VIA Rail

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I guess you didn't hear about the Amtrak expansion plans which include a Chicago - Toronto train.

I've heard... but taking a wait and see approach. (And I'll probably take it as soon as it shows up to visit my sister in Montreal... I don't have a car and air fare is ridiculously expensive).

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I don't see why both Canadian and American customs (CBP pre-clearance facility) could not be at Winnipeg-Union Station. The train would use Amtrak equipment and staff and make no other stops in Canada, in effect a sealed train. Similar to air travel to the US from many Canadian airports you go through American customs before going to the gate, so in theory you have entered the United States before you board the plane. Upon arrival at your destination, or at the first US airport if you are connecting, you are no different from a US domestic traveller.

Yeah, I guess there's nowhere worth stopping south of Winnipeg so this would work. The advantage of doing it on train though would be that it takes no "extra" time, but obviously it complicates life for the border patrol people unless there are a ton of frequencies.

A 520 mile Toronto-Chicago train would already be a higher speed route as the Wolverine currently does the Chicago-Detroit run with speeds up to 110 mph. Customs could be an issue for that one like it is for the Maple Leaf as there would almost certainly be several other stops in Canada. Also that train does a crew change at the border. Customs can add two or more hours to travel time.

Yeah customs on the train here would save a lot of time if possible, but that would probably prevent it from stopping immediately on both sides. Maybe it goes via Detroit then Port Huron/Sarnia and can avoid stopping in Sarnia (under the theory that it's easy enough for Sarnians to cross the border to Port Huron, and that Port Huron to Detroit service doesn't currently exist but London to Sarnia service does?). Between Port Huron and London should be plenty of time to do customs for everyone on the train...

There was a plan in the late 19th c. to build a rail line from Thunder Bay (then Port Arthur and Fort William) to Duluth but it never materialised. A stub line was built to just across the border into Minnesota and operated for several decades. The terrain along the North Shore is very rugged, nothing like the Red River Valley which is as flat as a board.

Yeah, it would have had to be a Circumbaikalesque lakeshore route if it existed.

.

[roger1818]

Things are getting way too emotional on this thread and people on both sides of the debate are acting way too irrational. I’m checking out.

[Urban_Sky]

Anyways, there is no reason to discuss a cross-border service originating/terminating in Winnipeg in this thread, as such a service would obviously be operated by Amtrak exclusively...

[milomilo]

This thread might as well be the fantasy railway ideas thread.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

This thread might as well be the fantasy railway ideas thread.

Really all it is. We stopped discussing actual VIA services a long time ago.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by milomilo

This thread might as well be the fantasy railway ideas thread.

There are enough alternative threads to have any non-railfoamer discussion about passenger rail services in Canada, but people insist for whatever reason to discuss in this thread, which was obviously created for no other reason then to lure in unsuspecting participants, just to then hijack any discussion they might start and drown it in "WE NEED DAILY PASSENGER RAIL SERVICE ALL ACROSS CANADA!!1!" bullshit...

[milomilo]

We got the right solution from kool_maudit two posts in, should have closed it there.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by milomilo

We got the right solution from kool_maudit two posts in, should have closed it there.

Ha. Bang on.

[GoTrans]

duplicate post

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

There are enough alternative threads to have any non-railfoamer discussion about passenger rail services in Canada, but people insist for whatever reason to discuss in this thread, which was obviously created for no other reason then to lure in unsuspecting participants, just to then hijack any discussion they might start and drown it in "WE NEED DAILY PASSENGER RAIL SERVICE ALL ACROSS CANADA!!1!" bullshit...

I would like to point out that there is progress being made on the Ontario Northland file even though the final outcome is not certain at this point. If you don't demand better service, you will never get better service, especially after service has been cancelled. The Ontario Northland scenario shows that improvements will have to come from political pressure.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

The Ontario Northland scenario shows that improvements will have to come from political pressures.

Political pressure from communities along the line that want and will use the service. Where's that same support for a lot of the fantasizing going on here?

Show me the citizens lobby that is actively campaigning for trains between Winnipeg and Regina.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Political pressure from communities along the line that want and will use the service. Where's that same support for a lot of the fantasizing going on here?

Show me the citizens lobby that is actively campaigning for trains between Winnipeg and Regina.

Yeah exactly. If there is local support for that railway then fine. But I don't appreciate outsiders lecturing what infrastructure the place I live needs and not listening when we say what would actually be valuable here. Especially when the suggestions are completely illogical and based on train nostalgia not practical utility.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That would be the 20-30% of riders in the province not using Presto. Doesn't really disprove my point. The vast majority of transit users in a Corridor catchment are likely to be using Presto in Ontario and Opus in Quebec.

List me all of the transit agencies running along the Corridor that does and does not accept Presto. Let me help you with 4 agencies. Windsor, Sarnia, London and Kingston all do not accept Presto. So, now you will force them to do it?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Disagree. If GO is now running all trains to Kitchener, London, Kingston and Ottawa why would they not be taking Presto. Why would my regional and express rail services not be coordinated then?

VIA doesn't prioritize improvements like this because nobody wants to spend on tight integration with Metrolinx and ARTM. If they do, people will be asking why that money wasn't spent on trains to Estevan. A GO-Exo operation would face no such questions.

Via is in a good position to set up a system where all contactless payment cards, like Presto could be accepted across Canada.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Several provinces can be a problem
Ontario and Quebec don't have many disagreements cooperating. Especially on transport.

The problem is whether they would cooperate on this.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What VIA should do is ditch their ridiculous 19th century service model. The Corridor shouldn't require lining up for a train 20 mins in advance and the weighing of luggage. It should be exactly like taking a GO train. Let me walk up to fare gates, tap my phone and board my train. If you're taking a train that's only a few hundred kms in Europe or Asia, this is exactly how it works. But VIA can't and won't change because there's no will to fund such changes and whatever scarce funding there is for extras will be aimed away from improving Corridor service.

There was a time when flying was easier too....

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The feds haven't funded substantial improvements to decades. The Corridor is still not hourly. And doesn't look like it could ever get there under VIA management. GO on the other hand already has some lines at half hourly all day. And will have their whole network at hourly or better all day two way in a decade. As they do upgrades, they routinely upgrade service. I prefer to trust organizations that actually have a track record of delivering.

HFR looks to fix that.
GO has also had a track record of having cuts if the wrong government gets in.

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

I've heard... but taking a wait and see approach. (And I'll probably take it as soon as it shows up to visit my sister in Montreal... I don't have a car and air fare is ridiculously expensive).

Fair answer. However, I'd be willing to bet that it will happen. Amtrak seems to understand that improvements on all routes are needed.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Really all it is. We stopped discussing actual VIA services a long time ago.

We have been talking about passenger service and comparing it to Via. Still on topic.

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I would like to point out that their is progress being made on the Ontario Northland file even though the final outcome is not certain at this point. If you don't demand better service, you will never get better service, especially after service has been cancelled. The Ontario Northland scenario shows that improvements will have to come from political pressures.

^^^THIS^^^

The Highway 11 corridor communities have been pushing for it's return since it was announced that it would be shut down. By the time it comes back it will be about 10 years. Maybe the problem is that outside the Corridor, no one cares. Maybe those areas really don't want it. Or, maybe it has been gone so long they have just given up.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Political pressure from communities along the line that want and will use the service. Where's that same support for a lot of the fantasizing going on here?

Show me the citizens lobby that is actively campaigning for trains between Winnipeg and Regina.

I'll bet there was lots back in the late 90s when it was cut, but now they have just given up.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I'll bet there was lots back in the late 90s when it was cut, but now they have just given up.

There were a lot of protests in 1989 when the cuts were announced, but I don't recall much in terms of public efforts to restore service after the fact. I mean, I'm sure someone was asking for service to be restored behind the scenes, but it was not really an issue that people were getting revved up over at the time.

There was a bit of resignation to declining rail service in that era... it was assumed that service declines for both freight and passenger service was just the way things were headed. Lots of lines were being discontinued, passenger service declined noticeably each decade from the 50s to the 90s, at one point in the mid 90s a lot of people thought CN and CP were going to merge and possibly downgrade or even abandon one of the main lines (it's why the City of Winnipeg paused building railway grade separations for a number of years). So I'm sure there was probably at least some feeling that it was a hopeless case.

I am not aware of anyone currently pushing for Winnipeg-Regina rail service. I think that when the TCH was made fully 4 lanes in the early 2000s, that would have realistically been the death blow to any thoughts of introducing rail service between the two cities.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by esquire

There were a lot of protests in 1989 when the cuts were announced, but I don't recall much in terms of public efforts to restore service after the fact. I mean, I'm sure someone was asking for service to be restored behind the scenes, but it was not really an issue that people were getting revved up over at the time.

There was a bit of resignation to declining rail service in that era... it was assumed that service declines for both freight and passenger service was just the way things were headed. Lots of lines were being discontinued, passenger service declined noticeably each decade from the 50s to the 90s, at one point in the mid 90s people thought CN and CP were going to merge and possibly downgrade or even abandon one of the main lines. So I'm sure there was probably at least some feeling that it was a hopeless case.

You mean there were no Facebook groups of it?
What about a Twitter handle?
Not even a forum like this?

You mean there was no social media ways to get the word out that people were upset?

[milomilo]

Good job the prairie folk have you fighting for then swimmer, they just don't know what's good for them!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You mean there were no Facebook groups of it?
What about a Twitter handle?
Not even a forum like this?

You mean there was no social media ways to get the word out that people were upset?

Not sure what you're getting at exactly... there were obviously ways to disseminate information before the internet. There were public rallies (I even attended one of them myself), news stories, talk radio, letters to the editor, brochures, a book was even written about the 1990 VIA cuts and their impact. All of that was very prominent in 1989 but barely a peep was heard after the 1990 cuts took effect.

[milomilo]

The best thing folks could have done to keep rail service would have been to use it when it was offered. Clearly not many did. I know that the old Calgary Edmonton service that was cancelled was down to only ~150 people a day. If it had been more than that then it might have been kept and improved, but it wasn't so it's gone forever.