Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That's the difference between you and me.

I don't think it was a great decision even by standards of the era. When giving a multi-decade exclusive contract, there should be language accounting for technological change.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.

[SidetrackedSue]

Interesting. I assume you get a bill for LTE data use? How much would an update cost in data? That is a downside of OTA updates that I hadn't heard of before.

No bill for the LTE that connects the car to Tesla. That's free because that's all safety related. After a year, I'll be billed $15/month for the entertainment/browser usage should I decide to do so. We will.

The reason why Tesla has people download from WiFi is to reduce Tesla's LTE cost. But if an update is required for safety reasons, it happens over the LTE system after a few days to make sure all vehicles have the latest critical bug repairs. If it is not critical, the owner either does the update themselves or it waits until the car comes 'home' to a Tesla service centre where the updates occur automatically when a car appears in the garage with an appointment. (So my car didn't connect automatically last week because I didn't have an appointment.)

One could use one's mobile data for some of the updates but the one last month was 6 gigs.

Our cell 'plan' (Koodo prepaid) comes with 250 mb of data each month so that will never be an option for us. It is all we need and only $15 per month plus talk time (which averages out to about $18/month including US talk/text/data add-ons) especially now that we have the browser in the car for looking up stuff, Netflix, YouTube, and streaming music.

Someone asked about Starbucks/McDonalds. On the Model Y, that is an option (it is not an option on some Model 3s without the browser, so I thought I didn't have that option.) But we've all used free WiFi at such places and know it can be slow and unreliable, so that might be a very long download. The updates I do at my son's using his Fibe (but from the driveway,, so outside and ~15' away from the router) take 30 - 40 minutes.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

We keep the car at 70% charged

I forgot to mention this when I previously replied to your post, but you might want to rethink the strategy of only charging to 70%. There is a lot of confusion on what percent to charge your car to, but according to this article on InsideEVs, only charging it to between 50 and 70 percent for an extended period may result in a temporary (it can be fixed) reduction in range. As mentioned in the article, even Elon Musk said in a tweet, "Not worth going below 80% imo. Even 90% is still fine." (when asked "the best nightly SoC for battery longevity").

The thing you don't want to do is keep your battery at 100% for an extended period of time. However, if you are going on a road trip (or otherwise need extended range), by all means charge it to 100% just before leaving to get the maximum range before needing to recharge. Occasionally charging to 100% won't hurt, and, if anything, it will help the Battery Management System (BMS) recalibrate itself.

[CanadaGoose]

ZEV Infrastructure program fund chargers installed and being used in Oakville.

Details about the program:
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficienc...ion-vehicle-infrastructure-program/21876

Article:
https://electricautonomy.ca/2021/02/09/oakville-street-ev-charging/

A downtown makeover proved the perfect opportunity to integrate new charging station infrastructure into the town’s fabric. Coupled with an EV mandate for the local Ford plant and a major order for electric city buses, Oakville is embracing a zero-emission future

Canadian municipalities looking for a case study in integrated, smart urban planning for electric vehicle infrastructure have a new example to emulate: Oakville, Ont.

Situated 40 kilometres west of Toronto, Oakville has spent two years and $20 million revitalizing the town’s main street. One of the driving goals was to make the urban centre EV-friendly through the installation of 16 Level 2 chargers with two designated parking spots per station.

The main street project, in turn, is part of a larger municipality-wide initiative. In total, there are now 23 dual public charging stations across Oakville. The chargers were supplied by ChargePoint and are funded by a $220,000 grant as part of the federal government’s Zero Emission Vehicle Infrastructure Program.

“We looked at current EV ownership, but also focused on how we could promote increased adoption of EVs in the community in the future. A significant amount of residents could not confidently locate EV charging stations in Oakville before the project,” writes Michelle Tadique, senior communications advisor for the Town of Oakville, in an email to Electric Autonomy Canada.

“The upgrade to Oakville’s infrastructure will ensure that more residents in our community can drive and charge their electric vehicles more seamlessly”

Anita Anand, Member of Parliament for Oakville
Integrated streetscape

The main street scheme originated with a recognition that necessary roadworks presented a prime opportunity to integrate the charging technology into the streetscape.


“Curbside EV stations were identified publicly as a planned component of the Lakeshore Road project as early as December 2017,” writes Tadique. “The reconstruction of Lakeshore provided the opportunity to install the EV charging infrastructure and stations on Lakeshore Road itself, including addressing any needed upgrades to power supply.”

Oakville EV charger
The value of that foresight can be seen in the growth in EV purchases in Oakville since. In 2019, Ministry of Transport data showed a total of 1,811 battery electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles were registered in the community, more than double the amount in 2017. In fact, the community now has one of the highest levels of EV ownership in Ontario.

The planning effort also has enthusiastic support from Oakville MP Anita Anand, its champion on Parliament Hill.

“I understand the importance of building infrastructure to better support the use of zero emission vehicles — my family drives one,” writes Anand in a statement to Electric Autonomy Canada. “The upgrade to Oakville’s infrastructure will ensure that more residents in our community can drive and charge their electric vehicles more seamlessly.”

A bigger story

The new chargers aren’t the only exciting EV news to come out of Oakville lately. Last summer, the town announced that it is purchasing 57 electric buses to be delivered through 2026. And in September, automaker Ford Canada and the union Unifor struck a deal that will see Ford’s Oakville plant upgraded to produce five electric vehicle models starting in 2025.


“Our Oakville community is committed to being a part of Canada’s clean energy future,” says Anand. “Our government continues to support green infrastructure projects that will make the adoption of zero-emission vehicles easier for Canadians in the transition to a low-carbon future. Investments in sustainable transportation are critical to building healthy, sustainable communities where we can all thrive.”

---
my comments:
- surprised that the city of Ottawa only applied for 26 Level 2 chargers, considering that universities and cities like Hamilton applied for more and got the $$.

[Truenorth00]

This thread gains a whole new importance with the government announcing a ban on gas and diesel light duty vehicles sales beyond 2035.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This thread gains a whole new importance with the government announcing a ban on gas and diesel light duty vehicles sales beyond 2035.

EVs are coming whether people like it or not. I am going to upgrade my electrical service at home to 200 Amps very soon. I was talking to a guy from Hydro Ottawa recently and he said there may be issues in some neighbourhoods where not everyone who wants it will be able to get 200 Amps. You don't need it really unless you plan to charge 2 EVs.....which I expect to in the next couple years. Currently with 100 Amps I can comfortably charge my Tesla (32A) as well as run air conditioner and pool pump. One more heavy draw appliance and we are getting dangerously close to the max!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

EVs are coming whether people like it or not. I am going to upgrade my electrical service at home to 200 Amps very soon. I was talking to a guy from Hydro Ottawa recently and he said there may be issues in some neighbourhoods where not everyone who wants it will be able to get 200 Amps. You don't need it really unless you plan to charge 2 EVs.....which I expect to in the next couple years. Currently with 100 Amps I can comfortably charge my Tesla (32A) as well as run air conditioner and pool pump. One more heavy draw appliance and we are getting dangerously close to the max!

Even then, most people could fully charge both vehicles overnight with a 100A service by having the "chargers" inteligently share the same cirucuit (a feature many charging adapters support). Also, using something like the myenergi Zappi (avaialble in the UK), which can measure the total currnet draw of the home to limit the charging rate when you are approaching your service's limit, could also help when your service is nearing capacity.

[CanadaGoose]

100 amp service, will still let you run a Tesla, leaf, hyundai kona, etc, etc.

But if you want a Ford F150 lightning, you'll probably need an upgrade to your garage to fit your new ride and maybe an 200amp service, if you want the car charged from empty to full over night.

---

Ottawa on-street EV stations are still happening. From what I hear, it will be Fall 2021.

Gatineau side, there's a grant under Circuit Electrique for 4500 curb side stations all over Quebec. I assume Gatineau will apply for at least some (hopefully, 200-300). https://lecircuitelectrique.com/en/4500-program/

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2035 is a really big goal, I dont think they will make it due to electrical capacity in remote communities (remote as in Cochrane or Fort McMurrary, not Brockville).
But, they could possibly make about 80% of vehicles electric by then.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

(remote as in Cochrane or Fort McMurrary, not Brockville).

I was in Prescott the other night and walked past a street-parked Tesla on an extension cord which ran over the sidewalk, through a garden, down a slope, to an outside outlet in the unopened Lighthouse visitor centre.

I had been interested that there were no public chargers in Brockville, so when I saw someone plugged in at Prescott I wondered if I had missed something... Nope.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

But if you want a Ford F150 lightning, you'll probably need an upgrade to your garage to fit your new ride and maybe an 200amp service, if you want the car charged from empty to full over night.

How many folks really need that capability though? For the average commuter, a regular wall outlet would be just fine. Even with an F150.

Rough math. Let's say the F150 does 2 km / kWh (say a conservative winter estimate). And 30 km commute each way. Toss in 20% for errands and weekend drives. That's 180 kWh / week. With a 1.8 kW outlet that's 100 hrs plugged in. 14.3 hrs per day. Any less time than that, or higher usage might just require a supplemental fast charger session.

It comes down to a convenience thing. 1.8 kW from a wall outlet means that a regular commuter would basically have to be plugged in most of the time at home. And that might be annoying.

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

2035 is a really big goal, I dont think they will make it due to electrical capacity in remote communities (remote as in Cochrane or Fort McMurrary, not Brockville).
But, they could possibly make about 80% of vehicles electric by then.

It's 100% of sales by 2035. Not 100% of vehicles on the road. Realistically, half the cars on the road will still be using gas or diesel then.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How many folks really need that capability though? For the average commuter, a regular wall outlet would be just fine. Even with an F150.

It really all depends on the person's use case. If it is a status truck, then you are right. If it is a work truck, they may use more power on a daily basis. The key is knowing what you need and getting a charging solution that is sufficient.

The wildcard with the F150 Lightning is its V2H capabilities. To have it power your home, you will need to have a more robust charging solution to allow the truck to feed enough power backwards to run your home in an blackout.

Rough math. Let's say the F150 does 2 km / kWh (say a conservative winter estimate). And 30 km commute each way. Toss in 20% for errands and weekend drives. That's 180 kWh / week. With a 1.8 kW outlet that's 100 hrs plugged in. 14.3 hrs per day. Any less time than that, or higher usage might just require a supplemental fast charger session.

It comes down to a convenience thing. 1.8 kW from a wall outlet means that a regular commuter would basically have to be plugged in most of the time at home. And that might be annoying.

One issue with your math is a standard 15A circuit can only provide a maximum of 12A continually (i.e. for more than 3 hours straight), so a standard Level 1 EVSE maxes out at 1.4 kW. A 20A 120V circuit could provide 16A continuously and thus provide 1.9kW, but 20A outdoor circuits aren't common and neither are 1.9kW EVSEs.

Optimally you should have a dedicated circuit where you regularly charge your vehicle to ensure nothing else is plugged in while you are charging (I have tripped a breaker once by charging on the same circuit as 3 incandescent bulbs and once when on the same circuit as a vacuum cleaner), and if you are going to that trouble, you might as well put in a 240V circuit (even if it is only 15A) if at all possible.

It's 100% of sales by 2035. Not 100% of vehicles on the road. Realistically, half the cars on the road will still be using gas or diesel then.

For sure. Given that the median car life expectancy in Ottawa is probably somewhere around 10 to 12 years, unless something happens to encourage people to retire their ICEVs early, it probably won't be until about 2045 that the vast majority of cars one the road are fully electric.

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

I was in Prescott the other night and walked past a street-parked Tesla on an extension cord which ran over the sidewalk, through a garden, down a slope, to an outside outlet in the unopened Lighthouse visitor centre.

I had been interested that there were no public chargers in Brockville, so when I saw someone plugged in at Prescott I wondered if I had missed something... Nope.

With a ChaDeMo adapter, the tesla could fast charge in Brockville and Prescott.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It really all depends on the person's use case.

It does. My point wasn't to get into the details of any specific deployment. Just to say that I think for the typical commuter, I think a regular outlet is pretty decent. The odd supplemental fast charging might be necessary. But it's manageable. And I think that's an important message to get out to potential buyers. If they start thinking that they must have panel and outlet upgrades to get an EV, that could hurt the cause.

Originally Posted by roger1818

If it is a status truck, then you are right. If it is a work truck, they may use more power on a daily basis. The key is knowing what you need and getting a charging solution that is sufficient.

The wildcard with the F150 Lightning is its V2H capabilities. To have it power your home, you will need to have a more robust charging solution to allow the truck to feed enough power backwards to run your home in an blackout.

If it's a work truck, they aren't a commuter. So they most definitely need a much more substantial charging solution. It's not the same use case. Ditto for the use case of a vehicle being used as a backup power system. At that point, it's not just about charging your car.

Originally Posted by roger1818

One issue with your math is a standard 15A circuit can only provide a maximum of 12A continually (i.e. for more than 3 hours straight), so a standard Level 1 EVSE maxes out at 1.4 kW. A 20A 120V circuit could provide 16A continuously and thus provide 1.9kW, but 20A outdoor circuits aren't common and neither are 1.9kW EVSEs.

Fair point. I ran the math again using 2 km/kWh, 180 kWh/wk and 1.3 kW charging. That is 19.78 hrs/day. So that probably wouldn't work without L2 or supplemental fast charging. So I'm going to guess the math for using a regular outlet only works on smaller vehicles (getting > 3 km/kWh) and less mileage per week, so that usage is down to 90 kWh/wk (10 hrs plugged in per day average).

Originally Posted by roger1818

Optimally you should have a dedicated circuit where you regularly charge your vehicle to ensure nothing else is plugged in while you are charging (I have tripped a breaker once by charging on the same circuit as 3 incandescent bulbs and once when on the same circuit as a vacuum cleaner), and if you are going to that trouble, you might as well put in a 240V circuit (even if it is only 15A) if at all possible.

Fair point. I'm just wondering if somebody is a light driver, couldn't they just setup to charge at night, when they won't be running lights and the vacuum? In theory, something like 11pm-6am would yield 9 kWh. Should be enough for a 27 km roundtrip commute. Statistically, that should actually cover a ton of commuters.

Originally Posted by roger1818

For sure. Given that the median car life expectancy in Ottawa is probably somewhere around 10 to 12 years, unless something happens to encourage people to retire their ICEVs early, it probably won't be until about 2045 that the vast majority of cars one the road are fully electric.

It'll be interesting to see. It's such a dynamic situation. On one hand EVs are getting cheaper. On the other hand, the ever rising carbon tax is making gas more expensive. The $170/tonne rate in 2030 pretty much guarantees that even a litre of regular will be ~$1.8/L in 2030, absent some large collapse in oil prices. Meanwhile if BNEF is right and batteries are down to $58/kWh in 2030, EV will be as our more profitable for the OEMs than gas cars later this decade. At that point, I don't know why automakers wouldn't push EVs themselves.

I'm curious to see how much we keep raising the carbon tax beyond 2030, and if the rising rates drive an Osborne effect later this decade, where car buyers simply put off buying a new car until an EV they like and can afford, is in reach. Certainly the awareness of rising fuel costs should drive the behaviour. In theory the rising fuel prices and cheaper EVs should see the majority of the cars on the road flipped much earlier. Closer to 2035, than 2045.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It does. My point wasn't to get into the details of any specific deployment. Just to say that I think for the typical commuter, I think a regular outlet is pretty decent. The odd supplemental fast charging might be necessary. But it's manageable.

Some people can make Level 1 charging work for their lifestyle, but it isn't for everyone and it often does result in compromises.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And I think that's an important message to get out to potential buyers. If they start thinking that they must have panel and outlet upgrades to get an EV, that could hurt the cause.

First of all, most people do not need a panel upgrade to add Level 2 EV charging and for those who are cutting it close, there are technologies available that can limit charging when your panel would otherwise be over capacity. As for the cost of installing a dedicated circuit of some type, that should be the focus of government subsidies instead of vehicle rebates. Ensuring that anyone with an BEV can charge at home (regardless of the type of housing and parking) should be a priority.

If it's a work truck, they aren't a commuter. So they most definitely need a much more substantial charging solution. It's not the same use case. Ditto for the use case of a vehicle being used as a backup power system. At that point, it's not just about charging your car.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Fair point. I'm just wondering if somebody is a light driver, couldn't they just setup to charge at night, when they won't be running lights and the vacuum? In theory, something like 11pm-6am would yield 9 kWh. Should be enough for a 27 km roundtrip commute. Statistically, that should actually cover a ton of commuters.

For sure many people could make it work, especially people who are retired or frequently WFH. Having the option to charge at work could also help.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It'll be interesting to see. It's such a dynamic situation. On one hand EVs are getting cheaper. On the other hand, the ever rising carbon tax is making gas more expensive. The $170/tonne rate in 2030 pretty much guarantees that even a litre of regular will be ~$1.8/L in 2030, absent some large collapse in oil prices. Meanwhile if BNEF is right and batteries are down to $58/kWh in 2030, EV will be as our more profitable for the OEMs than gas cars later this decade. At that point, I don't know why automakers wouldn't push EVs themselves.

I suspect that is why we are starting to see automakers that were previously hesitant to make BEVs start ramping up their EV plans. Having said that, shutting down ICV production will be expensive. For example, a significant proportion of their workforce designs and builds engines, and those skills are not readily transferable to electric motors design and manufacture (not to mention the expensive equipment used to manufacture engines that will need to be retired). Limiting those costs through attrition is a lot cheaper than layoffs and retraining.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm curious to see how much we keep raising the carbon tax beyond 2030, and if the rising rates drive an Osborne effect later this decade, where car buyers simply put off buying a new car until an EV they like and can afford, is in reach. Certainly the awareness of rising fuel costs should drive the behaviour. In theory the rising fuel prices and cheaper EVs should see the majority of the cars on the road flipped much earlier. Closer to 2035, than 2045.

It will be interesting to see what happens. The one thing that concerns me is that a significant proportion of the population can't afford to buy new cars and are dependant on the availability of affordable used cars. There will be a period where there won't be enough used EVs available to meet demand (and keep prices down), but ICEVs will be expensive to operate, pushing those who are disadvantaged even further into poverty. While some could go car free, many require a car for various reasons.

[Tesladom]

All you need is 20AMP 240v for an electric car.
Too much emphasis on "0 to full" speed, with 20AMP you should get 300km of range charged overnight which is MORE THAN ENOUGH! You never discharge to nor, and hardly ever charger to 100%
I get really upset with this, people overprovision their need to charging. Been driving electric for 3+ years. If I were to get a 2nd EV I would not even bother with a second charger, I would trickle charge it if required, but likely just alternate every other day. y setup is 30A rated (24Aload) and its more than plenty

In a Condo, a 100AMP 240v circuit would be enough to charge 10 vehicles in load balancing configuration

F150 with V2H is a different story, but would only be beneficial for people in rural areas where power outages are frequent, I presume V2H infrastructure and setup cost would be at least $2-3k. The Ford is flawed because as opposed to finding efficiencies in aero, weight and friction, they are relying on a bigger battery (totally inefficient and expensive)

[Truenorth00]

I think the bigger issue for cities is getting the public charging infrastructure up to snuff.

Starting with taxis. I am sort of always surprised we don't mandate that taxis all go electric by 2025. And we should build chargers near a few taxi stands to let them charge up.

After that, I think there needs to be a plan to provide charging at malls and grocery stores. Especially since there's still no real discussion of broadly rewiring the 5M+ multi-unit dwellings that already exist in the country.

[Tesladom]

Instead of wasting time on malls, we should create better policies to incentivize charging infrastructure for multi-tenant dwellings and on-street parking. I saw some posts that people are being gauged $10k by condo boards to set up EV charging, total BS.
There is no need (or very little) for charging infrastructure at malls and stores, first off, the charge rates are too slow, they are unreliable and they are sometimes full.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

All you need is 20AMP 240v for an electric car.
Too much emphasis on "0 to full" speed, with 20AMP you should get 300km of range charged overnight which is MORE THAN ENOUGH! You never discharge to nor, and hardly ever charger to 100%
I get really upset with this, people overprovision their need to charging.

I tend to agree. I have Flo X5 (30A Max on a 40A circuit) and have it programmed to not charge during the day, limit charging to 6A between 7pm and midnight and 30A between midnight and 7am to delay and when I do plug it in (I don't bother if it is over 50% unless I think I will need the range the next day), it always finishes charging well before I even wake up.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Been driving electric for 3+ years. If I were to get a 2nd EV I would not even bother with a second charger, I would trickle charge it if required, but likely just alternate every other day. y setup is 30A rated (24Aload) and its more than plenty

If I got a second BEV, I would probably put a second X5 on the same circuit (they will load share) just for convenience, but I could likely share my existing one and use trickle charging when I want to charge both at the same time.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

In a Condo, a 100AMP 240v circuit would be enough to charge 10 vehicles in load balancing configuration

Most condos and apartments have 208V 3-phase power (units get 2 of the three phases). This actually makes things easier for a large EV charging deployment as you could likely charge 24 vehicles off of a 100A 3-phase circuit (8 off each pair). This means you can run 1 piece of 3 wire to the closest vehicle in the zone and then branch out from there.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

The Ford is flawed because as opposed to finding efficiencies in aero, weight and friction, they are relying on a bigger battery (totally inefficient and expensive)

From an maximum efficiency perspective, you are correct; however, most of their customers want their truck to look like a truck, not a fancy door stop. There certainly will be a market for the Cybertruck, but I think the F150 Lightning (and the Rivian R1T) will sell very well. The F150 is the best selling vehicle in North America for a reason.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think the bigger issue for cities is getting the public charging infrastructure up to snuff.

Starting with taxis. I am sort of always surprised we don't mandate that taxis all go electric by 2025. And we should build chargers near a few taxi stands to let them charge up.

Taxies and other fleet vehicles should definitely be a priority. For taxies, wireless charging will be a game changer. By putting wireless charging at taxi stands would allow them to grab some charge automatically, every time they are waiting for a fare. Wireless charring become especially valuable when there is a taxi queue, like at the airport or train station.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

After that, I think there needs to be a plan to provide charging at malls and grocery stores. Especially since there's still no real discussion of broadly rewiring the 5M+ multi-unit dwellings that already exist in the country.

Just because there hasn't been a discussion on broadly rewiring existing multi-unit dwellings, doesn't mean there shouldn't be a discussion on it. It is still early days, but we need to get on it soon.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Just because there hasn't been a discussion on broadly rewiring existing multi-unit dwellings, doesn't mean there shouldn't be a discussion on it. It is still early days, but we need to get on it soon.

There should be discussion on it. That's true. But really there isn't. So we are in a situation that absent any real plans, they won't have options. Meanwhile OEMs are actually going to start dialing back ICEV offerings beyond 2025. So the only realistic way to rapidly scale up some infrastructure is the some investment at places where most people congregate regularly.