Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They actually should. They should let Metrolinx become an actual grownup regional transport authority with rights to impose taxes, tolls, surcharges, etc. And fill authority for roads, taxis and transit in the region.

It will let the GTA move past the ridiculous nonsense where transit construction is at the mercy of a bunch of MPPs from Sudbury and Niagara. And also put an end to excuses for bad policy elsewhere. "But we're subsidizing Toronto." -Some dumbass in Petawawa.

Ottawa should get the same deal too. We already have most of it, except maybe the right to impose tolls.

What taxes, tolls, surcharges, etc. other than properly taxes, does OC Transpo (or the city for that matter) have the right to impose?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The red herring that roger1818 brought up was that we also subsidize Metrolinx.

For the 2018-19 business year (prior to COVID), Metrolinx’s revenue was $662 million comprised of $566.7 million from fare revenue and $95.4 million from non-fare revenue (like PRESTO fees charged to other transit agencies). However,
their operating costs totaled $1.16 billion and their capital expenditure was $3.86 billion. Where do you think the extra $4.36 billion came from? I wasn’t seriously arguing that we should defund Metrolinx, I was just making a point that the province (and federal government) does fund transit to some exurbs.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/aboutus/publications/Metrolinx-2018-19-Annual-Report-FINAL.PDF

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

What taxes, tolls, surcharges, etc. other than properly taxes, does OC Transpo (or the city for that matter) have the right to impose?

I presume that Ottawa has the right to tax parking spots. And of course, it has the right to levy property taxes, hotel surcharges, taxi fees, etc. Individual municipalities have some or all of these rights in the GTA, but Metrolinx does not. Turning it into something effective like Transport for London (TfL) would involve allowing for such revenue raising authorities.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I wasn’t seriously arguing that we should defund Metrolinx, I was just making a point that the province (and federal government) does fund transit to some exurbs.

And that's a poor policy that has come about because our provincial government doesn't allow cities to raise sufficient funds to operate such services. Queen's Park really shouldn't be in the business of running transit in the GTA, now that Metrolinx is around. And similarly, it doesn't need to be responsible for regional services in Ottawa.

Sadly, the place where the provincial and federal government should be involved? Intercity and inter-provincial travel is where they show little to no commitment. Where is the provincial effort to connect Ottawa to Kingston and North Bay? Where is the federal effort to ensure hourly frequency and a 1 hr travel time between Ottawa and Montreal?

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Where is the provincial effort to connect Ottawa to Kingston and North Bay?

Well for North Bay, it's with the bus service operated by Ontario Northland, a crown corporation. While Ottawa isn't a hub but rather a destination, it's part of quite a large network across northern Ontario now. Their 1 trip/day service isn't much but it does match Greyhound, and we'll have to see what happens as things return to normal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I presume that Ottawa has the right to tax parking spots. And of course, it has the right to levy property taxes, hotel surcharges, taxi fees, etc. Individual municipalities have some or all of these rights in the GTA, but Metrolinx does not. Turning it into something effective like Transport for London (TfL) would involve allowing for such revenue raising authorities.

AFAIK, the city can't levie a surcharge on parking rates in private parking lots (obviously they control the rates for public parking). They can have different tax rates for different zonning, so in theory there could be a zone for dedicated parking with a higher tax rate, but it gets complicated when the land has both a building and a parking lot.

And that's a poor policy that has come about because our provincial government doesn't allow cities to raise sufficient funds to operate such services.

The city (and transit agencies) are very limited in how they can raise funds, and I don't see the province relinquishing that power any time soon.

Queen's Park really shouldn't be in the business of running transit in the GTA, now that Metrolinx is around.

Metrolinx either wouldn't exist or would be a shadow of its current self if the Ontario Government hadn't taken over commuter rail services in the GTHA from the railways in the 60s and 70s. Giving an unelected body the power to set taxes would be a dangerous. And the province won't want to be seen taxing region more than another, even if all the money goes to a local organization.

And similarly, it doesn't need to be responsible for regional services in Ottawa.

If we can find a way for Metrolinx to be funded locally, then sure. Until then, why not?

Sadly, the place where the provincial and federal government should be involved? Intercity and inter-provincial travel is where they show little to no commitment. Where is the provincial effort to connect Ottawa to Kingston and North Bay? Where is the federal effort to ensure hourly frequency and a 1 hr travel time between Ottawa and Montreal?

I agree that the provincial and federal governments should be doing more to fund both intercity transit (both bus and rail). Unfortunately part of the problem is that (as I said on UT), the oportunities to save money on road work by funding intercity transit are greatly reduced. On an average weekday in 2018, GO would have 276,500 boardings (215,500 train, 61,000 bus). That is a lot of cars off of the road (mostly during rush hour) on some of the busiest streets in the country. VIA's traffic is distributed throughout the day and even then, between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, HFR would have an initial, maximum capacity of less than 15,000 (492 x 15 x 2). Given the longer distances traveled, the polution reductions are still significant, but the reductions in congestion (and thus money saved from road contruction) are lower.

This also explains why there has been little interest in improved regional transit at the provincial and federal level in Ottawa. It might be good from an environmental perspective, but the cost benefites are't significant compared to the alternative of letting people just drive.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Catenary

Well for North Bay, it's with the bus service operated by Ontario Northland, a crown corporation. While Ottawa isn't a hub but rather a destination, it's part of quite a large network across northern Ontario now. Their 1 trip/day service isn't much but it does match Greyhound, and we'll have to see what happens as things return to normal.

Actually, prior to COVID, both Ontario Northland and Greyhound each had 1 bus a day from Ottawa to Sudbury via North Bay.

[Truenorth00]

If provincial and federal interest on public transport is entirely predicated on cars being taken off the road or reducing congestion, there's really not much of a case for rural transit.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If provincial and federal interest on public transport is entirely predicated on cars being taken off the road or reducing congestion, there's really not much of a case for rural transit.

It is not "entirely predicated on" it, but it does provide a significant incentive. There is also often a huge difference between what the government should do and what the governemt does.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The city (and transit agencies) are very limited in how they can raise funds, and I don't see the province relinquishing that power any time soon.

Here in the US, most cities have a sales tax... For example, here in Phoenix the sales tax is broken down as: State - 5.6%, County 0.7%, City - 2.3% for a total of 8.6% tax on all sales (as you know, there is no GST equivalent in the US).

Not that I'm advocating yet another new tax (i.e. Property Taxes should be reduced), but sales taxes are one of the most "fair" ways of raising revenue.

Why wouldn't the province allow something like this model?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Here in the US, most cities have a sales tax... For example, here in Phoenix the sales tax is broken down as: State - 5.6%, County 0.7%, City - 2.3% for a total of 8.6% tax on all sales (as you know, there is no GST equivalent in the US).

Not that I'm advocating yet another new tax (i.e. Property Taxes should be reduced), but sales taxes are one of the most "fair" ways of raising revenue.

Why wouldn't the province allow something like this model?

It is a power struggle. The province wants to take all of the sales tax revenue and then fund local projects that they will get good media attention from. By letting the cities take a percentage of the tax revenue and fund thier own projects, they wouldn't get any of the publicity that the local MLA/MPP/MNA/MHA can brag about in the next provincial election. The government can also direct more funding in regions that they need more votes in.

[HighwayStar]

Thanks... interesting... democracy in action.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Thanks... interesting... democracy in action.

LOL. I should add, those with less of a cynical view might say it allows funding to be redirected from the richer communities to the places that need it the most.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

LOL. I should add, those with less of a cynical view might say it allows funding to be redirected from the richer communities to the places that need it the most.

A more accurate viewpoint would be that it funnels resources from productive communities to unsustainable ones who want services and infrastructure they can't afford.

This is a huge part of why I'd love the province to get out of the transit funding game and hand over revenue powers to municipalities.

[Acajack]

Orléans Express is starting intercity motorcoach service on a Montreal-Ottawa-Gatineau route tomorrow.

AFAIK stops in the region are:

Ottawa VIA Rail station

Downtown somewhere on Slater

Place du Portage

Promenades Gatineau

[Beedok]

I wonder if that will make busing past Montreal easier, being able to do it with all one company.

[lrt's friend]

History is repeating itself. We are going back to the days of localized bus lines, hopefully better addressing local needs. In the old days in Ottawa, it was Colonial Bus Lines. Amalgamation of bus companies since the 1960s has eventually led to degradation of service and total failure.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

History is repeating itself. We are going back to the days of localized bus lines, hopefully better addressing local needs. In the old days in Ottawa, it was Colonial Bus Lines. Amalgamation of bus companies since the 1960s has eventually led to degradation of service and total failure.

I am not quite sure it is quite that simple. When Colonial Bus Lines was incorporated in 1928, Ottawa's transportation needs were significantly different. Bus, rail and horse transport declined in popularity as automobile and air transport grew in popularity.

Also, it isn't clear yet if these new "localized bus lines" will "address local needs" any better than Greyhound did, or if they will only compete with each other on higher yielding intercity transport.

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Orléans Express is starting intercity motorcoach service on a Montreal-Ottawa-Gatineau route tomorrow.

AFAIK stops in the region are:

Ottawa VIA Rail station

Downtown somewhere on Slater

Place du Portage

Promenades Gatineau

Hello everyone! After years of reading the forum, I have finally decided to register and start contributing to the conversation. Thank you all for the interesting content to date!

In terms of the recent bus developments, the fact that both the new Toronto and Montreal lines are being routed to the VIA Terminal rather than our old Catherine bus station is extremely exciting to me!

Having an intermodal station that combines VIA Rail, intercity bus routes and an O-Train Station that isn't too far from the downtown core (given the ultimate extension to Trim), is a real improvement in my eyes.

I hope there will be some way to formalize this as a long term solution (e.g., with a better and more expanded facility), so that we don't find the bus routes eventually relocated to another terminus for the future that prevents us from enjoying those benefits!

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

Hello everyone! After years of reading the forum, I have finally decided to register and start contributing to the conversation. Thank you all for the interesting content to date!

In terms of the recent bus developments, the fact that both the new Toronto and Montreal lines are being routed to the VIA Terminal rather than our old Catherine bus station is extremely exciting to me!

Having an intermodal station that combines VIA Rail, intercity bus routes and an O-Train Station that isn't too far from the downtown core (given the ultimate extension to Trim), is a real improvement in my eyes.

I hope there will be some way to formalize this as a long term solution (e.g., with a better and more expanded facility), so that we don't find the bus routes eventually relocated to another terminus for the future that prevents us from enjoying those benefits!

Welcome to the forum!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

History is repeating itself. We are going back to the days of localized bus lines, hopefully better addressing local needs. In the old days in Ottawa, it was Colonial Bus Lines. Amalgamation of bus companies since the 1960s has eventually led to degradation of service and total failure.

At least in the context of the (Gatineau-)Ottawa-Montreal run, I am not sure that Orléans Express should be described as little guys offering localized service.

They're part of Keolis a huge French transportation conglomerate that may be bigger than Greyhound ever was.

For this region, they aren't offering any local service between Ottawa VIA and the West Island of Montreal (there will be a stop in Kirkland or Pointe-Claire).

Orléans Express is a "major cities only" transporter between Quebec City and Montreal as well: the only stop on the north route is Trois-Rivières, and on the south route there is only Drummondville.

East of Quebec City (and especially in the Gaspésie), they offer a much more comprehensive service to local communities, closer to what you'd have in mind.