The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

100% upper level funding has been pretty standard in many other cities. That's been the GTHA deal for years. That's what Quebec City is getting. Municipalities in the Montreal area aren't paying a dime for the REM (which has its own beast of a funding formula with CDPQ).

It's only been standard for the biggest metros in Ontario and Quebec over the last decade. And in Ontario this has come with a demand of substantial provincial ownership and control. With all the LRT lines that are fully funded to be owned by Metrolinx. This is why for example, Waterloo had to contribute towards Ion and Toronto has to pitch in for all subway extensions. In this sense what Ottawa is asking for is rather unique, 100% federal and provincial funding for an asset that the City of Ottawa will 100% own.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ottawa wants in after paying more than a third for over a decade (mostly due to bad estimates).

I agree that Ottawa should get a better deal. But I have serious doubts, it'll get the 100% deal that Watson wants.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If bus electrification takes priority, than the Feds should step-in and fund our proposed BRT lines with built-in charging equipment.

This is actually what is likely to happen over the next decade. I expect cities will be told that there will be more generous funding for bus infrastructure of all kinds, as long as they commit to some target (say 50% zero emissions bus fleet by 2030 and 100% by 2035). I expect a large push for bus infrastructure on everything from curbside bus lanes and new bus shelters to grade separated transitways and new bus garages inner the next decade as Ottawa tweetries to drum up more business for New Flyer, Novabus and Lion Electric.

[SteelTown]

Thank you Minister McKenna!

Feds, province pledge $3.4B for Hamilton LRT, but city will have to pay operating costs

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-hamilton-1.6023918

The federal and provincial governments will spend a combined $3.4 billion to build a light-rail transit system in Hamilton, but city council will likely still have to buy into the plan.

Catherine McKenna, federal minister of infrastructure and communities, and Caroline Mulroney, Ontario minister of transportation, announced the joint commitment Thursday morning.

The money, which amounts to $1.7 billion per level of government, will cover the cost of building a 14-kilometre line from McMaster University in the west end to Eastgate Square in Stoney Creek. The line would run alternately down King and Main streets.

"Now we need the City of Hamilton to formalize their contribution to the ongoing operation and maintenance of LRT, as was always the plan," Mulroney said.

The commitment amounts to a $1.7-billion new commitment from Ottawa, and $700 million more than the province initially said it would cover.

"It's going to be awesome," McKenna said during a 10 a.m. Zoom announcement.

"The condition of these investments is shovel-ready projects, and we have a shovel-ready project right here in Hamilton."

Both ministers were clear that the money is only available for an LRT, and that bus rapid transit (BRT) system isn't part of the picture.

Should city council try vying for a BRT, "there's no deal," said McKenna.

"Our partnership is for an LRT," Mulroney echoed.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said while he certainly wanted it to happen "sooner," he thought there couldn't be a "better time" for an LRT to be built in the city.

"Timing is everything," he said, adding that the funding was "nothing but a win."

Eisenberger estimated that the LRT project would create 7,000 jobs. If a company was offering that many, he said, "we would move heaven and earth to make sure that would happen."

A critical piece, he said, will be the memorandum of understanding, which will require a vote from council.

[esquire]

^ I am envious that Hamilton got that deal done. Congratulations, you guys.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Green Line up and down Robie seems like a pretty straightforward LRT line sometime in the future. Eventually.

Robie Street does not really directly serve any larger destinations, although one day it will run by the main hospital site. It also sometimes goes down to 2 or 3 lanes, with historic buildings on either side. And it's mostly residential.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

Robie Street does not really directly serve any larger destinations, although one day it will run by the main hospital site.

If designed well enough it could capture both SMU and DAL in the south and get close enough to DT/Metro Centre/Barrington in the north. Like, Robie north to Cogswell, then down Cogswell onto either Barrington or Brunswick.

Originally Posted by someone123

It also sometimes goes down to 2 lanes, with historic buildings on either side.

Sounds like a good chance to remove cars and have it be LRT-only, then.

don't let the Halifax subforum know that I suggested this

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

don't let the Halifax subforum know that I suggested this

I will say that one of the dumbest Halifax transit memes is the idea that there's "nowhere to put" something like LRT. As if cities often have perfect corridors that sit empty, waiting for somebody to lay down track. Swapping mixed traffic lanes for transit is common and if it happens on 1 street that might not be a big deal.

I'm still not sold on any particular rail alignments though, without the need to build tunnels. In the past, Halifax had Birney streetcars partly because of their narrow turning radius, and there are 0 downtown streets that transition into useful arteries that run through a key part of the city. I think the inner city might eventually end up with some kind of transit tunnel.

One big lost opportunity right now is the Cogswell redevelopment. They are just doing a "transit mall" type of setup there. They could do any cut-and-cover digging they want during the redevelopment.

[manny_santos]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/greyhound-canada-1.6025276

They will be retaining five cross-border routes provided by Greyhound USA, but this does not include the Toronto-Detroit route.

It will be interesting to see how the provincial governments in Ontario and Quebec will respond, particularly for cities where the only inter-city bus service has been Greyhound up to this point (e.g. London).

[ssiguy]

It maybe the only inner-city bus in London but London has good VIA service and is the 4th busiest station on the system.

As far as Greyhound, it's a sad piece of news but not an unexpected one. If it couldn't survive in Western Canada that has essentially no rail service then how could it survive in the East with rail service?

Still a real loss. Greyhound has been around for over a century and it really is part of our history and culture. That classic greyhound dog was one of the most iconic and well recognized corporate logo in NA. Unfortunately it provided a 20th century service in a 21st century world and has had to compete with other niche bus services that sucked it's primary revenue generators.

[Dengler Avenue]

For real?! Now we can finally have Go Bus running between Waterloo and Guelph via ON-7.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The Kanata extension serves Liberal Karen McCrimmon's Kanata-Carleton riding. It was a new riding in 2018, but I could see it being a battle ground, so Eagleson or Terry Fox, just to say they got it there, is plausible.

Oh geez you're right. I thought the riding went blue last election, but I guess that was just my imagination lol. As you suggested, though, the numbers were close enough that funding an LRT to Terry Fox or even Eagleson might be enough to sway voters.

On the whole I get TN's thinking on the matter, but I'm not going to dismiss the funding possibility for Terry Fox just yet.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is actually what is likely to happen over the next decade. I expect cities will be told that there will be more generous funding for bus infrastructure of all kinds, as long as they commit to some target (say 50% zero emissions bus fleet by 2030 and 100% by 2035). I expect a large push for bus infrastructure on everything from curbside bus lanes and new bus shelters to grade separated transitways and new bus garages inner the next decade as Ottawa tweetries to drum up more business for New Flyer, Novabus and Lion Electric.

Ya they do seem to be moving in that direction, which is great. I know Lion Electric does school buses, but I haven't seen any public transit products yet. It'd be interesting if they make a move for that market in the near future, given their upcoming production expansion in the US. I have high hopes for them. Even decided to buy some LEV shares and I'm in it for the long run.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Thank you Minister McKenna!

Feds, province pledge $3.4B for Hamilton LRT, but city will have to pay operating costs

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-hamilton-1.6023918

I'm happy Hamilton will finally get it's LRT. It just really bothers me that dumb-ass Doug cancelled the estimated $1B project two years ago (for which the true cost will never be know due to the project being cancelled in the middle of the RFP) and now funding half of the same project for $3.4B. Labour and materials have gone way up over the last year due to the pandemic.

And $3.4B for a 14 km surface rail when Ottawa's 2012 12.5 km fully grade separated line only cost $2.1B. Shows how much costs have skyrocketed.

Also:

Feds, province pledge $3.4B for Hamilton LRT, but city will have to pay operating costs

I know Metrolinx is/will be building and maintaining most or all the new lines in the GTA, even those considered part of the TTC Subway (as in on the TTC subway map with line numbers) but in the past, that was standard, plus cities had to throw in 1/3+ for capital costs as well.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hamilton seems uniquely poised to reject large capital subsidies because of the ongoing lifecycle costs. Think someone explained it here as a problem from amalgamation where not all areas of the city pay the same level of property taxes, so some councillors don't want service, as it would trigger big tax increases in their rotten burrows.

[SteelTown]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I know Metrolinx is/will be building and maintaining most or all the new lines in the GTA, even those considered part of the TTC Subway (as in on the TTC subway map with line numbers) but in the past, that was standard, plus cities had to throw in 1/3+ for capital costs as well.

Being a traditional blue-collar city, many of Hamilton's councillors are pro-labour unions and therefore added a clause stating that the HSR must operate and own the LRTs.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Being a traditional blue-collar city, many of Hamilton's councillors are pro-labour unions and therefore added a clause stating that the HSR must operate and own the LRTs.

They do know they could mandate pattern labour agreements without requiring things like that? Annoying for contracting for sure.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

Halifax has a rapid transit plan and bus-only lanes. The first BRT routes with limited stops and signal priority (MetroLink) started service around 2005.

I think the biggest issue with LRT in Halifax is there is no particularly good single route for it to follow. It's not surprising the transit planners went for a somewhat complicated system of 4 corridors plus ferries. I could see something like the green line becoming an LRT-like service one day.

Am I the only one who dislikes the trend away from surnames as place names and toward full names? Larry Uteck, John Savage, Ruth Goldbloom, etc.?


https://www.halifax.ca/transportation/halifax-transit/plans-reports


Source

There is a solution for finding the best route....

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yeah, much as I'd love to see LRT on Barrington, it's just not feasible. That said, I think the federal and provincial governments could do with some funding to help make the BRT better. Funding for better stop with shelters, bike storage, real time information systems, curb cut-outs, attractive paving and electric buses with Oppchargers at major stops. Halifax could actually be quite the medium city LRT showcase.

Depends. I kinda wish Pearson airport kept Lester's first name.

Originally Posted by JHikka

Green Line up and down Robie seems like a pretty straightforward LRT line sometime in the future. Eventually.

The solution - on the peninsula - bury the line. Pick the places you want to serve, connect them underground. AFAIK the ground is quite stable there.

Originally Posted by JHikka

An easy solution is to simply not name places and things after people.

With the Metoo and woke movements, we are finding that is may be more important to leave historical figures in the past. Names like Halifax and Cornwalis are important, but for the people on the other side of their history, it is difficult.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I am envious that Hamilton got that deal done. Congratulations, you guys.

Why are you envious?

Originally Posted by JHikka

If designed well enough it could capture both SMU and DAL in the south and get close enough to DT/Metro Centre/Barrington in the north. Like, Robie north to Cogswell, then down Cogswell onto either Barrington or Brunswick.

Sounds like a good chance to remove cars and have it be LRT-only, then.

don't let the Halifax subforum know that I suggested this

Or, a nice tunnel under the peninsula.

Originally Posted by someone123

I will say that one of the dumbest Halifax transit memes is the idea that there's "nowhere to put" something like LRT. As if cities often have perfect corridors that sit empty, waiting for somebody to lay down track. Swapping mixed traffic lanes for transit is common and if it happens on 1 street that might not be a big deal.

I'm still not sold on any particular rail alignments though, without the need to build tunnels. In the past, Halifax had Birney streetcars partly because of their narrow turning radius, and there are 0 downtown streets that transition into useful arteries that run through a key part of the city. I think the inner city might eventually end up with some kind of transit tunnel.

One big lost opportunity right now is the Cogswell redevelopment. They are just doing a "transit mall" type of setup there. They could do any cut-and-cover digging they want during the redevelopment.

The city is not ready for real RT. That area may not even be part of the end result of any RT in the future.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It maybe the only inner-city bus in London but London has good VIA service and is the 4th busiest station on the system.

As far as Greyhound, it's a sad piece of news but not an unexpected one. If it couldn't survive in Western Canada that has essentially no rail service then how could it survive in the East with rail service?

Still a real loss. Greyhound has been around for over a century and it really is part of our history and culture. That classic greyhound dog was one of the most iconic and well recognized corporate logo in NA. Unfortunately it provided a 20th century service in a 21st century world and has had to compete with other niche bus services that sucked it's primary revenue generators.

Maybe this is time for GO transit to extend their bus network to London and possibly beyond. This could then set up for an extension of GO train to London in a decade or so.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It maybe the only inner-city bus in London but London has good VIA service and is the 4th busiest station on the system.

London's Greyhound station was no slouch either. I would guess, since I don't know if the figures are available anywhere, that more people boarded buses in London than they board trains on a given day. And VIA certainly won't be able to absorb the passenger loads themselves when the students come back. I think GO coming to London will be a no brainer, not sure how long it will take though.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There is a solution for finding the best route....


The solution - on the peninsula - bury the line. Pick the places you want to serve, connect them underground. AFAIK the ground is quite stable there.

Yes, having unlimited money is a great solution to most of life's problems.

The issue is that an underground rail line is something like 5-10x the cost of a surface LRT. With that kind of money available, the problem wouldn't exist in the first place because we wouldn't need to decide on an LRT route. If we were having trouble choosing between say, 5 different options, we could just build them all!

[someone123]

I think the expanded ferry system idea is pretty intriguing. The proposed Larry Uteck ferry spot is this area:


Source

This is the timing:


https://www.halifax.ca/transportation/transportation-projects/transforming-transit

I wonder if LRT would beat the ferry travel times. Probably not, although it would stop at places along the way.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Yes, having unlimited money is a great solution to most of life's problems.

The issue is that an underground rail line is something like 5-10x the cost of a surface LRT. With that kind of money available, the problem wouldn't exist in the first place because we wouldn't need to decide on an LRT route. If we were having trouble choosing between say, 5 different options, we could just build them all!

Talk to Edmonton. They have their downtown line underground.
For the peninsula, if the line(s) are underground, the traffic can continue to do as it needs to do. No need to take lanes away for an LRT. No need to figure out which road is the one you build.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I am envious that Hamilton got that deal done. Congratulations, you guys.

Let's hope. The city still needs to agree to pay for the LRT train sheds and Hamilton is run by mostly suburban councilors in wards that are anti streetcar. People that don't live in the core were against it. Especially after they heard it might effect their drive through town in rush hour by 4 mins.

Let's hope rational minds make the right choice. This will be a game changer for Steeltown.