VIA Rail - Page 163

Truenorth00 · #**3241** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 1:47 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Many people like to argue that buses on quieter routes would give better flexibility due to the fact that some can run express, while others run local. For example, the ONR buses between Toronto and Sudbury/North Bay have a bus that does Toronto - Parry Sound -Sudbury a few times a day, and the more local one with stops all along the way. Can't the Corridor Via trains do the same?

It's not needed for HFR. But is a discussion that will have to happen for HSR.

For now they are right to just keep whatever stations are en route and build what is politically feasible. Even though it is pretty dumb to have hourly train service to towns of 3.5k and 2.5k slowing down the other 300 passengers on the train.

The pushback from Cornwall against HFR is a reminder that cutting service can be a political risk.

swimmer_spe · #**3242** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 1:50 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's not needed for HFR. But is a discussion that will have to happen for HSR.

Why not? It would be the simplest way to speed up the runs between the major cities and still serve local stations.

Truenorth00 · #**3243** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 1:58 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why not? It would be the simplest way to speed up the runs between the major cities and still serve local stations.

Welcome to politics I guess. I doubt most of the residents of these towns even will even use the service substantially. But they'll fight its removal just because of the prestige. The government is best choosing the path of least resistance here to actually get it built. They will have enough headaches selling the Kingston hub service.

Personally, I do think the government should pick one of the two and bypass the other. Casselman seems to have a better catchment with Vars and Limoges within a 20 min radius.

esquire · #**3244** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 2:08 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Many people like to argue that buses on quieter routes would give better flexibility due to the fact that some can run express, while others run local. For example, the ONR buses between Toronto and Sudbury/North Bay have a bus that does Toronto - Parry Sound -Sudbury a few times a day, and the more local one with stops all along the way. Can't the Corridor Via trains do the same?

Look at a VIA timetable. Most already do. The smallest burgs in the corridor with VIA service might only have one train a day out of however many actually stop so that people can get on and off. I think only Dorval, Kingston and maybe Guildwood have access to all Montreal-Toronto trains, which is not unreasonable.

ue · #**3245** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 5:55 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The most direct route between the GTA and Ottawa is to parallel Hwy 7 which is what the Havelock subdivision does. And that is what the HFR proposal is using.

Except that there's no business case without serving Ottawa en route. The metro of 1.4M that is actually VIA's biggest market from Toronto, and the nation's capital. So they traded Ottawa for Kingston.

Kingston really isn't losing anything with the hub they are getting. All the Lakeshore communities will benefit from service that actually originates from Kingston.

There was also no way to build an inter-metro rail service using the Lakeshore corridor given how uncooperative CN was. So repurposing the Havelock sub was the only realistic way to do this.

Yes, that's fair. Technically the HFR route is more direct between Toronto and Ottawa specifically, but I always imagined enhanced rail service in the Corridor essentially having a Toronto-Kingston-Montreal line and a parallel Toronto-Kingston-Ottawa-Montreal line that shares the track except for creating a spur to Ottawa. The only place of decent population along the proposed route is Peterborough, which IMO would be better served by a spur like the GO service already does.

Truenorth00 · #**3246** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 10:16 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ue

Yes, that's fair. Technically the HFR route is more direct between Toronto and Ottawa specifically, but I always imagined enhanced rail service in the Corridor essentially having a Toronto-Kingston-Montreal line and a parallel Toronto-Kingston-Ottawa-Montreal line that shares the track except for creating a spur to Ottawa.

You have to understand the point of HFR. Combining the traffic between from Toronto to Ottawa and Toronto to Montreal, will allow them to boost frequencies to 15 trains per day to both cities, at launch. That's the "high frequency" part. That kind of frequency also means that Ottawa-Montreal becomes commutable. Ditto Peterborough-Toronto and Trois Rivieres to both Montreal and Quebec City. Might even see some ex-urban commuting between Montreal and Quebec City. This is what is game changing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ue

The only place of decent population along the proposed route is Peterborough, which IMO would be better served by a spur like the GO service already does.

That is kind of the point. There is no way to speed up service along the Lakeshore. Aside from freight traffic, if VIA proposed running 15 trains a day that weren't stopping at Coburg, Belleville, etc all those towns would be losing their minds. The only way to do is to not build service there in the first place.

Lakeshore takes a slight cut from 14 to 12 trains a day. But they all start in Kingston and stop at every community along the Lakeshore. So the better timings and more stops should more than make up for it. It should now be possible to commute by VIA from Kingston to Cornwall or from Belleville to Coburg.

Innsertnamehere · #**3247** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 12:20 PM**

I'm sure some Kingston service would continue to run semi-express - It would be unfortunate for Kingston bound trips (what will be most trips on the line) to have to be stuck on a milk run every time.

jamincan · #**3248** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 12:41 PM**

The nice thing about the HFR proposal is that it seem grounded in both the physical reality and political reality. HSR proponents online tend to be dreamers who connect a bunch of dots on a map but don't really take the time to understand the the existing situation on the ground or the political factors that would affect it. Barrie to Orillia stands out as one of those things. It seems plainly obvious and simple to extend service on a map, but it's basically so infeasible as to be impossible.

Truenorth00 · #**3249** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 12:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I'm sure some Kingston service would continue to run semi-express - It would be unfortunate for Kingston bound trips (what will be most trips on the line) to have to be stuck on a milk run every time.

I'm interested to see what the service concept is for the Kingston hub.

I have my doubts on them running lots of express trains though. For one, it's really hard to run fast and share with CN. And for another, the gains of skipping Belleville, Trenton, Coburg and Port Hope is sort of minimal from Kingston compared to potential loss in ridership from those stations.

Simply starting from Kingston is huge. This means no more delays in Kingston itself. And no cascading delays on either side of Kingston. With the integration at Dorval, Kingston residents will be able to get to YUL in 3 hrs. And Kingston becomes a legit exurb for Ottawa and Toronto.

Truenorth00 · #**3250** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 12:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamincan

The nice thing about the HFR proposal is that it seem grounded in both the physical reality and political reality. HSR proponents online tend to be dreamers who connect a bunch of dots on a map but don't really take the time to understand the the existing situation on the ground or the political factors that would affect it.

Exactly. If Trudeau came out today and announced a $15B 300 kph electric HSR between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal, most of the country would have an aneurysm. And the Conservatives would absolutely use it to campaign. It would take 10 years to build and would be cancelled the minute the CPC took power.

A $5B plan that mostly upgrades existing rail lines is much harder to attack. Given that the rolling stock order is already in, they can actually pull off most of it in just one term.

And once they built, it's much easier to push upgrades and extensions. Most of which, will also be possible in a single term.

Innsertnamehere · #**3251** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 12:58 PM**

I mean look at the pains California HSR and even HS2 in the UK have gone through. True HSR projects are extremely expensive and politically challenging. Even in the UK, which has a much larger culture of rail use and much better support for that type of infrastructure project (and economic justification), HS2 faced hurdle after political hurdle before finally starting construction.

California HSR meanwhile has basically become a running joke.

Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal HSR may have been a simpler project than those, but you are kidding yourself if you thought it would ever actually get built in a reasonable time frame.

HFR is a much better project simply because it can happen on a reasonable timeframe. Perhaps in another generation true HSR can happen, building on the base that HFR provides.

Truenorth00 · #**3252** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 1:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

HFR is a much better project simply because it can happen on a reasonable timeframe. Perhaps in another generation true HSR can happen, building on the base that HFR provides.

I don't even think it will take a generation. Once HFR is built, it's easier to campaign on just upgrading segments. For example, let's say they spend $1-2B upgrading Ottawa-Montreal to get it to 70 mins. That also saves 20 mins for all Toronto-Montreal travelers. And it'd be easier to campaign on upgrading Ottawa-Montreal based on commutability.

My money is on Montreal-Trois Rivieres-Quebec City getting upgraded to travel times under 2 hrs within 10 yrs of opening day. Possibly even 1.5 hrs. It's such an important connection socially, politically, etc and 2:20 hrs on HFR would already be very competitive with air.

Once the trains are rolling, it's way too tempting for politicians to resist campaigning on better service and expansion. We see this from other jurisdictions that built HSR. The political support really builds once people start riding it.

Innsertnamehere · #**3253** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 1:33 PM**

yup. HFR can finally prove that rail works in Canada, and perhaps as time goes on it can be upgraded and the model can move be implemented in other locations (Toronto-Windsor, Calgary-Edmonton, Toronto-Niagara Falls, tying in to Amtrak improvements on the Empire Corridor, etc.).

Remember that the HFR model is basically what Amtrak is pursuing south of the border right now in most locations as well. They are making a few upgrades to improve speeds on the Acela, but a lot of the $80 billion in funding or whatever that they are getting is going to go towards implementing HFR type projects across the US.

Acajack · #**3254** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 1:36 PM**

I also think that if this comes to fruition, rail will also become increasingly competitive with driving. Especially if rail travel times go in the opposite direction of those on the highway.

What I mean by that is that I've noticed that due to increased traffic along portions of the routes driving to Montreal and Toronto takes longer than it used to.

You can't do downtown Ottawa to downtown Montreal in 2 hours flat anymore. Unless it's the middle of the night. You always get stuck somewhere along the way. Sometimes in more than one place.

Unless you're a total maniac, Ottawa-Montreal is 2h15 for a fast driver these days, and probably closer to 2h30 for the average person.

Similarly, I've noticed that Ottawa-Toronto takes a good 30-45 minutes longer on average, compared to what it used to take. (And I am not counting exceptional traffic jams here. Just average congestion.)

These are additional winning conditions for faster trains.

TownGuy · #**3255** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 1:38 PM**

Thought this was kind of interesting. Was trying to find ridership for Cobourg and found this little list on Urban Toronto. Presumably these are stations between Toronto and Montreal only? These numbers are from 2014.

To use a much loved SSP line. Cobourg punches above its weight.

J.OT13 · #**3256** Posted **Jul 6, 2021, 1:51 PM**

From the announcement:

Up to 90% of the new service would run on electricity.
Montreal to Quebec could be reduced by as much as 30 minutes.
Toronto to Quebec could be reduced by up to 90 minutes.
Reliability could go up from 57% to 95%.
RFP launch in the Fall.

https://www.cpac.ca/episode?id=ad65f50e-3dcd-41dd-a985-9724a121ef15