Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

If anything, those two cities make the case of just how dominant English can be, even in minority situations. From what I can tell, even though the vast majority of people in both of those cities are hispanophone, English remains the main language of business and government.

That is because they are in the United States of America, a majority English speaking country.

[Kilgore Trout]

Yes... but Quebec City is in a majority English-speaking country too.

Just as Quebec City was founded by the French and has always had a French-speaking majority, El Paso was founded by the Spanish and it has always had a Spanish-speaking majority. The difference is that El Paso has no laws designed to promote or protect Spanish, and so Spanish remains a secondary language, despite it being the mother tongue of most people in the city.

Without laws designed to protect a local language, eg Bill 101, English will always predominate on this continent.

[MonctonRad]

I think the UN declaration on this issue is simplistic in a federal state where the subnational unit has the power to determine its own linguistic rights and linguistic character. I imagine this could be argued in court if necessary...........

[Acajack]

One thing that is rarely mentioned is that the Canadian government has the power to disallow provincial laws but chooses not to do that with Bill 101.

Maybe they quietly agree with the UN, or at least are torn between that view, the one in Ottawa and the one in Quebec City.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think the UN declaration on this issue is simplistic in a federal state where the subnational unit has the power to determine its own linguistic rights and linguistic character. I imagine this could be argued in court if necessary...........

You'd think the UN would have been aware and even have studied how Canada's subnational entities exercise power.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One thing that is rarely mentioned is that the Canadian government has the power to disallow provincial laws but chooses not to do that with Bill 101.

Maybe they quietly agree with the UN, or at least are torn between that view, the one in Ottawa and the one in Quebec City.

Maybe there is a federal/provincial truce on this issue, at least until a radical Quebec government decides to go rogue and ban all minority language education and health care services.

If Quebec ever did this, I imagine the situation could escalate rather quickly. There would be notwithstanding declarations and legal challenges flying in every direction, and from both sides.

I imagine though that if NB decided to do something radical first, that the feds would bring the hammer down on my province sooner than immediately, and certainly harder than they would on Quebec. Of course, NB made the mistake of having minority rights in the province constitutionally protected. The fact that NB is smaller, weaker, and less likely to secede from the federation makes us more vulnerable too..........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Maybe there is a federal/provincial truce on this issue, at least until a radical Quebec government decides to go rogue and ban all minority language education and health care services.
..

There is no question of doing this. Hypothesizing about it is borderline ridiculous.

[MolsonExport]

Maybe there is a federal/provincial truce on this issue, at least until a radical Quebec government decides to go rogue and ban all minority language education and health care services.

Pretty sure this would violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Thus, extraordinarily unlikely.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Pretty sure this would violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Thus, extraordinarily unlikely.

As you know (better than most), there are several other ways that the Quebec government can piss off the anglo community without touching those specific things too much.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Edwara19

I really don't see this. I moved to Quebec a couple years ago at 26, and culturally speaking, it's (Montreal and it's suburbs) really not that different from the GTA. The population is diverse and open. People, especially my generation, watch the same shows that people in the ROC do (except for Occupation Double which is just a Quebec version of Love Island). People still listen to the same Top 40 artists. The only thing that's different is the language, imo.

The only time I really felt out of place was when I moved to Saguenay to immerse myself in the language. I found people to be very conservative and not friendly - almost hostile. However, I had similar experiences when travelling to more rural parts of Ontario.

Basically, I haven't felt that people in the Montreal region have different values from the Canada that I grew up in. Still seems like the same country to me.

My experiences tend to confirm the same. The cultural differences between the Island and rest of Quebec is like light and day. Montreal is its own island culturally, with its own internationalist outlook that diverges quite a bit from the rest of Quebec.

It was this irreconcilable difference in values, that my SO was dead set on doing his CEGEP and University in Montreal, even though everyone in his home region eventually moves to Quebec City if they want a taste of le métropole. When I visited his region, his old school mates made no qualms letting me know how much they deteste Montreal, Anglophones and the plague of le multiculturalisme.

[MolsonExport]

The love-hate relationship Quebecois outside Montreal have with Montreal is similar to that which many Americans have with New York City.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The love-hate relationship Quebecois outside Montreal have with Montreal is similar to that which many Americans have with New York City.

Or Ontarians/Canadians with Toronto.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One thing that is rarely mentioned is that the Canadian government has the power to disallow provincial laws but chooses not to do that with Bill 101.

Maybe they quietly agree with the UN, or at least are torn between that view, the one in Ottawa and the one in Quebec City.

I think Ottawa knows reality on the ground. Killing Bill 101 would be kicking a sleeping grizzly. Not even Pierre "Just Watch Me" Trudeau would have been that foolish.

In general, let Quebec be Quebec is probably the mantra echoing through the corridors of power in Ottawa. Sure, push back nominally at times as one can't be a complete pushover (especially on certain causes dear to the base), but I'd wager even stuff like Bill 21 probably will stand.

Politics is a lot of the art of managing optics versus reality on the ground. 'Winning' every battle and losing the war is a thing. Pick your battles and know that dying on a hill is rarely worth it, especially when most of the population isn't terribly politically engaged.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The love-hate relationship Quebecois outside Montreal have with Montreal is similar to that which many Americans have with New York City.

Or many other places as you well know.

It's not really unique to Quebec at all though here it has the added edge of being politically expedient to play it up sometimes.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by wave46

I think Ottawa knows reality on the ground. Killing Bill 101 would be kicking a sleeping grizzly. Not even Pierre "Just Watch Me" Trudeau would have been that foolish.

In general, let Quebec be Quebec is probably the mantra echoing through the corridors of power in Ottawa. Sure, push back nominally at times as one can't be a complete pushover (especially on certain causes dear to the base), but I'd wager even stuff like Bill 21 probably will stand.

Politics is a lot of the art of managing optics versus reality on the ground. 'Winning' every battle and losing the war is a thing. Pick your battles and know that dying on a hill is rarely worth it, especially when most of the population isn't terribly politically engaged.

With the Prairies being a CPC monolith these days, the LPC doesn't seem to have any path to power without decent support in Quebec. Any "pushing back" requires treading carefully, which is why we don't see much of it.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Or many other places as you well know.

It's not really unique to Quebec at all though here it has the added edge of being politically expedient to play it up sometimes.

I'd imagine that it's a pretty common dynamic in any scenario where a major centre dominates over a larger region. Just ask someone in western Manitoba what they think about Winnipeg...

[JHikka]

https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-protecting-canadas-linguistic-minorities

Editorial: Protecting Canada's linguistic minorities

"What Quebec is seeking is, essentially, for the federal government to abandon its role in promoting linguistic duality across Canada.

For English-speaking Quebecers, there is much that is alarming in the Quebec government’s vision of how the federal Official Languages Act should be modernized.

What Quebec is seeking from Ottawa is, essentially, for the federal government to abandon its role in promoting linguistic duality across Canada. Not only that, it is calling for an end to the Official Languages Act’s approach of symmetry between the country’s official language minorities.

...

The document also asserts that Quebec has a special role in support of francophone minorities outside the province. This will probably come as a pleasant surprise to those communities, which are more accustomed to seeing Quebec intervene in court cases as their opponent, in particular in cases involving minority-language education. Historically, Quebec has been loath to see precedents established that could benefit English-speaking Quebecers.

...

The federal Liberal government, meanwhile, is poised to introduce a white paper on modernization of the Official Languages Act, to be followed by the introduction of amendments to that law. Hence, the timing of Quebec’s position paper.

Across the country, the provinces, in most if not all cases, have proven to be deficient stewards of minority-language interests. It is essential for the federal government to stand its ground and defend the federal role in supporting the country’s linguistic minorities. And that includes English-speaking Quebecers."

[MonctonRad]

LeGault wants a Canada that resembles Switzerland, although his concern for French minority communities outside Quebec is somewhat incongruous.

I wonder how he would feel if Ontario started funding English minority education and cultural institutions in Montreal (or even worse, the Saguenay)???

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

LeGault wants a Canada that resembles Switzerland, although his concern for French minority communities outside Quebec is somewhat incongruous.

I wonder how he would feel if Ontario started funding English minority education and cultural institutions in Montreal???

Quebec doesn't really fund francophone educational institutions outside Quebec at all.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I wonder how he would feel if Ontario started funding English minority education and cultural institutions in Montreal (or even worse, the Saguenay)???

Doesn't Ontario already fund court challenges against things that the democratically elected Quebec government is doing within Quebec with the blessing of most of the population of Quebec? (And no, we don't like it )