OC Transpo

[OCCheetos]

The full report being presented to Transit Commission is now available here.

The report covers all of the different alternatives including CNG, Hydrogen, and Trolleybuses.

In particular, Trolleybuses were rejected due to their "limited applicability" in Ottawa, as well as the height restrictions they introduce.

I think another point against trolleybuses is that OC Transpo's garages aren't really laid out in any way to enable them. From the report, only St. Laurent is being upgraded to handle electric buses and it's nowhere near any of the applicable corridors, not that any of the other garages are located any better. e.g. to have trolleybuses on Baseline would require upgrading the Merivale garage, and that's still a 3km deadhead to Baseline.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The full report being presented to Transit Commission is now available here.

The report covers all of the different alternatives including CNG, Hydrogen, and Trolleybuses.

In particular, Trolleybuses were rejected due to their "limited applicability" in Ottawa, as well as the height restrictions they introduce.

I think another point against trolleybuses is that OC Transpo's garages aren't really laid out in any way to enable them. From the report, only St. Laurent is being upgraded to handle electric buses and it's nowhere near any of the applicable corridors, not that any of the other garages are located any better. e.g. to have trolleybuses on Baseline would require upgrading the Merivale garage, and that's still a 3km deadhead to Baseline.

Thanks for posting. The arguments against trolley buses make a lot of sense. I'm pretty satisfied with that.

[J.OT13]

Posted on RailFans Discord. Article from 1983 I believe.



Advantages of BRT: individual segments can be built and benefited from without the entire system. Counter-argument: You end up with a fractured system with major service gaps that will never be dealt with due to cost.

Also, Albert was to be a transit mall, as opposed to using Albert and Slater for bus lanes.

Interesting to see escalators were in the plans at the time. None were included along the Transitway AFAIK.

Hurdman before S/E Transitway.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

For those who may want a conversation on Trolley buses. The City seems to have decided immediately on battery-electric. There's never been any mention of trolley buses as a possible solution to our transit emissions.

There really isn't much of a case for trolleybuses anymore now that batteries are going down in price substantially. Are there any cities that have built a whole new trolleybus network in the last decade? Mostly they seem to be existing networks expanding.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The required infrastructure costs are substantially skewing the per BEB figure.

Agreed! Much of the infrastructure required for charging will last for many generations of buses.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Agreed! Much of the infrastructure required for charging will last for many generations of buses.

This is further detailed in the report where they explain the fixed infrastructure that OC Transpo and Hydro Ottawa have to take to make their facilities capable of handling electric buses.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The full report being presented to Transit Commission is now available here.

Thanks for posting this.

What I find most interesting is that this project/phase is targeted at electrification of the 40' fleet. They seem to be saving the double deckers and articulated buses for later. I'm really curious how many DDs and artics they actually need after Stage 2. Seems to me we might be better off maintaining the same fleet size and boosting frequencies. 40' buses would be enough for that.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Thanks for posting this.

What I find most interesting is that this project/phase is targeted at electrification of the 40' fleet. They seem to be saving the double deckers and articulated buses for later. I'm really curious how many DDs and artics they actually need after Stage 2. Seems to me we might be better off maintaining the same fleet size and boosting frequencies. 40' buses would be enough for that.

The report includes a table breaking down the types of buses that need replacement:



66 articulated buses need replacement by 2024 with a whole bunch after that.

I think it's reasonable to expect a portion of the fleet to still be made up of articulated buses to serve the various BRT projects that will hopefully be in service within the 2024-2027 time range (wishful thinking? ), but otherwise I agree with 40' buses being enough and that frequencies should be a priority.

Overall they should really just ditch the double deckers in my opinion.

Edit: this is the relevant excerpt:

As noted earlier, minibuses for Para Transpo service and high-capacity, long-range
double-decker and 60-foot articulated buses are not yet widely available or tested to
meet the operating requirements for Ottawa. Staff will continue to engage with
potential suppliers, other transit agencies, and transit industry associations to follow
emerging trends and to develop recommendations for the consideration of the
Transit Commission and Council. Some options to be considered for high-capacity
buses may include purchasing shorter-range buses with on-route charging for
operation on major Transitway routes, a two-part procurement allowing
manufacturers to bid with either diesel or zero-emission buses, or changing the fleet
composition to use more 40-foot buses and fewer high-capacity buses. Options for
Para Transpo minibuses will depend on developments in the market

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Posted on RailFans Discord. Article from 1983 I believe.



Advantages of BRT: individual segments can be built and benefited from without the entire system. Counter-argument: You end up with a fractured system with major service gaps that will never be dealt with due to cost.

Also, Albert was to be a transit mall, as opposed to using Albert and Slater for bus lanes.

Interesting to see escalators were in the plans at the time. None were included along the Transitway AFAIK.

Neat tidbit in that article that I never knew before: the Transitway segment along Nicholas & Waller was a political addition to the scope due to the resistance to the original King Edward/Wilbrod route. I think we can all agree this is an instance where the right decision was made!

Re: escalators- weren't there some at Lincoln Fields and St Laurent? (Though I might be wrong about LF). And Mackenzie King (though that station was built much later).

Super pumped about the electric buses. Will be interesting to see what is available in 2026/2027 when artics and DDs are due for replacement. I know New Flyer makes battery-electric artics, but I'm not sure there are any BEB DD's currently on the market.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I'm not sure there are any BEB DD's currently on the market.

• Video Link

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Overall they should really just ditch the double deckers in my opinion.

I'm kinda leaning the other way. Whatever BRT is left is outside the downtown core and boarding times matter less and capacity more. I'd argue that they should keep the DDs and get rid of the artics.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm kinda leaning the other way. Whatever BRT is left is outside the downtown core and boarding times matter less and capacity more. I'd argue that they should keep the DDs and get rid of the artics.

The one advantage artics might provide as part of the fleet mix is longer bus length = more room for batteries = longer range for the few longer distance routes OC will still have in 2036, like the 83? (whatever the old 118 is called nowadays) and the rural routes to North Gower, Munster, Vars, etc.

But if the bus operating costs for DDs are the same as artics, why give up those 25 extra seats in most cases?

Can't wait to see the first electric bus hit the streets.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Neat tidbit in that article that I never knew before: the Transitway segment along Nicholas & Waller was a political addition to the scope due to the resistance to the original King Edward/Wilbrod route. I think we can all agree this is an instance where the right decision was made!

Re: escalators- weren't there some at Lincoln Fields and St Laurent? (Though I might be wrong about LF). And Mackenzie King (though that station was built much later).

Super pumped about the electric buses. Will be interesting to see what is available in 2026/2027 when artics and DDs are due for replacement. I know New Flyer makes battery-electric artics, but I'm not sure there are any BEB DD's currently on the market.

For sure, the addition of the Transitway between Lees and Laurier was a good move. Made for better access to the canal and easier transition to rail.

You're right, escalators were present at St. Laurent and (still) Mackenzie. Those escaped my mind. Not sure about L.F. I've never really used that station myself.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm kinda leaning the other way. Whatever BRT is left is outside the downtown core and boarding times matter less and capacity more. I'd argue that they should keep the DDs and get rid of the artics.

The two bus crashes placed a major damper on my enthusiasm for DDs. Yes, they take up less space, yet provide more capacity for long distance routes and great views from the upper deck, but there's a clear inherent danger not present with other bus types.

[J.OT13]

This new deal with the Canada Infrastructure Bank to convert about half the fleet by 2027 and the entire fleet to battery-electric by 2036 is an excellent legacy for John Manconi. He's had some tough years bearing the brunt of criticism for O-Train related issues, much of it undeserved (but some deserved for sure), so closing off his career with such a big move to a modern zero emission bus network is a good way to leave things.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The one advantage artics might provide as part of the fleet mix is longer bus length = more room for batteries = longer range for the few longer distance routes OC will still have in 2036, like the 83? (whatever the old 118 is called nowadays) and the rural routes to North Gower, Munster, Vars, etc.

I wonder if the length helps because I have doubts about the battery pack being placed in the rear section. As energy density improves in the coming years, this is even less likely.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

But if the bus operating costs for DDs are the same as artics, why give up those 25 extra seats in most cases?

I have always wondered whether the artics cost more to maintain because of the articulation mechanisms.

As for capacity, the double deckers seat a lot more. According to cptdb, the artics seat 55-60 pax and the double deckers seat 80-86. And if you see the video above, the electric ADLs, have even more since they they don't have a fuel tank taking space. I think the artics are more useful for busy routes which require shorter boarding times at each stop, and more standing room. The double deckers seem to be more useful on longer commuter routes with fewer boardings and standees.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The two bus crashes placed a major damper on my enthusiasm for DDs. Yes, they take up less space, yet provide more capacity for long distance routes and great views from the upper deck, but there's a clear inherent danger not present with other bus types.

You may be right. Though OCT still seems to be planning to buy double decker buses according to that fleet plan.

I think the value is there, in that they provide more seating on lower density suburban routes.

I also wonder if the reduced length has any impact on their fleet planning, since they'd be able to fit more 42' DDs in their depots than 60' artics.

[rocketphish]

City hopes to have fully-electric bus fleet by 2036

Aedan Helmer, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Jun 07, 2021 • 18 hours ago • 2 minute read

The City of Ottawa hopes to becomes the first in Canada to feature a fully electric bus fleet as officials unveiled a plan Monday to phase out its diesel-powered buses by 2036.

Mayor Jim Watson said the city would be “embarking on one of the largest ever municipal investments in zero-emission transit in Canadian history,” with the proposed deal between the city, the federal government and the Canadian Infrastructure Bank.

That agreement will first have to pass through council, and pending approval by the transit commission on June 16 and council on June 23, the city will see 450 electric buses phased into operation by 2027, “putting us well on track to convert the entire bus fleet by 2036,” Watson said. Under the deal, the CIB would invest up to $400 million towards the adoption of the new buses.

OC Transpo currently operates four 40-foot electric buses, which were purchased in December 2020 and are set to join the active fleet this fall.

The transit authority is recommending buying another 74 electric buses in the first phase, along with the required charging infrastructure, as part of the city’s budget for next year.

Those new buses will enter into service in 2023.

The current fleet of diesel buses will be gradually “phased out,” according to transportation services general manager John Manconi, and will be replaced by the electric buses.

Manconi said the electric buses are anticipated to have a longer service life, and maintenance costs will be roughly 35 per cent lower than maintaining a diesel bus.

Operating costs will also be significantly lower as well, Watson said, factoring in savings on diesel fuel.

“We will probably be the first city to have 100 per cent of its fleet electrified, and that’s something we can be very proud of,” Watson said.

“Going completely electric with our bus fleet is just part of this narrative of all the things we have done (in Ottawa),” said Infrastructure and Communities Minister Catherine McKenna, who said nearly a quarter of Canadian emissions are attributed to transportation.

“From the net-zero library to active transportation and cycling paths, we can be the greenest capital in the world. We need to be ambitious.”

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/city-hopes-to-have-fully-electric-bus-fleet-by-2036

[J.OT13]

“From the net-zero library to active transportation and cycling paths, we can be the greenest capital in the world. We need to be ambitious.”

Never going to happen. We are so far behind other world capitals.

During the announcement yesterday, she hinted at other big news coming up, possibly the Gatineau tramway and the PoW/Commanda active transportation bridge.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Never going to happen. We are so far behind other world capitals.

Comes down to how one defines "greenest capital".

I think mostly they are referring to emissions by capital city government. And on this front, Ottawa actually has some easy pathways to cut emissions:



But yeah none of this makes Ottawa a "green capital" in the way that most of us would imagine.

[kmcamp]

Re double decker safety, I'm not sure driving a bus into a moving train or a station really tells us much. Do we have any data around normal vehicle-vehicle collisions? We really don't know how other buses would have performed in those two exceptional scenarios but general traffic accidents would be telling.

I.e. An articulated bus doesn't have the passengers in the front, but it's possible that in the via collision it would have jackknifed into the train, which may or may not have been worse for the passengers

[Truenorth00]

More relevant is whether OCT intends to ditch the double deckers. I've not heard anything like that. So I'm curious where that impression comes from.