Geographic oddities

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by edale

You're clueless. Did you know that the Cincinnati Archdiocese does not cross the state line, and that Covington has its own Diocese? Guessing you did not.

Cleveland Archdiocese (which includes Akron): 682,948
Cincinnati Archdiocese (which includes Dayton): 471,457
Covington Diocese: 92,456

So you're looking at 682,000 in Cleveland compared to 563,000 in Cincinnati. Cleveland CSA is ~3.5 million, while greater Cincinnati+Dayton MSA is about ~3 million. 19% for Cleveland, 18.7% for CinDay. Pretty much identical.

ridiculous. you’re adding another diocese and one that’s in another state at that. so why not throw in indiana while you’re you’re at it? plus you are ignoring the massive land area of the cinci diocese, which is ten additional counties vs cleveland’s.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by craigs

My Dad is the only one left in the family who goes to Mass, but for some reason my sister was interested in getting married in a Catholic church. They were not having it--it wasn't even about taking classes, it was about being a parishioner in good standing for years before that would be allowed. Now her twins are graduating from high school, and neither they nor their little sister have ever set foot in a Catholic church.

you hear similar situations a lot. pretty common i think. for me i always thought i would get back into it whenever i can retire. at least i tell myself that. ha.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

I think Steely (or maybe it was Shawn?) once coined the term "Cathnostic," which is a pretty apt description for what you're both describing

I think "cultural Catholics" is a commonly used term, at least in academic circles. Describes my family too. My wife and I did all the sacraments, but we only step foot in church on Christmas and Easter.

My son was baptized (largely so the grandparents don't freak out, and nothing wrong with a party), but Catholicism in my family essentially stops with him. I feel very happy it isn't part of his life.

[Camelback]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think "cultural Catholics" is a commonly used term, at least in academic circles. Describes my family too. My wife and I did all the sacraments, but we only step foot in church on Christmas and Easter.

My son was baptized (largely so the grandparents don't freak out, and nothing wrong with a party), but Catholicism in my family essentially stops with him. I feel very happy it isn't part of his life.

Then what's the point? Is just to be able to identify that you're part of something bigger? I quoted Crawford, but the question applies to everybody that does the same thing, attend church services only on the major holidays, gets their children baptized, gets married in a church, etc.

I was baptized, went to Sunday school, went to church every Sunday up until high school and then I decided (actually the rest of my entire family did as well) that I/we would rather have my Sundays available for something else to do.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Camelback

Then what's the point? Is just to be able to identify that you're part of something bigger? I

We baptized our son to keep grandparents happy. That's pretty much it. There's also something to be said for family traditions, like Christmas Eve mass. But yeah, we have much better things to do on Sunday than sit in church, and I prefer that my son has no organized religious faith (though obviously he can decide on his own when he's older).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

We baptized our son to keep grandparents happy. That's pretty much it. There's also something to be said for family traditions, like Christmas Eve mass. But yeah, we have much better things to do on Sunday than sit in church, and I prefer that my son has no organized religious faith (though obviously he can decide on his own when he's older).

I was raised Catholic, but am largely agnostic. My wife is irreligious as well, but from a Protestant background. We attempted to raise both our children allowing them to decide for themselves, but they both ended up atheists. My daughter made this clear as early as when she was four, and my son (who is seven) recently told us that "fairies aren't real, how can God be real?" Which is interesting, because we really attempted to do the whole "some people believe this, other people believe that" thing, but it didn't seem to matter. I guess kids like certainty in one direction or the other.

Every so often my wife tries to explain something about religion to the kids, and it's funny because she presumes antecedents they don't have. Like when she tried to explain to the kids that Jewish people believe in the Old Testament but not the New Testament - I had to tell her they barely even understand what the Bible is. My daughter still (at almost 12) doesn't really understand why Christmas and Easter are considered religious holidays.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Camelback

Then what's the point? Is just to be able to identify that you're part of something bigger? I quoted Crawford, but the question applies to everybody that does the same thing, attend church services only on the major holidays, gets their children baptized, gets married in a church, etc.

speaking for me and my wife (she was also raised catholic and went to catholic schools K-12), we didn't get married in a church and we never go to church (unless it's for someone else's wedding or funeral), but we did get our children baptized in a church to make grandma happy, as crawford mentioned.

infant baptism is an extremely strong religious AND cultural tradition within the catholic world, particularly so for italian-americans, and my wife is 100% italian-american, so our kids were getting baptized whether we wanted them to or not. for italian-americans, a baptism is how you formally introduce a new child to the wider family. yeah, you gotta go through the motions at church and say whatever they want you to say, then everyone goes back to grandma's house afterwards for a big family party to essentially celebrate the new child. it's just how it's done. you don't fight that unless you really, really wanna make a big stink and build a lot of unnecessary ill will among your in-laws.

[pj3000]

I have to believe that that likely 90% of people who identify as Catholic are not really Catholic, in terms of ardently and correctly practicing the faith. They are not devout.

And if you are not a devout Catholic, you are not a Catholic. Period. That's what being Catholic is. There really is no such thing as a devout Catholic. It's Catholic... the devout part is understood. You cannot be half-way there... it's the full package or you're basically a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 Protestant.

"Catholics" don't like to hear this, of course, but the faith cannot be massaged to one's preference/convenience without altering the faith.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I have to believe that that likely 90% of people who identify as Catholic are not really Catholic, in terms of ardently and correctly practicing the faith. They are not devout.

And if you are not a devout Catholic, you are not a Catholic. Period. That's what being Catholic is. There really is no such thing as a devout Catholic. It's Catholic... the devout part is understood. You cannot be half-way there... it's the full package or you're basically a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 Protestant.

"Catholics" don't like to hear this, of course, but the faith cannot be massaged to one's preference/convenience without altering the faith.

Catholicism is more or less a cultural thing at this point. My Italian side of the family (Catholic) aren't religious but still follow tradition. My other half is Episcopal (Catholic without the guilt) also not religious and don't follow any tradition.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by JManc

Catholicism is more or less a cultural thing at this point. My Italian side of the family (Catholic) aren't religious but still follow tradition. My other half is Episcopal (Catholic without the guilt) also not religious and don't follow any tradition.

Yeah, it's absolutely a cultural ID characteristic in society at large. Basically like a college fraternity... provides that sense of belonging to people who need it, and that sense of insurance for the afterlife (just in case).

That's the real funny thing about Catholicism and Christianity... the "all about me" religions.

[Steely Dan]

^ there's Catholic and then there's catholic.

the word has both religious and cultural meanings.

it's impossible to attend Catholic schools for 13 years, go to church every single sunday, jump through every single sacramental hoop, be indoctrinated into all of the church's dogmas, traditions, and norms for your entire childhood, and not have it leave some sort of lasting impression on you.

i am certainly not Catholic (because i worship our one true lord and savior, Cheesus Crust), but i will always be catholic to a certain degree.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ there's Catholic and then there's catholic.

the word has both religious and cultural meanings.

it's impossible to attend Catholic schools for 13 years, go to church every single sunday, jump through every single sacramental hoop, be indoctrinated into all of the church's dogmas, traditions, and norms for your entire childhood, and not have it leave some sort of lasting impression on you.

i am not Catholic (because i worship our one true lord and savior, Pizza God), but i will always be catholic to a certain degree.

Oh yeah, totally agree. The cultural ID is obviously very strong and influential, in our cities particularly.

It's just always interesting to me given the situation of many people who likely strongly idenitify themselves as Catholic, and they are way more often than not, nothing of the (religious) sort.

[edale]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

ridiculous. you’re adding another diocese and one that’s in another state at that. so why not throw in indiana while you’re you’re at it? plus you are ignoring the massive land area of the cinci diocese, which is ten additional counties vs cleveland’s.

Um, Covington is right across the river from downtown Cincinnati and is very much part of the metro. The three NKY counties adjacent to Cincinnati are very Catholic.

And the 'massive land area' included in the Cincy archdiocese are rural counties north of Dayton. They are all very small in terms of population. I'd say you know that, but I'm guessing you actually might not lol.

[pj3000]

And speaking of thy Holiest Name… I will take the sacrament of a Pizza Lunch today.

Praise to you, Lord Cheesus Crust.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I have to believe that that likely 90% of people who identify as Catholic are not really Catholic, in terms of ardently and correctly practicing the faith. They are not devout.

And if you are not a devout Catholic, you are not a Catholic. Period. That's what being Catholic is. There really is no such thing as a devout Catholic. It's Catholic... the devout part is understood. You cannot be half-way there... it's the full package or you're basically a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 Protestant.

"Catholics" don't like to hear this, of course, but the faith cannot be massaged to one's preference/convenience without altering the faith.

Sure they can. Every religion has degrees of adherence amongst its practitioners. If we were to limit the notion of "true" Catholics (or those of any other religious affiliation) to only those who maintain 100% adherence to scriptural doctrine, there would be no Catholics. As far I'm aware, not even Vatican dogma makes that distinction. Technically, all that a Catholic is is one who's been through the sacraments (hence, once a Catholic always a Catholic regardless of beliefs).

If anything, being able to pick and choose which aspects of the religion to follow to suit your own needs is especially the case with Catholicism. Something about dealing with a massive, ancient, bloated organization full of its anachronisms & peculiarities, corruption, scandal, and hypocrisy kind of forces that.

[edale]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I have to believe that that likely 90% of people who identify as Catholic are not really Catholic, in terms of ardently and correctly practicing the faith. They are not devout.

And if you are not a devout Catholic, you are not a Catholic. Period. That's what being Catholic is. There really is no such thing as a devout Catholic. It's Catholic... the devout part is understood. You cannot be half-way there... it's the full package or you're basically a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 Protestant.

"Catholics" don't like to hear this, of course, but the faith cannot be massaged to one's preference/convenience without altering the faith.

Uh, what is this whole post? If you're not a devout, practicing Catholic, you're not Catholic? Says who? You?

There's a huge cultural component to being Catholic. Part of it stems from the discrimination and othering of Catholics that lasted well into the latter half of the 20th century. It's not too dissimilar from the Jewish experience, where even if you don't believe the dogma, you still participate in the rituals and sacraments, attend services for the holy days, maybe observe traditions such as meatless Fridays during Lent, etc. Plus, a lot of Catholic churches were also oriented around ethnic lines, which added another layer to the cultural component. You have Italian Catholic churches that host spaghetti dinners and sell meatballs for fundraisers, Irish and German Catholic churches with their own traditions...

It's much different than Protestantism, which basically boils down to believer or non-believer.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by edale

Uh, what is this whole post? If you're not a devout, practicing Catholic, you're not Catholic? Says who? You?

There's a huge cultural component to being Catholic. Part of it stems from the discrimination and othering of Catholics that lasted well into the latter half of the 20th century. It's not too dissimilar from the Jewish experience, where even if you don't believe the dogma, you still participate in the rituals and sacraments, attend services for the holy days, maybe observe traditions such as meatless Fridays during Lent, etc. Plus, a lot of Catholic churches were also oriented around ethnic lines, which added another layer to the cultural component. You have Italian Catholic churches that host spaghetti dinners and sell meatballs for fundraisers, Irish and German Catholic churches with their own traditions...

It's much different than Protestantism, which basically boils down to believer or non-believer.

You’re talking about cultural Catholicism and following traditions. That’s fine. We’ve already been through it above.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Sure they can. Every religion has degrees of adherence amongst its practitioners. If we were to limit the notion of "true" Catholics (or those of any other religious affiliation) to only those who maintain 100% adherence to scriptural doctrine, there would be no Catholics. As far I'm aware, not even Vatican dogma makes that distinction. Technically, all that a Catholic is is one who's been through the sacraments (hence, once a Catholic always a Catholic regardless of beliefs).

If anything, being able to pick and choose which aspects of the religion to follow to suit your own needs is especially the case with Catholicism. Something about dealing with a massive, ancient, bloated organization full of its anachronisms & peculiarities, corruption, scandal, and hypocrisy kind of forces that.

People can call themselves whatever they want to call themselves and can identify with whatever religion they want to identify with.

But Catholicism is absolutely not about picking and choosing the aspects one likes. Are you 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 kidding me with that?

I’m gonna go back in time and tell Sister Rita Marie and Sister Mary Andrew that, and see how long it takes them to slap me across the mouth.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

But Catholicism is absolutely not about picking and choosing the aspects one likes.

I see that you didn't cross paths with the Jesuits, did you?

Catholicism is not a single thing.

Never has been.

Do I need to mention the Eastern Churches?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by pj3000

People can call themselves whatever they want to call themselves and can identify with whatever religion they want to identify with.

But Catholicism is absolutely not about picking and choosing the aspects one likes. Are you 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 kidding me with that?

I’m gonna go back in time and tell Sister Rita Marie and Sister Mary Andrew that, and see how long it takes them to slap me across the mouth.

Maybe you're not supposed to, but that's what Catholics do anyway.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Catholic-majority societies culturally tend be a bit...looser with the rules.