Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation
 

starting a new thread separate from the commuter rail network...

Russell got some bad news regarding the Ottawa LRT transition

Staff Report
https://russell.civicweb.net/FileSto...te)%20fin.docx

City Presentation
https://russell.civicweb.net/FileSto...f%20Ottawa.pdf

OC Fare structure
https://russell.civicweb.net/FileSto...0Structure.pdf

It will be very difficult to sell any sort of rural service that requires paying double fares and requires a transfer to reach downtown. With many services only offering one or two trips, the risks of missing an outgoing transfer and being left stranded will make the service very unattractive. This is why only a tiny portion of existing riders transfer to OC routes. The only way these services can succeed is to provide one seat service. Of course, the Rockland service with many trips may be successful with a transfer to LRT but even in that case, there are risks that many riders may abandon the service.

It’s politically impossible right now, but the province needs to step in and provide an Ottawa version of Go Transit. After all, these are technically intercity travels.

What Russell should do is have the routes terminate at St. Laurent in the AM and transfer to the LRT from there, but then have the routes start downtown in the PM.

For Rockland, using Blair as terminus (and later Trim after Phase 2) for both AM inbound and PM outbound should be fine because of route is high frequency, as lrt's friend pointed out (it's comparable to OC Transpo's Connexion routes).

As for fare integration.. that's a tough one. The sweetheart deal that these transit agencies were getting of very cheap access to OC Transpo's network was only fair to Ottawa when so few of the riders of these services were using that option. But if it becomes typical/standard... that's a problem. The province should step in and provided a funded fair integration solution.

Though one thing that does need to give: both Russell and Rockland charge absurdly high fares because they're so unwilling to subsidize their services (IIRC, Russell actually aims for cost recovery). Public transit needs public funding. They should aim for more realistic farebox recovery ratios (say 50%), and then from there, the province steps in with fare integration subsidies.

I think the old rail corridor behind Science and Tech should be repurposed as a transitway from the 417 to Hurdman. It's already grade separated for the most part, with so many expensive viaducts currently just sitting useless. It would be a great way of getting eastern exurban and intercity buses out of the Queensway traffic, plus it would make a great extension to the southeast transitway with a station at the Trainyards and the museum.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4809/4...825c7bb1_b.jpg

Interesting idea. Buses from Innes could make good use of it, too.

How do you propose building through the Train Yards shopping centre? There seem to be a few buildings in the way now not shown on Google maps.

The old ROW runs through the OC Transpo bus depot, then behind the Michael/Marshalls/Sail stores. On Google maps it's mostly just used as parking and tractor trailer storage, then it's straight into Terminal avenue which already has a bridge over Riverside and clear access to Hurdman. Narrow slivers from about 5 industrial properties might have to be expropriated, but there are no buildings directly on the route.

I hope you realize your propose route would take it right through the OC Transpo garage where all the double deckers are parked so there is no way this idea would be considered.

Nevermind my comment you already knew that.

The province should limit the growth of these exurbs with no transit service.

Rockland and Russell/Embrun have municipal transit agencies that seem to be doing well enough.. it seems like the Russell one is somewhat precarious but the Rockland one looks to be in good shape. If those townships could be convinced to actually fund the service properly and the province stepped in to solve issues related to fare integration, I think transit out there could have a go. Thanks to the way Ottawa is distributed, with the urban area going further west than east, Rockland and Russell aren't actually as far out of the city as one would think. Rockland is actually about the same distance to downtown as Stittsville is! And those areas are developing alright enough... notably, in Russell all the new subdivisions are within the town and reasonably dense, as opposed to places like Kemptville where new development is acre lots on backroads.

But when it comes to place like Kemptville and Carleton Place that are much further beyond the city, where there's no public transit, and where development is not being done well, then yes, the province should absolutely clip their growth. It was a mistake twinning the 7 out to Carleton Place; they should have twinned the 17 to Rockland instead.

Heck, there might even be a solid case to expand Ottawa's municipal borders to include Russell and Clarence-Rockland.

If we are talking about commuter service, it is not always density that matters but the number of people that might be served. All that needs to be provided is a Park n Ride lot and maybe a few other key pick up points. If we are ever going to be considering commuter rail service, then a proper commuter bus service must be established first. At some point, satellite towns should have commuter service. Exurb sprawl is inevitable as the cost of housing in the city continues to rise. If we provide no service, then we create traffic problems leading into the city, which adds to the traffic headaches that those who already live in the urban area experience. There are already examples of this and areas within the Ottawa city boundary that receive no transit service even though population would suggest that there should be. I am thinking of Greely.

I have another idea:
Let OC Transpo take over those services, but charge extra fare (hopefully not an exorbitant amount) outside of city boundary. It’s similar to how taking TTC requires extra fare north of Steeles Avenue (except 905N and Toronto are so integrated that such fare no longer makes sense).

It’s probably politically infeasible though.

But yea, I agree with the idea of including Clearance-Rockland in Ottawa.

Their problems should not become the problems of Ottawa taxpayers. I don't see any reason why they should get any sweetheart deals. They paid for cheaping housing out there. The downside is and should be their commuting cost.

As for setting up GO transit. GO was not set up to connect townships of 10 000 to downtown Toronto. It was set up to actually connect suburbs that were actual cities in their own right.

Ottawa doesn't need GO. What is needed here is for these towns to subsidize the commutes of their own residents or for the residents to comprehend that buying acre lots in the boonies has a downside.

And no merger of OC Transpo with their services. That's just the slippery slope to more direct subsidies of their services.

Put on a congestion charge around Ottawa and watch how quickly traffic ameliorates and how quickly people take up transit.

Traffic is not "inevitable". It's a direct function of the low cost of driving. Gas and parking are still cheap enough that commuting costs are an afterthought when shopping for housing in the exurbs. It Ottawa had congestion tolls at the greenbelt, these towns would be a quarter the size and Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans would be half the size.

Unfortunately, congestion tolls might be politically difficult. In that case, I fully support making the commuters bear every penny of their commuting costs. No sweetheart deals for fare integration. And not a penny should go from Ottawa taxpayers towards facilitating services for them. Either their pay for it, or the province can. People need to understand the cost of sprawl and pay for it.

I also don't buy the bullshit of "as housing prices rise", exurban growth is inevitable. What's happening here is that people aren't changing expectations of housing despite the city growing in population. They still want the 2200 sqft McMansion on the 0.2 acre lot. And so all of a sudden, "Housing is too expensive." And "we're being forced to move to the suburbs". Nobody is forcing you to do squat. Adjust your expectation of living space for a city of a million and you can still live in a reasonably convenient location. Making exurban commuters bear the cost of their commutes might actually help along this realization. They are among the worst offenders of the mindset described above. Your lifestyle choice should not require effort or subsidy from me. It's your problem.

Amen to that. These are my thoughts exactly whenever the argument is made that people are forced into the exurbs.

Don't you think Ottawa's boundaries are big enough as it is? Perhaps way too big?

On this side, I don't actually think Masson-Angers-Buckingham should have been included in the merged Gatineau. Should have been Hull-Aylmer-Gatineau.

The City of Ottawa should probably extend no further west than the fringes of Stittsville and no further east than the fringes of Orleans.

The City of Ottawa is ridiculously large. Should have been limited to inside the Greenbelt.

But there was too much laziness and a desire to avoid county/regional level of government. So we end up with places like freakin' Greely being part of the "City of Ottawa". Ridiculous.

... and Ashton, Galetta, Burritts Rapids, Sarsfield, Vars, Marionville.

Not that I have anything against those places (or against Masson-Angers-Buckingham in our case), but it doesn't make much sense to include them in the central city.

So anywhere "west" (or northwest?) of Highway 7 should be in either Lanark or Renfrew County, anywhere east of Orlean in Prescott-Russell County, and something like Greely in Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry? (Oh and Manotick should be in Leeds and Grenville County too. It doesn't have the Ottawa feel to it, at all.)

Back to topic... So it's indeed fair for those rural transportation companies to charge a high fare to keep a high farebox recovery ratio then? :rolleyes: