hurt, damage was extensive and photographs of the derailed rail car gave rise to concern that the outcome could have been much worse.

Replacement buses have been deployed and it might take three weeks to get the LRT operating again.

Watson’s office said the hour-long, virtual meeting included transit chair Allan Hubley, vice-chair Jean Cloutier, general manager Steve Kanellakos and transportation chief John Manconi.

They met with unidentified “senior executives” from Alstom, the train maker, Rideau Transit Group and its maintenance arm and representatives from the consortium’s member companies.

“The mayor expressed to them his frustration and disappointment, on behalf of all Ottawa residents, and the impact these service disruptions have had on residents’ daily lives and their confidence in our LRT system,” the statement said.

“Mayor Watson also highlighted that we have a very strong contract with RTG/RTM that protects our taxpayers and that they are on the hook for all expenses related to this disruption, from infrastructure and train repairs to costs related to the operation of R1 bus service.”

The city has a 30-year maintenance contract with Rideau Transit Maintenance and it contains penalty clauses if the system does not meet performance targets. It is unclear exactly what kind of assurance or action plan was presented by the private group.

“The senior executives assured Mayor Watson that they are also mobilizing their best resources in Ottawa, and that team will be on the ground in the coming days to implement their plan leading to the resumption of service.”

Following this derailment, the second in six weeks, the mayor is proposing that all riders get free transit in the month of December.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/watson-meets-with-rtg-rtm-over-lrt-mess

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You may be right about priorities but at some point there needs to be a more regional view of transit. Private providers are not going to do this for us. Ottawa is at least 4 times the size of Victoria, and they have successfully set up a regional transit system. Ottawa has a bigger "region" than Victoria with several surrounding towns of 5,000 to 10,000 or more. The bus going to Sooke was a double-decker and there were additional local bus routes for a town of just 13,000 about an hour from the city. In other words, comparable places like Arnprior, Carleton Place, Rockland, Kemptville, Casselman/Embrun/Russell and even places inside the city like Greely and Manotick. Has Ottawa become a 'can't do' city? It seems so.

It comes down to politics and funding. In BC (traditionally more left wing), all public transit in the province, outside of Greater Vancouver, falls under the responsibility of BC Transit, a provincial crown corporation, and I gather a significant portion of the funding comes from the province. This means that they look at the bigger picture when deciding how to provide service and will co-ordinate service between different municipalities.

In Ontario (traditionally more right wing), transit is left up to the cities and regions to operate. With this model, each agency only looks at service within their silo, without any consideration for their surrounding communities and little to no attempt to co-ordinate common routes. The province will provide some infrastructure funding, but the bulk of the operational funding is the responsibility of the local taxpayers.

[kmcamp]

So far rural communities have tried and failed at commuter bus services, the fixed costs for establishing such a system is too high. Perhaps a TransLink like model would work, outside municipalities could "opt-in" to OC Transpo, contributing funds in exchange for OC Transpo providing commuter and/or local service. It's far cheaper for OC Transpo to do it as they already have a large fleet, necessary infrastructure, etc

I don't think a second overlaying system like GO Transit would work here, you need a very large multi point region like the GTA

Taking the idea even further, you could merge the STO in and replace both with a regional transit body

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

So far rural communities have tried and failed at commuter bus services, the fixed costs for establishing such a system is too high. Perhaps a TransLink like model would work, outside municipalities could "opt-in" to OC Transpo, contributing funds in exchange for OC Transpo providing commuter and/or local service. It's far cheaper for OC Transpo to do it as they already have a large fleet, necessary infrastructure, etc

I don't think a second overlaying system like GO Transit would work here, you need a very large multi point region like the GTA

Taking the idea even further, you could merge the STO in and replace both with a regional transit body

The bigger problem that no one wants to talk about is the lack of rail infrastructure.

https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

Zoom in to the Ottawa area. There are no tracks to the biggest commuter area - Gatineau. No tracks go beyond Arnprior. And no tracks to Carlton Place. And no tracks to Greely. And no tracks along 174 route. Yes, putting a GO style system on existing tracks to commuter areas would work, but it wouldn't get the most people.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The bigger problem that no one wants to talk about is the lack of rail infrastructure.

https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

Zoom in to the Ottawa area. There are no tracks to the biggest commuter area - Gatineau. No tracks go beyond Arnprior. And no tracks to Carlton Place. And no tracks to Greely. And no tracks along 174 route. Yes, putting a GO style system on existing tracks to commuter areas would work, but it wouldn't get the most people.

And most importantly, no heavy rail tracks downtown.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

And most importantly, no heavy rail tracks downtown.

That too.

[DEWLine]

But since GO Transit already exists, why should we not consider pushing for their operations to expand towards and throughout the Ottawa/Eastern Ontario region in places where OC Transpo should not be going?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by DEWLine

But since GO Transit already exists, why should we not consider pushing for their operations to expand towards and throughout the Ottawa/Eastern Ontario region in places where OC Transpo should not be going?

We don't actually need another agency in the region. Just somebody to pay for the added costs of these services. There's no reason OC Transpo could not run these services with an appropriate cost sharing agreement drawn up between OC Transpo, Queen's Park and these cities and towns.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We don't actually need another agency in the region. Just somebody to pay for the added costs of these services. There's no reason OC Transpo could not run these services with an appropriate cost sharing agreement drawn up between OC Transpo, Queen's Park and these cities and towns.

I mean, both TTC and GO operate throughout Toronto. I don't think it would be the worst thing in the world if GO entered Ottawa to give OCTranspo something actually competitive in the transportation business, even if it were just runs to regional centres. The GO bus from Oshawa to Peterborough is roughly equivalent to Ottawa-Cornwall in terms of distance, and something like Ottawa/Carleton Place is roughly half of that distance. Anything that could potentially motivate OCTranspo to improve their servicing would be welcome, IMO.

[Truenorth00]

GO exists in no small part because the GTHA is massively fragmented with so many different local transit agencies, that the regional transit agency, needed to be separate. Ottawa has a very different context. OC Transpo has a huge area of responsibility and the communities just beyond its borders are much smaller than the GTA suburbs, with insignificant local transit systems.

I'm not opposed to the idea of GO setting up. But I think it would be a waste when OC Transpo can deliver the same services with very little additional overhead. Queen's Park just needs to pony up for 20-30 coach buses and a few mil in infrastructure funding.

[Truenorth00]

Ps. Can we move these posts to the regional transit thread?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm not opposed to the idea of GO setting up. But I think it would be a waste when OC Transpo can deliver the same services with very little additional overhead.

As a former Centretown and Ottawa resident I guess you're more optimistic on OCTranspo's ability to deliver services than I am.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JHikka

As a former Centretown and Ottawa resident I guess you're more optimistic on OCTranspo's ability to deliver services than I am.

All in the how the contract is written I guess.

[OCCheetos]

The TSB has posted a safety advisory letter regarding the August 8th derailment at Tunney's:

https://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/securite-safety/rail/2021/r21h0099/r21h0099-617-02-21.html

I don't believe it had been announced anywhere (even by the TSB) but that incident was under a Class 5 investigation, which is now complete.
https://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-investigations/rail/2021/R21H0099/R21H0099.html