What is Nashville's claim to fame other than country music?

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

You're in LA now right? Go to Howlin Ray's and you won't be disappointed

Gus fried chicken is also great.
It's a Memphis chain

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

I get it hot (2 levels below howlin plus which is crazy).

yeah, my local place has 5 levels of heat, and "hot" is my sweet spot too:

"naked" - basically just plain fried chicken, no heat.

"classic" - very pleasantly hot, but not over the top.

"hot" - extremely hot, basically at my upper limit of what i actually enjoy.

"X-hot" - never tried it, "hot" has more than enough heat for me.

"super crazy X-hot" - no thanks. i've long since outgrown my "food as a dare" phase of life. having my taste buds chemically destroyed for a week holds zero appeal for me.

[38 Geary]

For the intents and purposes of this thread, it does seem that other than country music, Nashville is far and away known for its hot chicken, followed by bachelorette parties as a distant third.

[edale]

There's an underlying theme to much of the criticism I've seen of Nashville-- both on this board and other places. It boils down to authenticity, or lack thereof.

It's really not about the specifics of when hot chicken was invented, how Broadway came to be honky tonk central, the boom in specific niches of tourism, etc., but rather the fact that Nashville has had an incredible rapid ascendence as a city in the past two decades, and appears to be cashing in on things that either aren't really true to the city, or are very exaggerated versions of the real thing.

I have no doubt hot chicken existed in Black Nashville prior to it becoming a nationwide 'thing'. But it wasn't well known as a regional food item to much of the country until recently. Everyone has heard of Kansas City BBQ, Philly cheesesteaks, Cincy chili, Chicago deep dish, etc. No one was talking about Nashville hot chicken in the 90s. Hot chicken, sure. Nashville as unique food destination because of hot chicken? No. The rapid rise of 'Nashville hot chicken' is, of course, the result of marketing and branding efforts. They've obviously been quite effective! It doesn't feel very authentic, though.

I think the same thing about the country culture and honky tonk central atmosphere of Broadway. Yes, Nashville has always been a center of country music. The Grand Ole Opry was there, and many record companies have long had a presence in Nashville. But the city, as a whole, was not some country town where everyone wore boots and cowboy hats around. That's the vibe the city presents now, and has been cashing in on for a couple decades. I agree that it's become a caricature of itself, and that caricature is what's appealing to the masses.

New Orleans is a city that's unapologetically itself, and has been forever. It's got the local food, music, architecture, culture that people find enticing. Nashville, by contrast, feels contrived and phony to a lot of people. I mean come on, it's a 4 hour drive from Ohio, but people flock there to get cowboy boots? It's a ruse. And from an urban perspective, Nashville is severely lacking in walkable neighborhoods outside of the Downtown area. The only other major city it probably beats in this category is Charlotte, which isn't saying much.

Idk, it's no surprise to me that Nashville doesn't get a lot of love in a forum like this. It doesn't need to, anyway. The rest of the country seems totally charmed by the image they've created for themselves. I know a girl from San Diego who recently had a destination bachelorette in Nashville. If you can convince girls in frickin San Diego that Nashville is the place to spend a weekend, you've marketed yourself well.

[Crawford]

I think that's a pretty good summation.

And, yeah, New Orleans vs. Nashville is illustrative of an centuries-old unapologetic, lived authenticity vs. a wildly successful, yet somewhat contrived, recent marketing/branding exercise. In short, Nashville isn't really what it's supposed to be, and New Orleans is.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I'm no expert on the style, but the place by me that claims to make "authentic" nashville hot chicken uses a spice paste on the chicken that is thicker and richer in flavor than your typical buffalo sauce, which tends to be more runny and vinegary/sour.


I LOVE Nashville hot chicken and Buffalo wings!

I also LOVE Cincy chili and Detroit-style pizza!

I also LOVE food!!!!!!!!!

Well, I guess I will have to head to some of the local joints around LA area for it. Seems like Howlin Ray’s is a good option.

[sopas ej]

Color me ignorant, but when did the "bachelorette party in Nashville" thing, become a thing? This thread is the first I've heard of it.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Color me ignorant, but when did the "bachelorette party in Nashville" thing, become a thing? This thread is the first I've heard of it.

10 years ago maybe? but i remember my sister in law who worked downtown starting to really complain about it about 7 years ago maybe? the term “Nashvegas” is at least 10 years old.

it seems to be a big thing for midwesterners from nearby states but coastal tv writers picked up on it and incorporated nashville getaways into plotlines at least 5 years ago.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Color me ignorant, but when did the "bachelorette party in Nashville" thing, become a thing?

given vegas' more masculine orientation with its in your face sexuality (strip clubs, prostitutes, brothels, etc.), i think nashville's less overtly sexual, but still fun, party atmosphere came to be seen as a "safer", more appropriate alternative for destination bachelorette parties for "middle-american" young women.

kinda like a "let the boys have their vegas, us girls are taking over nashville" attitude.

once it became "known" for that, and effectively marketed, it just snowballed from there.

[C.]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

I've been cutting down on fried food for the past several years, so when Los Angeles-based Howlin' Ray's and Dave's Hot Chicken opened up, I never bothered trying it, though I know that Howlin' Ray's had long lines when it first opened, and they'll be opening another location up soon closer to me in Pasadena, and Dave's Hot Chicken will be opening up a location near my work... so those are two Nashville hot chicken places I know of in the LA area. I'm willing to try them, I suppose.

Has anyone here had Howlin' Ray's and/or Dave's Hot Chicken?

Howlin' Ray's

LA Eater

Dave's Hot Chicken

Daily Hive/Instagram

Damn. I haven't ate lunch, but now I want Hot Chicken from my local Nashville Hot Chicken joint.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

10 years ago maybe? but i remember my sister in law who worked downtown starting to really complain about it about 7 years ago maybe? the term “Nashvegas” is at least 10 years old.

When I was a student at UT Knoxville in the 90s, people joked that Knoxville was "Knox Vegas".

It's a bit comical to think of the moribund state of Knoxville in the 1990s, just a decade after the 1982 World's Fair. The old World's Fair Park was completely overgrown, paint was peeling, and several of the Sun Sphere's windows were broken. I remember going in the thing in 1998 or 1999 and there were birds living in there, roosting and flying around on the observation deck level.

So in that example, there was a concerted push in the late 70s & early 80s to lift Knoxville's profile into something like what Asheville became and still is. The 1982 World's Fair had a sort-of EPCOT vibe, even as the park (and Knoxville's attractive downtown) became a ruin.

At the same time, DT Nashville was a bit of a ghost town. The Ryman Auditorium was almost demolished (and was in fact ominously surrounded by parking lots until about 1990). One block of Broadway was demolished for the old convention center, built around 1985, and the opposite side was demolished for the Nashville Arena, which opened in 1996. The Houston Oilers relocated first to Memphis, then to Nashville in the late 90s. A new football stadium, now Nissan Stadium, was built on land mostly owned by the Ingram family.

Nashville's downtown revival attempts in the 90s were very similar to the Baltimore Inner Harbor model. Hard Rock Cafe? Check. Planet Hollywood? Check.

In the later 00's is when new development began south of Broadway. First, the County Music Hall of Fame moved from Music Row to a site in what is now known as "SoBro". A first hotel opened nearby, with underground parking, that will probably be torn down and replaced with something much bigger sometime in the 2020s. The neoclassic Schermerhorn Concert Hall was built at this time, which is probably the only major neoclassic building built in a U.S. downtown since 2000. It was largely funded by the Ingram family. The old bridge that came down right in front of the Schermerhorn was turned into a pedestrian bridge and the new Korean Vets bridge was built nearby.

Around 2010 is when things got weird. There was a brief period when trust fund hipsters started moving to Nashville, especially East Nashville. This lasted from about 2007-2012. One night I was at the Red Door in Five Points and a group of 15 hipsters, dressed as American Indians, swooped in with streamers, tambourines, face paint, and finger cymbals. Some professed to be musicians, others woodworkers. Tristan Gaspadarek was emblematic of this era [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristen_Gaspadarek].

But the hipster period was as brief as it was intense. The Ingram family and other old families lost control of city development and all sorts of out-of-state developers, hedge funds, bachelorette parties, hot chicken, and west coast trust funders all showed up at the same time. And now here we are.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

Idk, it's no surprise to me that Nashville doesn't get a lot of love in a forum like this. It doesn't need to, anyway. The rest of the country seems totally charmed by the image they've created for themselves. I know a girl from San Diego who recently had a destination bachelorette in Nashville. If you can convince girls in frickin San Diego that Nashville is the place to spend a weekend, you've marketed yourself well.

To those of us originally from the Midwest, until very recently, Nashville looked like just another Dayton or Ft. Wayne. That means by 2030 these San Diego women and their bachelorette parties might be swarming Dayton and Ft. Wayne.

They'll be wearing cowboy hats with a Bill's Donut in one hand and Ft. Wayne Hot Chicken in the other.

[jkc2j]

Originally Posted by edale

There's an underlying theme to much of the criticism I've seen of Nashville-- both on this board and other places. It boils down to authenticity, or lack thereof.

It's really not about the specifics of when hot chicken was invented, how Broadway came to be honky tonk central, the boom in specific niches of tourism, etc., but rather the fact that Nashville has had an incredible rapid ascendence as a city in the past two decades, and appears to be cashing in on things that either aren't really true to the city, or are very exaggerated versions of the real thing.

I have no doubt hot chicken existed in Black Nashville prior to it becoming a nationwide 'thing'. But it wasn't well known as a regional food item to much of the country until recently. Everyone has heard of Kansas City BBQ, Philly cheesesteaks, Cincy chili, Chicago deep dish, etc. No one was talking about Nashville hot chicken in the 90s. Hot chicken, sure. Nashville as unique food destination because of hot chicken? No. The rapid rise of 'Nashville hot chicken' is, of course, the result of marketing and branding efforts. They've obviously been quite effective! It doesn't feel very authentic, though.

I think the same thing about the country culture and honky tonk central atmosphere of Broadway. Yes, Nashville has always been a center of country music. The Grand Ole Opry was there, and many record companies have long had a presence in Nashville. But the city, as a whole, was not some country town where everyone wore boots and cowboy hats around. That's the vibe the city presents now, and has been cashing in on for a couple decades. I agree that it's become a caricature of itself, and that caricature is what's appealing to the masses.

New Orleans is a city that's unapologetically itself, and has been forever. It's got the local food, music, architecture, culture that people find enticing. Nashville, by contrast, feels contrived and phony to a lot of people. I mean come on, it's a 4 hour drive from Ohio, but people flock there to get cowboy boots? It's a ruse. And from an urban perspective, Nashville is severely lacking in walkable neighborhoods outside of the Downtown area. The only other major city it probably beats in this category is Charlotte, which isn't saying much.

Idk, it's no surprise to me that Nashville doesn't get a lot of love in a forum like this. It doesn't need to, anyway. The rest of the country seems totally charmed by the image they've created for themselves. I know a girl from San Diego who recently had a destination bachelorette in Nashville. If you can convince girls in frickin San Diego that Nashville is the place to spend a weekend, you've marketed yourself well.

I appreciate your perspective, However, my question would be what would the ideal Nashville look like to you? How do you define what's authentic as a city grows or is a city like Nashville not supposed to grow and change? Is Las Vegas authentic? Orlando? Miami? It seems to me a lot of people have rose color glasses or an idea about a place based on images they've seen on tv or movies and music without actually knowing the culture or it's true identity.

Do I believe a lot of what's happened in Nashville is marketing and manufactured? Of course I do, but that's what touristy cities do. What makes Nashville any different than any other city in this regard? My one true issue with the city is not that it's capitalized on it's country music heritage but that it hasn't embraced it's Black population or just outright been completely ignored for decades. A people that's given so much to the cities culture and not being promoted to the same extent as the country music culture, to the point you have people on this very forum that believe hot chicken was "invented in 2017" which is ridiculous, especially to someone who was born and raised here. It's almost like a slap in the face to the people who not only created the dish but those of us who grew up eating it.

Most people don't know the moniker "Music City" had nothing with country music and was given to the Fisk Jubilee Singers after performing for Queen Victoria in the late 19th century. The music history of Jefferson St, the many prominent Black people who got their education here i.e. WEB Dubois, Ida B Wells, Oprah Winfrey etc. Also, the Nashville sit ins that actually inspired Martin Luther King Jr. for his activism in the Civil Rights Movement. There's a lot of history here that rarely gets talked about because it's being over shadowed by what brings in the tourist dollars.

[edale]

Originally Posted by jkc2j

I appreciate your perspective, However, my question would be what would the ideal Nashville look like to you? How do you define what's authentic and and not as a city grows or is a city like Nashville not supposed to grow and change? Is Las Vegas authentic? Orlando? Miami? It seems to me a lot of people have rose color glasses or an idea about a place based on images they've seen on tv or movies without actually knowing the culture or it's true identify.

Do I believe a lot of what's happened in Nashville is marketing and manufactured? Of course I do, but that's what touristy cities do. What makes Nashville any different than any other city of this nature? My one true issue with the city is not that it's capitalized on it's country music heritage but that it hasn't embraced it's Black population that's given so much to the cities culture and not promoted it to the same extent as the country music culture, to the point you have people on this very forum that believed hot chicken was "invented in 2017" which is ridiculous, especially to someone who was born and raised here. It's almost like a slap in the face to the people who not only created the dish but those of us who grew up eating it.

Most people don't know the moniker "Music City" had nothing with country music and was given to the Fisk Jubilee Singers after performing for Queen Victoria in the late 19th century. The music history of Jefferson St, the many prominent Black people who got their education here i.e. WEB Dubois, Ida B Wells, Oprah Winfrey etc. Also, the Nashville sit ins that actually inspired Martin Luther King Jr. for his activism in the Civil Rights Movement. There's a lot of history here that rarely gets talked about because it's being over shadowed by what brings in the tourist dollars.

I think Nashville's 'white' image is a HUGE part of the marketing angle it uses to attract the crowds it does. Rather than embracing the Black community and its influence on not only Nashville but the music the city has crafted its identity around, Nashville appears to celebrate and glamorize the stereotypical white country identity more broadly. That's why you see Bakersfield-style outlaw country trotted around as if that was a Nashville invention. It's why you see the embrace of Texas iconography, like the boots and cowboy hats in a place where that style was never native.

Nashville's national image is very white. Which puts it in stark contrast to other Southern, musically influenced towns like Memphis and New Orleans. I don't think that's accidental.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by edale

I think Nashville's 'white' image is a HUGE part of the marketing angle it uses to attract the crowds it does. Rather than embracing the Black community and its influence on not only Nashville but the music the city has crafted its identity around, Nashville appears to celebrate and glamorize the stereotypical white country identity more broadly. That's why you see Bakersfield-style outlaw country trotted around as if that was a Nashville invention. It's why you see the embrace of Texas iconography, like the boots and cowboy hats in a place where that style was never native.

Nashville's national image is very white. Which puts it in stark contrast to other Southern, musically influenced towns like Memphis and New Orleans. I don't think that's accidental.

Well, looking up the whole "bachelorette party in Nashville" thing, this is one of the websites I saw: https://www.shopstagandhen.com/pages/nashville-bachelorette-party-guide

It does indeed look like it only appeals to (is trying only to attract?) a certain demographic. I can't imagine any of my straight female friends fitting into that scene.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Well, looking up the whole "bachelorette party in Nashville" thing, this is one of the websites I saw: https://www.shopstagandhen.com/pages/nashville-bachelorette-party-guide

It does indeed look like it only appeals to (is trying only to attract?) a certain demographic. I can't imagine any of my straight female friends fitting into that scene.

That link supports that the proliferation of Nashville hot chicken is at least somewhat the result of a marketing gimmick.

[Crawford]

Isn't hot fried chicken/fish more or less a thing in black neighborhoods from coast to coast?

In a historically black area of Brooklyn, I've eaten pan-fried whiting, served spicy, with cayenne-vinegar blend, on white bread. The same place also has pan fried chicken, served spicy, on white bread. I'm pretty sure I've seen this in other black neighborhoods, in other cities. Definitely in DC and Detroit. There are "you buy, we fry" joints, with all kinds of seasoning blends, all over.

The "country-western" association is equally odd. Nashville has never been country or western. No cowboy wear, no honky tonks. It's obviously southeastern, not southwestern, another Raleigh, not another Amarillo. It's always been a center for music, but the industry (and its stars) are primarily in LA these days.

So, yeah, it's a triumph of marketing. And has been amazingly successful, especially among white Midwestern women. Lots of people I know in MI head to Nashville for party weekends, which is a very recent thing. But no way in hell are these same women going to 7 mile road in Detroit for hot fried chicken/fish.

[BnaBreaker]

Perhaps I'm off base here, but I get the impression sometimes that much of the criticism Nashville gets is a result of the fact that it no longer fits into the box it's long time critics have always put it in, and want to keep it in. The criticisms of Nashville I often heard growing up was that it wasn't 'chic' enough, and was behind the times, and generic, and too sprawly and, of course, that it was just another 'backwards southern hick town.' I grew up hearing that shit. Hell, when I moved to Chicago in high school, some classmates asked me if I had electricity and rode a horse to school back home. That was in the mid-90's.

But now that it has a unique identity, and is attracting upscale brands and Michelin starred chefs, and building flashy skyscrapers and urban neighborhoods, many of those same people seem even more disgusted with it. Now those same people criticize it for being supposedly "inauthentic," because the girl that never had a seat at the cool kids table suddenly is getting a lot of positive attention. 'She's not the hot one, I'm supposed to be the hot one!' But is that an example of Nashville being "inauthentic?" Or is it an example simply of it evolving, as every city everywhere does, all the time?

I mean don't get me wrong. There are certainly elements of the city's image these days that are driven by marketing to a certain extent. And yeah, I'd be the first to admit that some of the shit you'll see down on Broadway is incredibly corny and contrived. But since when is a city not allowed to market toward and cater to the demands of tourists? Since when is a 220 year old city of two million people suddenly entirely "inauthentic" because on a single three block stretch of a single street in a single neighborhood there are a few more honky tonk bars than there used to be, or because a local dish is now more well known than it used to be? Are Philly Cheesesteaks no longer authentic because you can find them at gas stations in Alaska instead of only on Philly's Southside? Or maybe we're just going to pretend there was no marketing involved there? Is New Orleans no longer authentic because tourists from North Dakota wear Mardi Gras beads at Silky O'Sullivan's in mid-July? What other city is held to this lofty and bizarre a standard?

[BnaBreaker]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Isn't hot fried chicken/fish more or less a thing in black neighborhoods from coast to coast?

In a historically black area of Brooklyn, I've eaten pan-fried whiting, served spicy, with cayenne-vinegar blend, on white bread. The same place also has pan fried chicken, served spicy, on white bread. I'm pretty sure I've seen this in other black neighborhoods, in other cities. Definitely in DC and Detroit. There are "you buy, we fry" joints, with all kinds of seasoning blends, all over.

The "country-western" association is equally odd. Nashville has never been country or western. No cowboy wear, no honky tonks. It's obviously southeastern, not southwestern, another Raleigh, not another Amarillo. It's always been a center for music, but the industry (and its stars) are primarily in LA these days.

So, yeah, it's a triumph of marketing. And has been amazingly successful, especially among white Midwestern women. Lots of people I know in MI head to Nashville for party weekends, which is a very recent thing. But no way in hell are these same women going to 7 mile road in Detroit for hot fried chicken/fish.

So your 'proof' that Nashville's country music identity and also it's signature dish is completely fake bullshit, is that one time you had spicy fried fish somewhere else, and also that most natives in Nashville don't wear boots? Do the natives of Honolulu wear Bermuda shorts and flower shirts? I remember eating a beef and cheese sandwich in Dallas once... sorry Philly, you can't claim the Cheesesteak!

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker

So your 'proof' that Nashville's country music identity and also it's signature dish is completely fake bullshit, is that one time you had spicy fried fish somewhere else, and also that most natives in Nashville don't wear boots?

I don't think it's "completely fake bullshit", but it is wildly successful marketing. Of course most successful marketing starts with a grain of truth, and there certainly was hot chicken in Nashville, and Nashville was the traditional center for country-western music industry.

It's amazing how Nashville built its brand, and I admit I'm somewhat jealous, in that there are (to my eyes) more interesting U.S. cities that are stagnant or rotting away. Memphis, Birmingham and lots of cities north of the Ohio River. Don't think there will be travel bachorlette parties in Dayton or Louisville anytime soon.

And it's interesting to ponder associations. Why is hot chicken associated with a city, rather than associated with black culinary traditions? Why are some authentic local foods, like Alabama white BBQ, or Buffalo beef-on-weck, largely unknown, while others explode?