Downtown Eastside - DTES Issues

[rofina]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The plural of anecdotes isn't data.

True.

Also true; perception is reality.

Opinion; I have not seen the city this dirty, unmaintained, and dilapidated since the 1990's.

Its not a singular issue. Its a litany of issues not being addressed all the while this still being billed as "the greatest place ever."

This is textbook gaslighting, in an abusive relationship.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by rofina

Remember this post when you're reposting this graph in 2025 and things have only continued to degrade, but by then can be seen on a neat graph.

Okay. Just be careful man, saying "the government is covering up the statistics", "everyone can see it", is pretty much conspiracy theory talk.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Okay. Just be careful man, saying "the government is covering up the statistics", "everyone can see it", is pretty much conspiracy theory talk.

No one is covering up anything, I didn't say that. Please don't put words in my mouth. There is no conspiracy. There a reality unfolding that's too fresh to be seen in government stats, but it will get there too. By then there will have been untold additional pain and misery.

I said two things;

1. Citizens are not reporting certain crime any more because there is no police response. I have spent over 12 months involved boots on the ground in community organizing. This has culminated in correspondences with Jenny Kwans office, David Ebys office, and the VPD. You're right. I don't have a study to show you to prove this. I do have countless hours spent interacting with community organizers and leaders that I feel very confident in saying; assaults, thefts, break-ins, etc, are going unreported because people are finding there is no follow, repercussions or results.

2. The statistics are backwards looking. And they are. Stats are great, but if you want reality spend some time talking to people and understanding the change. I have. I spout off so much about this issue and am so passionate about it that I decide to speak from a point of at least modest experience. This City is deteriorating. It will become visible in stats given enough time to aggregate them, there's a trend in place for a reason.

I believe none of this will be reversed because there is a massive amount of denial all around. I did what I could so I could sell off and pack my bags with a clear conscience; I can, and I have.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by rofina

No one is covering up anything, I didn't say that. Please don't put words in my mouth. There is no conspiracy. There a reality unfolding that's too fresh to be seen in government stats, but it will get there too. By then there will have been untold additional pain and misery.

Alright, as long as you're not the kind to see one year of increase and ignore an overall downwards trend if we look at the stats in 2025.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Alright, as long as you're not the kind to see one year of increase and ignore an overall downwards trend if we look at the stats in 2025.

No. I'm not trying to be right. I'm trying to raise awareness of something horrible happening, that for whatever reason, many people are choosing to ignore. An outlier does not make a trend.

Quote me for posterity; I hope I'm wrong about this, and if I am, its the best possible outcome for Vancouver.

I think certain stats will continue to trend down, violent crime, homicide, murder, etc.

I think most others, the ones that affect people day to day, assault, theft, break and enter, etc will trend up.

Ill give you a perfect example; Starbucks in Tinseltown. They have a policy of allowing people to steal food. If its not a whole display of food, someone can walk in, grab a can and sandwich and walk out without paying. They will not be stopped and they will not be reported. Countless other business have similar policy for theft; do nothing, say nothing, report nothing.

How do you capture this reality in stats? Its a paradigm shift.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by rofina

This is backwards looking. We bottomed out about literally as your charts end. An unquantified amount of crime is also going unreported, in the last 12 months first hand account; 2 unreported thefts, 2 break ins, and 1 assault. All unreported because nothing will happen anyway. Anecdotes dictate that not reporting has become a trend - police simply don't bother to respond and people are not bothering to call.

Exactly. My cousins car was broken into with contents stolen and glass strewn across the road. Dispatch told him to open up a claim with ICBC. ICBC of course wanted a police report number but they informed them there was none. It was chalked up to vandalism.

The best example to see how useless stats are right now is to see how armed robberies are referred to as arm shoplifting now which is seen as petty crime.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The plural of anecdotes isn't data.

According to our community policing centre, calls in Strathcona are up about 75% YoY for theft and robbery.

I've gone from having about 1 theft or attempted theft per year to having 7 in the last year. Overall city stats are down, but stats in certain areas are way up.

Anecdotally, I was seeing many more cars get broken into in 2019 and early 2020 compared to previous years as well. The addition of the camp was definitely an inflection point though.

Not having nearly as many eyes on the street in Chinatown is a terrible thing for public safety, and the fallout is obvious.

How many times in years past have you heard of city councilors getting almost getting into fights and neighbourhood association officers getting followed home and beaten (but not robbed)?

[Feathered Friend]

Originally Posted by rofina

The increase was driven from 2018 on, and is now established a trend.

https://vancouver.ca/police/about/pu...ons/index.html


https://vancouver.ca/police/organiza...tatistics.html

Seems like a pretty good trend line to me?

I know there's a civic election coming next year, and a federal one probably sooner, but this narrative that Vancouver is falling apart, and turning into a den of villainy is already getting tired.

Certainly, some of us had some pretty bad run ins, and there's no disputing things are more visible with less activity on the streets. That said, for all of our mental health's sake, can everyone (regardless of party affiliation) just chill for a few more months, or at least until we all get a vaccine in our arms, before we start this politicking garbage?

[rofina]

A report on the first half of the year showed violent crime was up 5.2 per cent compared to last year in Vancouver, a figure the Vancouver Police Department's deputy chief constable called concerning.

"There was an increase in all areas of the city but areas like Strathcona, downtown and Yaletown recorded record high numbers," Howard Chow said in a statement Thursday morning.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/violent-crime-...-say-1.5109147

St. Paul’s Hospital statistics show a sudden rise in what the hospital calls "reportable incidents." There were 70 per year in four previous years. By July 1 of 2020, the hospital had already recorded 58, putting it on track to be over 100 this year.

Vancouver police figures show calls for service in the 1,000-block of Comox Street have tripled, from 12 in the first six months of 2019, to 37 in the same period of 2020.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/it-s-getting-o...ents-1.5074186

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

https://vancouver.ca/police/about/pu...ons/index.html


https://vancouver.ca/police/organiza...tatistics.html

Seems like a pretty good trend line to me?

I know there's a civic election coming next year, and a federal one probably sooner, but this narrative that Vancouver is falling apart, and turning into a den of villainy is already getting tired.

Certainly, some of us had some pretty bad run ins, and there's no disputing things are more visible with less activity on the streets. That said, for all of our mental health's sake, can everyone (regardless of party affiliation) just chill for a few more months, or at least until we all get a vaccine in our arms, before we start this politicking garbage?

Much respect to you for the work you do on this forum. But this City, much like most of the West Coast is falling apart. Were right there with LA, SF, Seattle and Portland. If you find that acceptable, that's great. Were free to make choices.

Not only is this not tired, its hardly addressed enough.

But I can agree to disagree. Ultimately, I made my choice to pack my bags, it wont be me paying the price for inaction now.

VPD stats are ones I citied in my conversations with local governments;

Lines like "Possession of Stolen Property" seeing a decrease is absolutely laughable. We have legalized theft, and the sale of stolen items. We in fact sanction, monitor and police the very markets these stolen items are sold at. I would expect under these conditions for stats like this to continue to decline to near zero.

The reality for communities affected? Very different.

[Feathered Friend]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

How many times in years past have you heard of city councilors getting almost getting into fights and neighbourhood association officers getting followed home and beaten (but not robbed)?

For starters, during the Marpole TMH open houses someone took a swing at Kerry Jang. I've also heard that people made bomb threats during the original Oakridge Centre rezoning process, and letters threatening violence have been sent to past UDP chairs. There's also one individual we spoke with who claims they still regularly get harassed by people that live in their neighbourhood because they supported the Independent at its public hearing.

On a personal level, we've been threated on more than one occasion by securely house individuals, at open houses, walking on the street afterwards, and even at City Hall. Honestly speaking, even though there is two of us, there's times we've felt terrified walking to our car / transit, and I have no doubt something might have happened if we weren't together.

[Feathered Friend]

Originally Posted by rofina

But I can agree to disagree. Ultimately, I made my choice to pack my bags, it wont be me paying the price for inaction now.

Genuinely sorry to hear you're leaving, you've been a great voice in the forum, and our city is poorer for losing you.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

Genuinely sorry to hear you're leaving, you've been a great voice in the forum, and our city is poorer for losing you.

Quite literally, that's a tax paying business gone, property taxes gone, and personal spending too.

I love this place, 2 decades of my life, 2 business started, countless stories.

Its disappointing for sure. I unlike you, find the current direction unpalatable. This place is out of control on so many front its nauseating.

I honestly have admiration for your patience - I read the stories you guys post and to me its 3/4 of them are unacceptable, doing business here is a nightmare.

It takes months upon months for simple tenant improvement permits. Every single things is such a production, and for no good reason. Us, the end user, or residents are just expected to pay for endless permits, costs, delays, etc. The City has literally zero accountability. None.

All we ever do any more is talk about problems or sweep them under the rug, normalize them. No action, not actual effort to maybe try a new solution.

I mean, has anyone considered that its not normal to wait for a simple BP for months? Or a laneway home for 10 months? Or a SFH for 16 months?

None of these things are justifiable, not the prices, not the red tape, not the homelessness, not the direction, none of it.

Its frustrating, really, to hear justifications or excuses - no one want to do better anymore. That's my central frustration in a nutshell.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

Seems like a pretty good trend line to me?


https://vancouver.ca/police/about/pu...ons/index.html


https://vancouver.ca/police/organiza...tatistics.html

How so?

One chart is about the rate of reported crime (an absolutely meaningless statistic) and the other chart is about the rate of actual crime (the only statistic that matters).

Regarding the rate of actual crime (the only statistic that matters), the empirical data show that although property crime decreased meaningfully between 2019 and 2020 (which is good, if true), violent crime and other crime generally held steady (not so good).

Moreover, the chart regarding actual crime does not tell us the rate of crime, property or violent, before 2019 or since 2020, so it is impossible to determine a general trend from that chart, one way or the other.

And remember, Vancouver is a big place that consists of many more parts than the downtown area. The disease of crime could be falling in the outer residential neighbourhoods, where the majority of people reside, while rising in the downtown neighbourhoods, the beating economic/cultural heart of the city on which the health of whole civic body depends. Indeed, here is what the Vancouver Police Department had to say in September about crime in the heart of Vancouver, precisely the area of particular concern recently:

Crime significantly up in several Vancouver neighbourhoods: VPD


Tiffany Crawford, The Vancouver Sun, Sep 17, 2020


Property crime was significantly up in several Vancouver neighbourhoods between January and June, Deputy Chief Const. Howard Chow of the Vancouver police reported Thursday.

During the first six months of this year, the number of break-ins to businesses and commercial properties was up 47.9 per cent compared with the same period last year.

Violent crime increased by 5.2 per cent driven by an increase in the number of serious assaults, said Chow.

“I’m so concerned about the increase in violence and serious crimes and street disorder in some of the neighbourhoods like Strathcona, Yaletown, Chinatown and the West End,” he said.

In the downtown area to the end of July, thefts had gone up 36 per cent, calls for weapons were up 11 per cent and, in Yaletown, commercial break-and-enters spiked 58 per cent.

Assaults were up 16 per cent and, in Strathcona, where a tent city has grown to hundreds of tents in the park, weapons calls were up 50 per cent.

In Chinatown, violent crime was up 17 per cent and commercial break-ins were up 60 per cent compared with this period last year.

“Sometimes statistics don’t always show the whole picture because people don’t always call police,” said Chow, who added that the Vancouver police has added more police officers to patrol the areas that have been hardest hit by crime.

Chow added there has been an uptick in the number of guns seized, both replica and real ones, including a loaded rifle that was found in a bag in an alley in Strathcona.

He said, in Yaletown, police have been called out 450 times to the areas of the hotels where homeless people were given shelter because of the pandemic. Chow said that compares with 45 calls in Yaletown during the same period.

Source: https://vancouversun.com/news/crime-...hbourhoods-vpd

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

The best example to see how useless stats are right now is to see how armed robberies are referred to as arm shoplifting now which is seen as petty crime.

I was going to say the same. Crime hasn't gone down but it has been re-categorized under less menacing categories to tell a false story. In Portland they had 150 days of violent anarch and their Downtown was literally a no-go zone, but it got labeled "mostly peaceful protesting" in official records. Same shit here, just different packaging.

The unfortunate thing here is that the plight of Downtown is making living more expensive in the safe suburbs as people are fleeing here. Some are also leaving altogether. There was recently a story of some recent immigrants that had been shocked by the violence and were looking to move on to another country. I cannot deny that same places like Singapore seem more appealing by the day...

[rofina]

“Sometimes statistics don’t always show the whole picture because people don’t always call police,” said Chow, who added that the Vancouver police has added more police officers to patrol the areas that have been hardest hit by crime.

https://vancouversun.com/news/crime-...hbourhoods-vpd

I'm glad Chow said this, its commensurate with the community experience. Police is simply unable to help with most crime happening in the City. There is no action, no follow up, nothing. The under reporting is going to continue until people feel that calling the Police actually accomplishes something.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I was going to say the same. Crime hasn't gone down but it has been re-categorized under less menacing categories to tell a false story. In Portland they had 150 days of violent anarch and their Downtown was literally a no-go zone, but it got labeled "mostly peaceful protesting" in official records. Same shit here, just different packaging.

The unfortunate thing here is that the plight of Downtown is making living more expensive in the safe suburbs as people are fleeing here. Some are also leaving altogether. There was recently a story of some recent immigrants that had been shocked by the violence and were looking to move on to another country. I cannot deny that same places like Singapore seem more appealing by the day...

Or like I mentioned above, its obvious why "possession of stolen property" is trending down rapidly; we allow the open selling of stolen goods in City sanctioned and protected markets. I would expect this stat to continue to trend down. The reality? Stark difference.

I had 2 bikes stolen last year. Did I report. Nope. Why bother? Nothing ever comes from it.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Klazu

In Portland they had 150 days of violent anarch and their Downtown was literally a no-go zone, but it got labeled "mostly peaceful protesting" in official records. Same shit here, just different packaging.

Excuse me, that was the Summer of Love. Only hugs and kisses there.

Originally Posted by Klazu

The unfortunate thing here is that the plight of Downtown is making living more expensive in the safe suburbs as people are fleeing here. Some are also leaving altogether.

I also think that the "work from home" genie was let out of the bottle as well, actually allowing this kind of flight to happen. But yeah, more and more, the downtown area is continuing to be viewed with a negative light.

[Metro-One]

I think part of why violent crime has come down is that gang violence in the lower mainland has decreased. During the late 1990s and the 2000s I remember there being a pretty intense gang war going on. That seems to have subsided quite a bit.

Also as others have noted definitions have been altered and a lot goes unreported.

I feel that the lived experiences of downtown shouldn’t be brushed aside, the current issue we have with the homeless, especially the encampments, is very serious and it does tarnish the appeal, reputation and livability for all downtown.

Please note I am not someone against social housing and homeless shelters, I even support the safe supply of free drugs, but on the flip side I also support enforcement, such as packing up all tents at 7am in parks, no aggressive panhandling, and other rules to follow while in social housing / shelters (such as no loitering along streets and selling of stolen goods). I also support reopening mental hospitals to house those mentally incapable of taking care of themselves.

My brother works downtown whenever he is in the lower mainland and his work van has been broken into twice recently, many of his tools (many of which were family heirlooms given to him from our grandpa) were all stolen and never recovered. Family and friends from all races and walks of life have all had in general an increasingly negative view of downtown.

Perfect example is Vancouver trying to promote bike culture. Yes they can build bike lanes along every street, but do you know what would really help? Cracking down on bike theft. In Japan I can leave my bike unlocked and unattended and not worry about it being stolen, when I lived in Vancouver I always had to worry about my bike being stolen and it really did prevent me from riding my bike more often.

So the deniers and enablers can continue shrugging off these concerns about homelessness in Vancouver and the direct / in direct problems that come with it, but it is a serious issue that needs to be addressed.

The approach of people such as SeymouDrake is very concerning, such as him saying how he will supply the homeless with bolt cutters to access a park intended for kids and family at night, without mentioning at all if he would then help clean up the park in the morning or monitor the park during the night, or even the fact that such bold cutters would then likely be used in bike and other theft.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

For starters, during the Marpole TMH open houses someone took a swing at Kerry Jang. I've also heard that people made bomb threats during the original Oakridge Centre rezoning process, and letters threatening violence have been sent to past UDP chairs. There's also one individual we spoke with who claims they still regularly get harassed by people that live in their neighbourhood because they supported the Independent at its public hearing.

On a personal level, we've been threated on more than one occasion by securely house individuals, at open houses, walking on the street afterwards, and even at City Hall. Honestly speaking, even though there is two of us, there's times we've felt terrified walking to our car / transit, and I have no doubt something might have happened if we weren't together.

This wasn't event that occurred in a political setting. One of Pete's neighbors had someone shooting up on their doorstep in broad daylight and so she tried to rouse them before they settled in. Dude tried to fight the lady, and Pete happened to be walking by and intervened.

That kind of stuff didn't used to happen much outside of the couple blocks along Hastings. Now it's neighborhood wide.

The thing that really pissed me off about it is that the pro-camp group tried to shame Pete for trying to help. They said it was poverty shaming.