VIA Rail

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You know what Buses can't do as easily as trains? They cannot get to the downtown parts of the major cities without being stuck in heavy congestion.

This is a fair point, which is why connecting major cities within reasonable time/distance with high volumes of passengers direct to their downtowns (say for instance, Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto) is a completely valid reason for a train.

VIA (or more accurately, VIA's owner - the federal government) does not see the value in improving train service where it would improve things for 95% of its passengers.

So, the provinces of Ontario and Quebec - who've the most vested interest in this particular route - may be better off running the service themselves.

VIA can be a long-haul train operator. Everybody wins.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It would only solidify how the West and East think of people from Ontario.

I really don't care. And neither should they. Getting better public services should be the goal. Not the feelings of delicate snowflakes who think everything is a conspiracy against their region.

Right now, VIA is basically a Corridor operator that happens to run a few land cruises and some mandated essential services. This 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 for those who live in the Corridor and everywhere else. VIA isn't allowed to invest in the primary source of its cash flow. But it also doesn't get funding to support the rest. And it's basically irrelevant to most of the country outside the Corridor. Except for some railfans, students and pensioners who don't have real schedules, and First Nations forced to rely on the service. The average middle class person probably doesn't think about VIA at all.

Those operations should be separated. But until now, the situation could not be remedied because we didn't have other operators who could fill the gap in the Corridor. Now we do. It is time to let VIA focus on actual long distance travel and leave the Corridor services to the agencies that actual run the bulk of passenger trains in the mega-region.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J81

A bus is not faster unless its express. You clearly have never been on a bus in the maritimes. They arent more reliable in fact the argument could be made they are less reliable especially with the current emissions engines. Bad weather? Not even close. Would you rather spend all night on a bus or all night on a train? How about an all day trip? How about a business trip? You know anyone that takes the bus to a business meeting? Keep going though!

Pre-Covid, how many buses from Halifax to Quebec City. And how long did they take?

[Curmudgeon]

^^^

Advantages of bus:
Cramped
Stinky
Absolutely disgusting "facilities"
Can't get up to walk around, stuck in your uncomfortable and narrow seat
NOT cheaper
Gets stuck in traffic when in the cities

Advantages of train:
Comfortable
Can get a sleeper and have a shower
Can get up and walk around, sit in the dome car and read, have a drink in the bar car and meet new people
The views the views the views
On board dining
Always the right of way over vehicles
Faster, in most cases, maybe not the Canadian or the Ocean, but that's not the fault of the trains is it now.

Also, the Canadian receives only a very small subsidy. It is the train that attracts the international tourists who spend a lot of money here on other items. That $55 million comes back in spades. The Rocky Mountaineer caters to a niche market. Very very few people, even Swiss or Norwegians can afford five figures for two to go from Calgary to Vancouver. Guaranteed that many of the Corridor services are subsidized as well. I'd venture to guess that only Toronto-Montreal and maybe Toronto-Ottawa and Montreal-Ottawa routes earn money.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by thewave46

This is a fair point, which is why connecting major cities within reasonable time/distance with high volumes of passengers direct to their downtowns (say for instance, Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto) is a completely valid reason for a train.

VIA (or more accurately, VIA's owner - the federal government) does not see the value in improving train service where it would improve things for 95% of its passengers.

So, the provinces of Ontario and Quebec - who've the most vested interest in this particular route - may be better off running the service themselves.

VIA can be a long-haul train operator. Everybody wins.

The Corridor has done a good job of this. The same cannot be said for the Canadian. What about 1/3 of the rest of the country's population? Why should 1/2 of the country's population get 95% of the service?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The Corridor has done a good job of this. The same cannot be said for the Canadian. What about 1/3 of the rest of the country's population? Why should 1/2 of the country's population get 95% of the service?

My point is that we'd just hand it to the two jurisdictions who've the most stake in that particular route. No more federal subsidies for Ontario and Quebec riders - their provincial governments would carry that cost. Just like they do with regional rail (GO/EXO) right now.

VIA wouldn't have to worry about the Corridor anymore - it could focus on long-haul traffic like the Canadian and not have the whiny Corridor folks complaining they are subsidizing routes no one uses. Quebec and Ontario could make any improvements on the Corridor without the rest of the country complaining that they don't use that service.

Corridor becomes the ward of Ontario and Quebec. VIA runs the rest of the show. What's not to like?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The Corridor has done a good job of this. The same cannot be said for the Canadian. What about 1/3 of the rest of the country's population? Why should 1/2 of the country's population get 95% of the service?

It's all about density and just plain distance. That's why rail is so successful in Europe. Rail begins to lose its competitive advantage beyond about 4 hours. Major investments should be made in improving Corridor services. If Toronto-Montreal could be reduced to 3 1/2 hours VIA could double or more its share of that passenger market, much like Amtrak achieved with it's Northeast Corridor services. My guess is that the real opposition comes from the airlines.

Beyond perhaps Calgary-Edmonton, the restoration of two transcontinental services and the link to the south from Winnipeg, I don't think anyone is asking for additional routes in the West, just more frequent and faster service, even just restoration of what we had in the 80s/90s. As it is now it discourages many people from even considering the train.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by thewave46

My point is that we'd just hand it to the two jurisdictions who've the most stake in that particular route. No more federal subsidies for Ontario and Quebec riders - their provincial governments would carry that cost. Just like they do with regional rail (GO/EXO) right now.

VIA wouldn't have to worry about the Corridor anymore - it could focus on long-haul traffic like the Canadian and not have the whiny Corridor folks complaining they are subsidizing routes no one uses. Quebec and Ontario could make any improvements on the Corridor without the rest of the country complaining that they don't use that service.

Corridor becomes the ward of Ontario and Quebec. VIA runs the rest of the show. What's not to like?

Good, while we're at it, Ontario and Quebec can keep the carbon tax and leave the rest of us to decide whether or not we want to have one at all. And I'd like real free trade please, as in buy any manufactured item I want (esp. cars and trucks) without duty or have imported items be able to be sold at retailers without a change of label. And true tender for contracts. No more favouritism for Bombardier. And let CN, VIA and Air Canada choose their own headquarters.

Carbon taxes and heavy regulation become the ward of Ontario and Quebec and the other provinces do as they want. What's not to like?

I really am starting to think that this country has a few decades left at best with attitudes like that.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I proposed above in this thread that perhaps non-residents of Canada should pay a higher fare or Canadian residents get a discount from full fare, either/or. Many Canadians use the services, I have a number of times. It is amazing. The subsidies are trifling.

What a tremendous waste of money schools are, esp. when a significant number of high school grads are functionally illiterate. Do you believe that we should close them?

As Joe Biden says, "Come on Man".

If you charge more for the seats you will get less ridership. If you want to increase frequency then you'll need to encourage more people to ride, which requires lower prices. There is an equilibrium where there is the most profit/least subsidy.

If you increased the speed, then you might get more ridership, but these are tourists, they likely aren't as concerned with time as a business traveller would be. So investing the amount of money required to increase speeds significantly, and buy the trains required to increase the frequency, is unlikely to be repaid by increased tourist ridership.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Good, while we're at it, Ontario and Quebec can keep the carbon tax and leave the rest of us to decide whether or not we want to have one at all. And I'd like real free trade please, as in buy any manufactured item I want (esp. cars and trucks) without duty or have imported items be able to be sold at retailers without a change of label. And true tender for contracts. No more favouritism for Bombardier. And let CN, VIA and Air Canada choose their own headquarters.

Carbon taxes and heavy regulation become the ward of Ontario and Quebec and the other provinces do as they want. What's not to like?

I really am starting to think that this country has a few decades left at best with attitudes like that.

Isn't that what one of the tenets of federalism is? Certain responsibilities for certain levels of government? I'd imagine taxpayers in Newfoundland, PEI and the Territories have no interest in subsidizing Corridor riders.

Or do we want a heavy-handed Ottawa, just like in the 1970s?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by milomilo

If you charge more for the seats you will get less ridership. If you want to increase frequency then you'll need to encourage more people to ride, which requires lower prices. There is an equilibrium where there is the most profit/least subsidy.

If you increased the speed, then you might get more ridership, but these are tourists, they likely aren't as concerned with time as a business traveller would be. So investing the amount of money required to increase speeds significantly, and buy the trains required to increase the frequency, is unlikely to be repaid by increased tourist ridership.

A tourist from Japan, the U.K. or Germany will not care if they pay 25% more than a Canadian resident. They specifically have come to take one of the world's greatest railway journeys. The majority of the ridership is domestic, I am not suggesting an increase in fares for Canadian residents, but speeding up the travel time and on-time performance would definitely increase ridership. There is no significant investment required to increase speeds on the Canadian to what they were 20 years ago, it was 16 hours faster, and it could be reduced 12 hours less than that. Nothing has changed. Amtrak has close to double the average speed on the Empire Builder compared to the Canadian. How did they do it? Maybe we should ask. An increase in frequency would also increase ridership, esp. since half of the daily trains would serve the southern route, including Calgary!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Good, while we're at it, Ontario and Quebec can keep the carbon tax and leave the rest of us to decide whether or not we want to have one at all.

Unfortunately, greenhouse gas emissions and their effects don't stay in the province or country emitted. Which is why there is national policy to control them. The same way that fisheries are a national concern.

This is, however, not really the case with so much of VIA's business. 95% of their ridership and 77% is revenue is on the Corridor. Puts them in a peculiar bind of having to focus where most of their customers are, while their owner wants to focus elsewhere.

Split up VIA here. Hand over all the Corridor assets to Ontario and Quebec. Convert the subsidy that Corridor ops usually receives into a long term annual grant for intercity services. Let Ontario and Quebec then decide how to best to serve their residents. Let a much smaller VIA focus on the rest.

Or divest other services as appropriate. There's nothing, for example, that says the Ocean can't be managed/owned by a consortium of Maritime provinces.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by thewave46

My point is that we'd just hand it to the two jurisdictions who've the most stake in that particular route. No more federal subsidies for Ontario and Quebec riders - their provincial governments would carry that cost. Just like they do with regional rail (GO/EXO) right now.

VIA wouldn't have to worry about the Corridor anymore - it could focus on long-haul traffic like the Canadian and not have the whiny Corridor folks complaining they are subsidizing routes no one uses. Quebec and Ontario could make any improvements on the Corridor without the rest of the country complaining that they don't use that service.

Corridor becomes the ward of Ontario and Quebec. VIA runs the rest of the show. What's not to like?

Ah, so you mean kinda like how the PCs of Ontario in the 90s downloaded things to the cities?

Originally Posted by thewave46

Isn't that what one of the tenets of federalism is? Certain responsibilities for certain levels of government? I'd imagine taxpayers in Newfoundland, PEI and the Territories have no interest in subsidizing Corridor riders.

Or do we want a heavy-handed Ottawa, just like in the 1970s?

Some people want to forget the past. The past where things were canceled for political reasons. The past where things were owned by governments and were still canceled. The past where The province downloaded things to cities to the point where things are horrible.

Maybe they actually want the heavy handed Ottawa.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

A tourist from Japan, the U.K. or Germany will not care if they pay 25% more than a Canadian resident. They specifically have come to take one of the world's greatest railway journeys. The majority of the ridership is domestic, I am not suggesting an increase in fares for Canadian residents, but speeding up the travel time and on-time performance would definitely increase ridership. There is no significant investment required to increase speeds on the Canadian to what they were 20 years ago, it was 16 hours faster, and it could be reduced 12 hours less than that. Nothing has changed. Amtrak has close to double the average speed on the Empire Builder compared to the Canadian. How did they do it? Maybe we should ask. An increase in frequency would also increase ridership, esp. since half of the daily trains would serve the southern route, including Calgary!

You could double the fee for out of country tourists and they still would take it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Unfortunately, greenhouse gas emissions and their effects don't stay in the province or country emitted. Which is why there is national policy to control them. The same way that fisheries are a national concern.

This is, however, not really the case with so much of VIA's business. 95% of their ridership and 77% is revenue is on the Corridor. Puts them in a peculiar bind of having to focus where most of their customers are, while their owner wants to focus elsewhere.

Split up VIA here. Hand over all the Corridor assets to Ontario and Quebec. Convert the subsidy that Corridor ops usually receives into a long term annual grant for intercity services. Let Ontario and Quebec then decide how to best to serve their residents. Let a much smaller VIA focus on the rest.

Or divest other services as appropriate. There's nothing, for example, that says the Ocean can't be managed/owned by a consortium of Maritime provinces.

So, what you want is a transfer system much like how transit works in places like Toronto where you must pay a separate fare to a separate entity to ride?

Why do you want things to be more difficult for the traveler?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

A tourist from Japan, the U.K. or Germany will not care if they pay 25% more than a Canadian resident. They specifically have come to take one of the world's greatest railway journeys. The majority of the ridership is domestic, I am not suggesting an increase in fares for Canadian residents, but speeding up the travel time and on-time performance would definitely increase ridership. There is no significant investment required to increase speeds on the Canadian to what they were 20 years ago, it was 16 hours faster, and it could be reduced 12 hours less than that. Nothing has changed. Amtrak has close to double the average speed on the Empire Builder compared to the Canadian. How did they do it? Maybe we should ask. An increase in frequency would also increase ridership, esp. since half of the daily trains would serve the southern route, including Calgary!

You should send an email to VIA letting them know they are charging too little for seats! Amazing that you discovered they are leaving money on the table.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Are you talking about the gap between St. Thomas and Altona? That could be rebuilt, it's only 40 miles. Both CN and CP trains cross at on the Minnesota side with CN trains crossing the Red at Emerson and running up on the Letellier sub and CP trains staying east of the River and running up on the Emerson sub.

I was looking at the line East of that, directly adjacent to I-29 (the "Drayton Subdivision"). But yeah there are options, and this is not a a place where laying rail would be expensive.

There are always going to be people who prefer to drive, the idea is to get a larger share of the market. There is a lot of traffic between southern Manitoba and Grand Forks and Fargo, esp. Grand Forks as that is the "Bellingham" or the "Buffalo" for this market. You should have seen the line-ups at the border when the C$ was closer to par. That city is really hurting right now as the border is closed. Many hotels were built for Canadian tourists. Fargo is much bigger so many go the extra 70 miles for the increased choices, plus it has a Costco and people here just love Costco. And it's a Costco with wine, beer and liquor, lol! It's rumoured that the Kirkland Vodka is actually Grey Goose, 60 oz. for around $20. Then there's some with money who go for medical treatments if they don't want to wait and also many Canadians use Grand Forks and Fargo for the airports as both are served by Allegiant. Yeah, it's a bargain basement airline but I've flown to Vegas for well under $100 return. I think I paid something like $139 for LAX return. The long term parking is a fraction of what is charged at YWG. So 1 3/4 hrs to GF or a 2 1/2 hour trip to Fargo, no line ups at the border, no weather, no construction, an uber to the airport, no parking fees, many would jump on board for that.

The Twin Cities are the regional metropolis for the Upper Midwest and many Canadians go there for a short vacation or even to go to a Vikes game, or to see the Jets play in Saint Paul. And there's so much to do there and it's not far to Wis. Dells. And then of course there's the North Shore which is absolutely beautiful. Americans come up to Manitoba because they can drink at 18, they like our beer for some reason, they absolutely love the pot shops, for concerts and culture, to see the Wild or the Hawks play here, they like the casinos and the beaches and then of course there are the many fly-in fishing lodges up north. I think a daily train would be well used, and again both Grand Forks and Fargo need better connections to the Twin Cities anyways, and the Cities themselves need a second daily train to Chicago. The needed improvements are about 140 miles, of which just about 65 are in Canada, although I would think Amtrak would expect a contribution for the section in the U.S. north of Grand Forks.

Manitoba needs to get on board with the Midwest Rail Initiative now. This project offers huge benefits for the province, plus for Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota and North Dakota.

Yeah this makes it sound like a no-brainer, especially if customs could be done on the train. But a Toronto - Chicago train is also a no-brainer and currently doesn't run (although at least there, it's possible to get flights that aren't extortionary). VIA and Amtrak need to cooperate more where it makes sense.


Was there ever a ROW along the lake between Duluth and TB? It looks like if there was any, it's long gone now, unfortunately. Otherwise this would be another reasonable place for cooperation between Amtrak and VIA once MSP-Duluth service is resumed.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, what you want is a transfer system much like how transit works in places like Toronto where you must pay a separate fare to a separate entity to ride?

Why would that be the case? Can separate entities not have fare or booking integration and common ticketing/payment systems?

If my VIA trips includes a GO ride right now, it's ticketed on my VIA ticket. I don't see any reason this would change if GO was handling Corridor services. You book a Winnipeg to Ottawa trip? Your ticket will include the Toronto-Ottawa portion as well as your Winnipeg-Toronto Canadian leg. This isn't really complicated.

In fact integration would actually improve. Right now we have nearly 70-80% of the Ontario's transit riders using a fare medium that VIA doesn't accept on Corridor services: Presto. VIA also doesn't accept the fare cards used by most of Quebec's transit riders: Opus. A properly integrated service should make it possible for me to tap my Presto at an LRT station in Ottawa, get off at Tremblay and then tap it again to get on to a train to Toronto or Montreal. Taking a Corridor train should be as easy as taking the GO train. And this is how trains are in most of the developed world.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why do you want things to be more difficult for the traveler?

Because I don't see it being difficult for the traveler?

You now what is difficult for travelers? 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵, slow, infrequent and expensive service.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Yeah this makes it sound like a no-brainer, especially if customs could be done on the train. But a Toronto - Chicago train is also a no-brainer and currently doesn't run (although at least there, it's possible to get flights that aren't extortionary). VIA and Amtrak need to cooperate more where it makes sense.


Was there ever a ROW along the lake between Duluth and TB? It looks like if there was any, it's long gone now, unfortunately. Otherwise this would be another reasonable place for cooperation between Amtrak and VIA once MSP-Duluth service is resumed.

I guess you didn't hear about the Amtrak expansion plans which include a Chicago - Toronto train.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why would that be the case? Can separate entities not have fare or booking integration and common ticketing/payment systems?

If my VIA trips includes a GO ride right now, it's ticketed on my VIA ticket. I don't see any reason this would change if GO was handling Corridor services. You book a Winnipeg to Ottawa trip? Your ticket will include the Toronto-Ottawa portion as well as your Winnipeg-Toronto Canadian leg. This isn't really complicated.

In fact integration would actually improve. Right now we have nearly 70-80% of the Ontario's transit riders using a fare medium that VIA doesn't accept on Corridor services: Presto. VIA also doesn't accept the fare cards used by most of Quebec's transit riders: Opus. A properly integrated service should make it possible for me to tap my Presto at an LRT station in Ottawa, get off at Tremblay and then tap it again to get on to a train to Toronto or Montreal. Taking a Corridor train should be as easy as taking the GO train. And this is how trains are in most of the developed world.

You mean how The Grand River Transit system doesn't take Presto either?

Taking Via out of the picture is not going to magically improve things. If you can pay with Presto when the Northlander returns, then, maybe I will agree with you.

But then you still have Montreal to deal with. The provinces rarely agree on the same thing, so anything crossing provincial line could be a mess.

What Via should do is accept payment from all contactless payment systems. Yes, there would be an added cost, but by having all accepted, then it works well regardless of where you are coming/going.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Because I don't see it being difficult for the traveler?

You now what is difficult for travelers? 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵, slow, infrequent and expensive service.

Then let's fix that, but not just on the Corridor. Let's start with the infrequency.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

I was looking at the line East of that, directly adjacent to I-29 (the "Drayton Subdivision"). But yeah there are options, and this is not a a place where laying rail would be expensive.



Yeah this makes it sound like a no-brainer, especially if customs could be done on the train. But a Toronto - Chicago train is also a no-brainer and currently doesn't run (although at least there, it's possible to get flights that aren't extortionary). VIA and Amtrak need to cooperate more where it makes sense.


Was there ever a ROW along the lake between Duluth and TB? It looks like if there was any, it's long gone now, unfortunately. Otherwise this would be another reasonable place for cooperation between Amtrak and VIA once MSP-Duluth service is resumed.

I don't see why both Canadian and American customs (CBP pre-clearance facility) could not be at Winnipeg-Union Station. The train would use Amtrak equipment and staff and make no other stops in Canada, in effect a sealed train. Similar to air travel to the US from many Canadian airports you go through American customs before going to the gate, so in theory you have entered the United States before you board the plane. Upon arrival at your destination, or at the first US airport if you are connecting, you are no different from a US domestic traveller.

A 520 mile Toronto-Chicago train would already be a higher speed route as the Wolverine currently does the Chicago-Detroit run with speeds up to 110 mph. Customs could be an issue for that one like it is for the Maple Leaf as there would almost certainly be several other stops in Canada. Also that train does a crew change at the border. Customs can add two or more hours to travel time.

There was a plan in the late 19th c. to build a rail line from Thunder Bay (then Port Arthur and Fort William) to Duluth but it never materialised. A stub line was built to just across the border into Minnesota and operated for several decades. The terrain along the North Shore is very rugged, nothing like the Red River Valley which is as flat as a board.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You mean how The Grand River Transit system doesn't take Presto either?

That would be the 20-30% of riders in the province not using Presto. Doesn't really disprove my point. The vast majority of transit users in a Corridor catchment are likely to be using Presto in Ontario and Opus in Quebec.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Taking Via out of the picture is not going to magically improve things.

Disagree. If GO is now running all trains to Kitchener, London, Kingston and Ottawa why would they not be taking Presto. Why would my regional and express rail services not be coordinated then?

VIA doesn't prioritize improvements like this because nobody wants to spend on tight integration with Metrolinx and ARTM. If they do, people will be asking why that money wasn't spent on trains to Estevan. A GO-Exo operation would face no such questions.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

But then you still have Montreal to deal with.

Which isn't an issue. Just add Opus which covers the largest transit systems in Quebec.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The provinces rarely agree on the same thing, so anything crossing provincial line could be a mess.

Several provinces can be a problem
Ontario and Quebec don't have many disagreements cooperating. Especially on transport.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What Via should do is accept payment from all contactless payment systems. Yes, there would be an added cost, but by having all accepted, then it works well regardless of where you are coming/going.

What VIA should do is ditch their ridiculous 19th century service model. The Corridor shouldn't require lining up for a train 20 mins in advance and the weighing of luggage. It should be exactly like taking a GO train. Let me walk up to fare gates, tap my phone and board my train. If you're taking a train that's only a few hundred kms in Europe or Asia, this is exactly how it works. But VIA can't and won't change because there's no will to fund such changes and whatever scarce funding there is for extras will be aimed away from improving Corridor service.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Then let's fix that, but not just on the Corridor. Let's start with the infrequency.

The feds haven't funded substantial improvements to decades. The Corridor is still not hourly. And doesn't look like it could ever get there under VIA management. GO on the other hand already has some lines at half hourly all day. And will have their whole network at hourly or better all day two way in a decade. As they do upgrades, they routinely upgrade service. I prefer to trust organizations that actually have a track record of delivering.