OC Transpo

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm kinda leaning the other way. Whatever BRT is left is outside the downtown core and boarding times matter less and capacity more. I'd argue that they should keep the DDs and get rid of the artics.

Boarding times matter.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But yeah none of this makes Ottawa a "green capital" in the way that most of us would imagine.

I have no idea what that way is supposed to be.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Re double decker safety, I'm not sure driving a bus into a moving train or a station really tells us much. Do we have any data around normal vehicle-vehicle collisions? We really don't know how other buses would have performed in those two exceptional scenarios but general traffic accidents would be telling.

I.e. An articulated bus doesn't have the passengers in the front, but it's possible that in the via collision it would have jackknifed into the train, which may or may not have been worse for the passengers

I was determined that the bus driver in Barrhaven was distracted by the tv screen monitoring the upper deck. Even if that was not the case, the driver would have been the only person facing certain death. A jackknifing artic would have thrown people around, but would likely not have caused as much harm.

For Westbro, we've seen quite a few regular buses crash in stations in the past. They got wedged under the canopy with only minor injuries to passengers/drivers. In both the case of a DD or regular height buses, the canopy saves people on the platform from being plowed over. Had we had bollards instead, I imagine the general impact on occupants would be the same in any case.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Boarding times matter.

At places outside the downtown core? DDs still give you two doors.

So the question is, what's more valuable? 30 more seats or a third door, on those suburban routes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

For Westbro, we've seen quite a few regular buses crash in stations in the past. They got wedged under the canopy with only minor injuries to passengers/drivers. In both the case of a DD or regular height buses, the canopy saves people on the platform from being plowed over. Had we had bollards instead, I imagine the general impact on occupants would be the same in any case.

How relevant is this with all that infrastructure being changed over with the LRT?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How relevant is this with all that infrastructure being changed over with the LRT?

The South-East Transitway, Bayshore and Place d'Orleans will all continue to feature the original Transitway station designs.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The South-East Transitway, Bayshore and Place d'Orleans will all continue to feature the original Transitway station designs.

Good point. In that case, I'm surprised that DDs are still on their bus fleet forecast.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Good point. In that case, I'm surprised that DDs are still on their bus fleet forecast.

Bayshore doesn't have the overhang, place dorleans is a circular so low speeds. The south east does have them but meh,

As for why to keep them, the city will continue to have BRT routes as well as long high demand local routes and there useful for them.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

As for why to keep them, the city will continue to have BRT routes as well as long high demand local routes and there useful for them.

This way my reasoning as well. I think they work better for a lot of routes not going to the downtown core, which have ridership but not the ridership density that drives boarding times.

For places inside the Greenbelt, like Vanier, I can see that artics might be better, because you need more doors to keep boarding times reasonable.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

Bayshore doesn't have the overhang, place dorleans is a circular so low speeds. The south east does have them but meh,

As for why to keep them, the city will continue to have BRT routes as well as long high demand local routes and there useful for them.

Forgot Bayshore has a different design with no canopy, and you're right that Place d'Orleans' slower speeds reduce the risk, though rogue buses due to mechanical issues or medical emergencies could happen.

If DDs are exclusively used along suburban routes to get people to the ends of the O-Train network, the risk again is reduced. I can't imagine the S/E Transitway needs DDs as much as the outer-Greenbelt suburbs, so they could be eliminated from those routes.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Boarding times matter.

I totally agree. My experience with DDs is that their dwell time at stops is much too long. If we want transit to rebound post-covid, we need to consider all ways to speed up service.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Uf DDs are exclusively used along suburban routes to get people to the ends of the O-Train network, the risk again is reduced. I can't imagine the S/E Transitway needs DDs as much as the outer-Greenbelt suburbs, so they could be eliminated from those routes.

I would imagine artics would be used along the SE Transitway because boarding times matter a lot more on the Transitway than some random suburban stop.

I imagine the best places for DDs will be Kanata and Stittsville post Stage 2. Lots of seating capacity. Not as much standing room. Long drive to Moodie.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would imagine artics would be used along the SE Transitway because boarding times matter a lot more on the Transitway than some random suburban stop.

If the South Orleans, Baseline and Kanata North busways get built, I would add them to the list. Also many of the heavily used “Frequent” routes with frequent stops would benefit from artics for the shorter dwell times and higher overall capacity (combined sitting and standing).

I imagine the best places for DDs will be Kanata and Stittsville post Stage 2. Lots of seating capacity. Not as much standing room. Long drive to Moodie.

I would add Barrhaven to the list with the long drive up Woodruff. I imagine both Algonquin and Moodie stations will have limited curb space issues, so shorter DD buses will be helpful until Stage 3.

I don’t understand the debate between DD and artic buses. Both have their uses.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don’t understand the debate between DD and artic buses. Both have their uses.

I think a lot of people don't get the tradeoffs on each and think we could get rid of one or the other.

Thought to be fair, I think post Stage 2, OC Transpo has a lot of room to boost frequencies and replace DDs and artics with just a lot more buses. But if they don't do that, then there are some clear applications where a specific type might be better.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think a lot of people don't get the tradeoffs on each and think we could get rid of one or the other.

Thought to be fair, I think post Stage 2, OC Transpo has a lot of room to boost frequencies and replace DDs and artics with just a lot more buses. But if they don't do that, then there are some clear applications where a specific type might be better.

An odd thing about DD dwell time in my experience. It's much worse then Artics when somewhat crowded, but better when really jam packed. On Artics people always crowd the doors, and when really full the bus often opens and closes it's doors several times before people move in enough for it to leave. I much preferred the DDs for my homeward bound commute because they generally could take all the people in one go. Of course on a milk run like the 6 it's never was crowded enough to justify them, and the bus stops what feels like every 10 feet so that boarding time really adds up.

[Truenorth00]

This is a really good point. I'm been on buses where they do the door closing stutter. It's annoying. And I guess time consuming.

I think what's unique in Ottawa is the there are some routes that are more akin to a GO route in the GTA. Makes sense they use DDs.

In general though I look at most of the Ottawa be schedules and I just fine get why we have higher capacity buses. It's not like our rush hour frequencies are that high. And post Stage 2, the demand for higher capacity buses should be even lower. In Toronto, you don't tend to see artics outside of very busy avenue routes. Those are routes often running at 5-10 min headways at peak. There's nothing in Ottawa like that.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

An odd thing about DD dwell time in my experience. It's much worse then Artics when somewhat crowded, but better when really jam packed. On Artics people always crowd the doors, and when really full the bus often opens and closes it's doors several times before people move in enough for it to leave. I much preferred the DDs for my homeward bound commute because they generally could take all the people in one go. Of course on a milk run like the 6 it's never was crowded enough to justify them, and the bus stops what feels like every 10 feet so that boarding time really adds up.

I've used DD in London on long high demand high stop local routes and for the most part they worked. Allowed the long distance use to sit up top while the short distance users could stand at bottom.

The issue I've found in Ottawa, and this applies just as much to arctics and the trains. People don't like standing, and they really don't like pre-planning there next action. Means narrow aisle buses/trains and people having to exit from their seat at top or far from the door, causing large dwell times.

OC can try a public education campaign but that didn't go do well with the doors.

So yeah, they have there use still and always will and others nations have shown that they can be useful, but there not needed for everything

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

At places outside the downtown core? DDs still give you two doors.

But they also have the stairs to contend with once the lower level fills up (or some audiences prefer to hike upstairs right away.)

The additional boarding dwell on the DDs vs. artics is quite noticeable at the busier stops and times along routes 6 and 7 when they run DDs on them.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

But they also have the stairs to contend with once the lower level fills up (or some audiences prefer to hike upstairs right away.)

The additional boarding dwell on the DDs vs. artics is quite noticeable at the busier stops and times along routes 6 and 7 when they run DDs on them.

I am curious, what your definition of “the downtown core” is if you think routes 6 and 7 avoid it?

[TransitZilla]

And seemingly just on cue, just yesterday Alexander Dennis announced the BEB version of its North American DD model.

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/media/n...he-enviro500ev-charge-for-north-america/