VIA Rail

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Are they not linked? EMUs have improved acceleration, and I think even electric locomotives do as well.

Yes. This is usually though of as mostly important for urban and suburban trains that stop frequently, but still a consideration. In this case it may allow trains to slow down down and speed up more quickly for changes in track conditions. They mentioned speeds up to 200km/h but there are sections of the track that would not be suitable for this due to level crossings or curves. Being able to regain speed quickly after slowing for such sections would help to maintain a higher average speed. Plus, having electrification in place also paves the way for future upgrades that do increase speed beyond what's reasonable for diesel.

And of course a big part of electrification is reduced maintenance costs, and reduced CO2 emissions. The corridor is the ideal place for electrification since a large proportion of the electricity comes from hydro and nuclear.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Are they not linked? EMUs have improved acceleration, and I think even electric locomotives do as well.

Improved acceleration is all but pointless if your corridor is designed for an average speed of 120 kph. Which is exactly what the math works out to, for Toronto-Montreal.

That said. This is better than nothing. And it's just the kind of mediocrity that might actually get built in Canada. So....

[milomilo]

So this is actually going to be electrified? That's a pretty huge (and positive) change in scope, but this is confusing, we're still pretty light on details. If "90%" of services are to be electrified, my best guess is that the busier Toronto - Montreal section will have OHLE, but Montreal - Quebec will not and they'll run diesels on that section. This implies the Montreal - Quebec section will be much less used (which is obvious).

I'm sceptical though. This is either a pretty major, unexpected, announcement, or there's some misinformation.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Improved acceleration is all but pointless if your corridor is designed for an average speed of 120 kph. Which is exactly what the math works out to, for Toronto-Montreal.

That said. This is better than nothing. And it's just the kind of mediocrity that might actually get built in Canada. So....

Why is this mediocre (at least compared to what we were to expect)? We've been defending HFR for years, and this is what is being announced, plus potentially more. I'm confused by your disappointment - is there something I am missing?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

So this is actually going to be electrified? That's a pretty huge (and positive) change in scope, but this is confusing, we're still pretty light on details. If "90%" of services are to be electrified, my best guess is that the busier Toronto - Montreal section will have OHLE, but Montreal - Quebec will not and they'll run diesels on that section. This implies the Montreal - Quebec section will be much less used (which is obvious).

I'm sceptical though. This is either a pretty major, unexpected, announcement, or there's some misinformation.

All the original proposals going back to 2013 had electrification as a $1-2B option. So it looks like they are going to take that up.

I get why they are doing that. But electrification really doesn't do much for riders. It's more about reducing costs for the operator. How much of those cost savings can be passed on to passengers is debatable.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why is this mediocre (at least compared to what we were to expect)? We've been defending HFR for years, and this is what is being announced, plus potentially more. I'm confused by your disappointment - is there something I am missing?

It's pretty much in line with what has been rumoured for years. That's kinda the mediocre part. They haven't committed to a through service at Montreal. So it's possible that Montreal-Quebec will operate from another station or take forever to get around Mount Royal. They haven't committed to any actual speed upgrades, beyond simply just building a dedicated passenger corridor. This sounds like little to no value engineering or opportunity investing was considered. They are literally committing to the bare basics to deliver a dedicated passenger rail corridor. Their only added investment is electrification.

Heck, there's not even much of a proposed timeline beyond a rough idea that they'll offer up an RFP in the Fall. That would mean a full service launch in 2026-2027. Though hopefully the piecemeal approach allows them to upgrade and launch some portions (like Ottawa-Montreal) earlier.

So, while I am excited for Canadian intercity rail to enter the 1970s by developed world standards, it's kinda sad that it's still such a tenuous and unambitious proposal and we can't even be sure it will survive the election with the opposition party already opposed.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

All the original proposals going back to 2013 had electrification as a $1-2B option. So it looks like they are going to take that up.

I get why they are doing that. But electrification really doesn't do much for riders. It's more about reducing costs for the operator. How much of those cost savings can be passed on to passengers is debatable.

It's pretty much in line with what has been rumoured for years. That's kinda the mediocre part. They haven't committed to a through service at Montreal. So it's possible that Montreal-Quebec will operate from another station or take forever to get around Mount Royal. They haven't committed to any actual speed upgrades, beyond simply just building a dedicated passenger corridor. This sounds like little to no value engineering or opportunity investing was considered. They are literally committing to the bare basics to deliver a dedicated passenger rail corridor. Their only added investment is electrification.

Heck, there's not even much of a proposed timeline beyond a rough idea that they'll offer up an RFP in the Fall. That would mean a full service launch in 2026-2027. Though hopefully the piecemeal approach allows them to upgrade and launch some portions (like Ottawa-Montreal) earlier.

So, while I am excited for Canadian intercity rail to enter the 1970s by developed world standards, it's kinda sad that it's still such a tenuous and unambitious proposal and we can't even be sure it will survive the election with the opposition party already opposed.

The announcement itself is very disappointing as it is so light on details. But it lines up with our expectations and goes beyond them with the addition of electrification. By the standards of global rail, HFR is mediocre, but that's always what it was going to be and is almost the point. I'd worry more if they committed to making it more expensive than it needs to be, as then it might not get built at all. But by getting the route started, it has a much better chance of getting finished and upgraded later.

[Nouvellecosse]

Well I think it's great. It may be mediocre when comparing it as a final outcome to the core rail networks of other major countries, but I don't think it's mediocre as a step forward. I would argue that compared to the current situation, it's a similarly huge incremental improvement as many HSR projects were compared to their predecessor HFR services. In terms of passenger experience, the much improved flexibility and reliability will be a game changer even with relatively modest improvements in trip time. After all, service quality has many aspects rather than just trip duration.

Although to be honest, if the average speed does turn out to be 120km/h, I think that also sounds great. I mean, that's basically like in you were in a car traveling at highway speeds above the official 100km/h limit the entire way without stopping and with auto pilot allowing you to read or watch a video while having the ability to get up and walk around, use the restroom, etc. All while not having to deal with traffic getting in/out of town. Even with full automated that's a combination that a car still won't offer. By comparison, prior to the covid service suspension, The Ocean's Halifax - Moncton segment was scheduled at a duration of 4:17 compared to the Google maps estimated driving time between the stations of 2:51. And by experience, I can attest that the scheduled time is not overly conservative.

[goodgrowth]

These inter-city "HSR" train proposals always try to cover too much distance/too many cities. The case for inter-city rail is very limited before it gets beat by vehicle or air.

Canada should just start with building a dedicated HSR between Ottawa-Montreal. See how that goes. If it goes well then build a HSR line between Toronto-Ottawa.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

These inter-city "HSR" train proposals always try to cover too much distance/too many cities. The case for inter-city rail is very limited before it gets beat by vehicle or air.

It's really complicated since there are both network effects and non-linearities due to people picking the best option. You can make a train near worthless by making it 30% slower.

I agree with you. I think that picking 2 close cities is simplest and that Canada should try creating at least 1 "killer" train service. Given our mediocre infrastructure that does not imply building Shinkansen level service. A train with an average speed of 150 km/h would easily do it for cities where most travel right now is car or bus based.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The announcement itself is very disappointing as it is so light on details. But it lines up with our expectations and goes beyond them with the addition of electrification. By the standards of global rail, HFR is mediocre, but that's always what it was going to be and is almost the point. I'd worry more if they committed to making it more expensive than it needs to be, as then it might not get built at all. But by getting the route started, it has a much better chance of getting finished and upgraded later.

I guess what I am disappointed by was the prioritization of electrification over speed. From all those past promo graphics, electrification was about $2B. That $2B would have brought quite a bit of improvement in speed. Could have made Ottawa-Montreal commutable. Would have helped make Montreal-Quebec City truly competitive with air. They could have used it to build a new tunnel in Montreal negating the long detour around the mountain. Now they might not even be able to use their options for Siemens rolling stock to leverage off the great deal they already got.

Is $2B to cut emissions really worthwhile when the train is already so much more efficient than driving or flying? Wouldn't it have been worthwhile using that money to speed the thing up where possible so that they can pull more air passengers on certain sectors?

What's promised is barely getting us back to schedule speeds from the 80s. Better than nothing. I agree. But it still has me sad as a Canadian that we are going to spend billions so that by 2027, we'll be back to the services we had in the 70s or 80s. And what has me even more frustrated is knowing that I have no other political options, because the Liberals are the only ones who might actually deliver something.

[swimmer_spe]

I thought the new fleet would be diesel electrics. Are they able to be bi mode, or will we be looking at getting a new fleet for HFR?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I thought the new fleet would be diesel electrics. Are they able to be bi mode, or will we be looking at getting a new fleet for HFR?

We'll know when the RFP is out in the Fall. The Siemens Chargers can be designed for bi-modal operation. Though, no idea if they have delivered any capable of that. I think they might just pass on exercising their options and just put a new fleet in the RFP. In theory, could just get battery electric trains for the last 10%.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I guess what I am disappointed by was the prioritization of electrification over speed. From all those past promo graphics, electrification was about $2B. That $2B would have brought quite a bit of improvement in speed. Could have made Ottawa-Montreal commutable. Would have helped make Montreal-Quebec City truly competitive with air. They could have used it to build a new tunnel in Montreal negating the long detour around the mountain. Now they might not even be able to use their options for Siemens rolling stock to leverage off the great deal they already got.

Is $2B to cut emissions really worthwhile when the train is already so much more efficient than driving or flying? Wouldn't it have been worthwhile using that money to speed the thing up where possible so that they can pull more air passengers on certain sectors?

What's promised is barely getting us back to schedule speeds from the 80s. Better than nothing. I agree. But it still has me sad as a Canadian that we are going to spend billions so that by 2027, we'll be back to the services we had in the 70s or 80s. And what has me even more frustrated is knowing that I have no other political options, because the Liberals are the only ones who might actually deliver something.

While all that is true, on the bright side, if HFR is indeed the foundation for future incremental upgrades that eventually lead to full HSR, electrification is a great thing to get out of the way since the 200km/h mark seems to be a fairly hard limit on diesel service.

Plus, not only does electrification reduce CO2 emissions, electricity also tends to be a lot cheaper than fossil fuels in Canada so if the infrastructure investment is covered as an upfront government expenditure, the cost savings can then benefit VIA operations over the long term and potentially lead to lower subsidies and/or ticket prices. If it does lead to lower ticket prices, that could act to draw people from other modes as effectively as would extra speed, depending on the magnitude of the speed/cost difference. At the same time, there are also other ways to shift people away from rail. Even if we don't use the brute force approach seen in France where they actually banned short haul flights competing with HSR routes, we could have say, a carbon surcharge on flights serving routes on which there is an alternative HFR option which would both disincentivize flight patronage while building revenue for further rail upgrades .

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I guess what I am disappointed by was the prioritization of electrification over speed. From all those past promo graphics, electrification was about $2B.

OK, that's a fair position. I'm not disappointed though. The CBR calculations must be done over multiple decade timescales and it would make sense that building OHLE from the start puts the project in better financial health long term - they can buy proper EMUs from the start rather than cludging electric locomotives onto unpowered coaches like uncivilized barbarians. And there will be reduced cost from cheaper power and reduced maintenance. The federal government's infinite financial capacity means they can make the upfront investment that pay dividends down the road. Plus, the project can be promoted as green, avoiding the "gotchas" from jawagord and friends that would come if it was diesel powered.

I think you downplay the benefits to the passenger of electrification. It will be faster to some degree just by being electric, the ride will be quieter and nicer, and there will be no disgusting diesel fumes. Plus the presence of the obvious electrical infrastructure will give some intangible benefit, showing that this railway is something different and better than the VIA of the past. And it means CN and CP can never get in the way ever again, as their trains won't fit.

[Truenorth00]

Fair points. I guess the optics and politics matter. And I like the idea is keeping this out of the freight companies paws for good.

And I guess there's more to see when the RFP comes out. Apparently, they gave a budget range of $6-12B:

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/natio...rain-moderne-entre-quebec-et-toronto.php

That would imply they aren't done looking to invest more. Though, a 2030 service date in that article is tempering my enthusiasm. Can't have it all I guess....

[hipster duck]

I was kind of hoping that today's announcement would be accompanied by a public release of the CIB-VIA JPO report but, instead, we got some kind of pre-election stump speech from Omar Alghabra and Francois-Phillippe Champagne that, while vague on details, is probably the least vague aspect of this project so far.

It would have been good to look at the technical details, rather than to speculate on them.

I guess we have to wait for the RFP in the Fall. We still don't have a timeline, including when the RFP will close.

[Truenorth00]

To make thing worse, Radio Canada and La Presse have crazy ideas about bypassing Ottawa. So no idea what the real details are.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Plus the presence of the obvious electrical infrastructure will give some intangible benefit, showing that this railway is something different and better than the VIA of the past. And it means CN and CP can never get in the way ever again, as their trains won't fit.

You are being way to optimistic. If the wires are not high enough for freight train clearances then any crossing of freight lines by passenger lines will have to be grade separated, no matter how little freight traffic there is on a line. There is currently little room to access Central Station without using CN's lines. Are you proposing building new stations, tunnels or fly-overs? Be careful what you wish for.

It might be possible to find a clearance that is suitable for both freight and passenger. The other option is to use dual-mode locomotives such as the Bombardier ALP-45 that Exo is using that eliminates the need for wires all the time.

[Innsertnamehere]

I suspect the electrical infrastructure will be built to allow single stack containers but not double stack - meaning grade separation from the main CN and CP corridors but spur track freight activity can continue, including servicing of industrial customers along the various lines.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

You are being way to optimistic. If the wires are not high enough for freight train clearances then any crossing of freight lines by passenger lines will have to be grade separated, no matter how little freight traffic there is on a line. There is currently little room to access Central Station without using CN's lines. Are you proposing building new stations, tunnels or fly-overs? Be careful what you wish for.

It might be possible to find a clearance that is suitable for both freight and passenger. The other option is to use dual-mode locomotives such as the Bombardier ALP-45 that Exo is using that eliminates the need for wires all the time.

The point of HFR is to separate VIA trains from CP and CN ones. Sharing with GO would probably be OK.

According to the Canadian Rail Atlas GO owns the lines into Toronto, there's six tracks and room for more. Getting from those lines to the line to Peterborough (I think that's the Havelock Subdivision?) might be a little more challenging but harder things have been done. It might require bending over for CP/CN one last time, but then VIA will be free. Yes I am (more accurately, VIA) proposing building new stations, tunnels or flyovers - we don't know what form yet but that's where your $6-$12 billion goes. The money needs to be spent to get something that works.

Bi-modes are a shite compromise and would be a failure of policy.