Tewin Algonquin land development [Hwy 417/Boundary Rd] | Proposed

[Tesladom]

But the cost of bringing in sewers and water and roads will benefit Taggart (who owns Tamarack), its really a win win for them.

Again the city and the NCC should get together and allow some development in non-sensitive areas of the Greenbelt, and use proceeds to buy up other ecologically sensitive lands elsewhere.
The Corn fields along Fallowfield are a prime example
Feds should also look at Central Experimental Farm development as well, we have 20-30 years of development lands available within existing servicing areas

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

That might be the silver lining to it - for those of us who were reticent for further suburban development given the already available space within the Greenbelt, this might be the best way to actually prevent or delay further sprawl. It might be that when it's costed out - it hasn't yet, at least publicly - Tewin won't be affordable for the developers, the city or (if development costs really are passed on to the buyer) prospective residents. Which means that these 445 hectares end up being space effectively taken out of the city's expansion pool, that wasn't wanted or needed anyway.

I was thinking about that. If this land proves undevelopable, then we have effectively cut the urban expansion from 1,281 ha to 836 ha.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

And to all those who object to this development, tell me how we can grow our city without expanding it while keeping housing costs affordable? I live in Orleans, 2 kids etc..., I can't afford to live inside the Greenbelt, and our household income is probably in the top 10%... so if I can't afford a $1.5M infill 3 bedroom townhouse in Westboro, then what about the the the other 90%... seriously a townhouse in Orleans in now $600k+, wtf? Even that is preposterous

No one's saying we shouldn't expand. I like the balanced densification and expansion approach council took for future growth, but expansion needs to occur as sustainably and efficiently as possible, and Tewin ain't it. There were much better options on the table. I don't see how choosing land that will ultimately cost more to develop than the other options is going to help housing affordability. This is just bad planning and bad economics, plain and simple, so I can't and won't support this stupidity.

[Kitchissippi]

Is the high cost of housing all due to land availability or the cost of labour? Ottawa is a very expensive, less competitive trades market. Identical buildings/renovations in Montreal probably cost less. Not exactly housing related but I've had things fabricated in Montreal or Toronto for a lot less than a local company was willing to bid on.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Is the high cost of housing all due to land availability or the cost of labour? Ottawa is a very expensive, less competitive trades market. Identical buildings/renovations in Montreal probably cost less. Not exactly housing related but I've had things fabricated in Montreal or Toronto for a lot less than a local company was willing to bid on.

Seems unlikely. Right now the fact that so few houses have gone up for sale while not only existing residents but people fleeing Toronto are trying to find larger houses looks like the main price driver.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Housing prices are nuts. It's cheaper for us to buy land in Vars and build an 1,800 square foot house than buy a condo in the city. It's frustrating.

I support this new development in principle, but there are plenty of outstanding questions. Servicing the area with buses (train can be added in 20-30 years, doesn't need to be anytime in the foreseeable future), but the cost of bringing in basic services, widening roads, and building on poor soil conditions might make the development as unaffordable as the inner Greenbelt.

They may be depending on recent housing price escalation to make the plan viable.

But your first statement has to be a major concern. If city prices get too high, we will be pushing more and more people out to satellite towns making sprawl much worse.

And this is the dilemma. If we constrain growth too much within the city and depend too much on intensification, prices will escalate beyond affordability, which will result in something much worse, as we push growth beyond the city and beyond the city's control.

[rocketphish]

There are a few land use images here that I haven't seen before:

Tewin proposed urban expansion land in Carlsbad Springs obtains 9-3 vote at the Planning Committee – Council to vote on Feb 10 on recommendations.

Posted by Denis
January 30, 2021

Français au bas.

The Planning Committee and Agriculture and Rural Affairs Committee voted 9 to 3 in favor to create a new community situated in the Carlsbad Springs (west of Hwy 417) area, setting the seed in the first stage of the development of a new community comparable to double the size of Blackburn Hamlet or Bells Corners, an urban area that will be 445 hectares for a future proposed urban expansion in south-east Ottawa. Choosing Tewin as a new community option would not commit the City and future Councils to subsequent expansions. Future councils however will be challenged to make more viable the extensive infrastructure and transit investments required to establish this option and also achieving the Five Big Moves. This option does create some unique opportunities that were not possible with the other options that were presented. But there was some controversy with this decision.

Developers stunned by recommendation to remove lands from boundary expansion to help Algonquins project. (Ottawa Citizen)



Several developers who own land in the South March area were set to have their high-scoring properties brought into the new urban boundary, only to be rejected by councillors.

Councillors blindsided four development companies on Tuesday by recommending the removal of high-scoring development land from inside a proposed urban boundary in the Kanata area so the Algonquins of Ontario can build a major residential community on low-scoring development land in the rural east.

A joint meeting of the planning and agriculture and rural affairs committee established which additional lands should be included in a shifted urban boundary to satisfy growth projections in a new official plan.

“The joint committee has taken a step backwards in their supposed step into the future with a new official plan. It has taken one of the biggest employment nodes and one of the only true 15-minute communities out of the equation that these same politicians drew up to start the process.”

Instead, councillors took the roughly 175 hectares of land and packaged it with 270 hectares that still needed to be slotted into the urban boundary, ultimately assigning the 445 hectares of land to the “Tewin” project pursued by the Algonquins of Ontario and Taggart Investments west of Carlsbad Springs.

Councillors heard that the land owned by the Algonquins of Ontario scored at the lowest end of the scale because of its far-flung location not near public transit and other municipal infrastructure.

But an important variable emerged.

The Algonquins of Ontario told the joint committee this week that the city should bring its lands inside the urban boundary, in part, in the name of Indigenous reconciliation. The group said it needed 500 hectares brought into the urban boundary.

Janet Stavinga, executive director of the Algonquins of Ontario, said the organization should still be able to proceed with its project with the 445 hectares.

There was a pronged approach to get the Algonquin lands into the urban boundary on Tuesday.

Coun. Eli El-Chantiry convinced the majority of the joint committee to remove the South March lands, which he argued are unsuitable for development, even though the lands received acceptable scores from city staff.

Tewin lands in south-east rural Ottawa:

The motion below was voted 9-3 in favor of the Tewin Lands on Jan 26, 2020:



Reconciliation and the Duty to Consult: Following the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s findings in June 2015, and the 94 Calls to Action, the City of Ottawa made a formal commitment to reconciliation through the continued work of the Aboriginal Working Committee and the Reconciliation Action Plan. To work towards the City of Ottawa’s commitment to reconciliation, staff acknowledged the need to have a focused partnership with Indigenous communities as a priority for the new urban boundary expansion. The City is working towards reconciliation with the Algonquin Anishinaabe Host Nation and Ottawa’s urban Indigenous populations of First Nations, Inuit and Métis communities. The City recognizes Indigenous cultures are diverse and distinct from each other, with their own histories, culture, values, symbols and spiritual traditions. Staff have participated in discussions with several different representative groups within Ottawa’s Indigenous communities. Discussions to date have focused on issues such as cultural recognition and acknowledgement, significant housing and employment challenges in the Indigenous populations, and opportunities for participation in economic development as the City grows.

The Algonquins of Ontario have been working with the Taggart Group of Companies on a vision to build a community of 45,000 in Ottawa’s rural south-east.(www.tanakiwin.com)



Proposed Tewin Lands situated between Boundary Rd (east) and Ramsayville Rd (west) in Carlsbad Springs (west of Hwy 417):



A once in a generation opportunity to create one of Canada’s most sustainable and innovative communities – Tewin: (from Tewin.ca website) “Now is the time for Ottawa to be bold, and embrace the creation of a new community based on Algonquin practices and teachings, to set a global example of sustainable community development, to enable the Algonquins of Ontario to more fully participate in the growth of the city, and to demonstrate the value of centering Algonquin practices in a large-scale, future-focused project. The opportunity at Tewin is unprecedented in the Canadian and international context, presenting the City of Ottawa with a chance to create one of the world’s most innovative, respectful, and sustainable new communities.”

Ottawa’s next One Planet Living community – Tewin.ca website:

Lynn Clouthier, representing the Algonquin’s presented to the Planning Committee explains the project and reasons why the area should become part of the urban expansion area:



The Algonquins of Ontario were the first to address councilors, and argued they should be allowed to develop a vast parcel of some 2,000 hectares in the rural south-east now, instead of waiting years longer. They have been working with developers Taggart on a sustainable community of up to 45,000 residents they call Tewin, and have held several meetings with the city. “Our time is now,” said Lynne Clouthier, the negotiation representative for the Algonquins of Ontario. “Tewin is not just about a business deal for the Algonquins of Ontario. It is a matter of being included as people… who deserve a bright, healthy sustainable future for themselves and for future generations.”

One concern is that City staff feels the property would have “very high” costs for servicing with water and sewers and want to do more study of Tewin as an option for a future community between now and 2026. The Algonquins of Ontario, disagree, and say they are backed by an experienced team and shouldn’t be made to wait years longer.

Online video presentation to the Planning committee held on January 25:
• Video Link

The areas below in pink are “Algonquin” owned properties in Carlsbad Springs (west of Hwy 417):



But not all properties will be developed. The areas below (with lines in pink just west of Hwy 417) will be left as “natural areas” and not urbanized. According to the map below the main urban development will be situated between Ramsayville Road and Farmers’ Way on Piperville Rd and down south towards Mitch Owens Road near the south community of Edwards, in south-east Ottawa.



Decisions on urban boundaries can often lead to legal wrangling and drawn-out disputes at the local planning appeal tribunal, but this time, whatever council decides for setting its new urban boundary on Feb. 10 cannot be appealed.

—————

Le projet Tewin obtient un vote de 9 à 3 au Comité conjoint de l’urbanisme, de l’agriculture et des affaires rurales.

Le projet de développement des Algonquins de l’Ontario (ADO) dans l’est d’Ottawa à 2 minutes du village de Carlsbad Springs fera partie de l’expansion du périmètre urbain dans le prochain Plan officiel de la Ville d’Ottawa, même s’il ne répondait pas à plusieurs critères établis par la municipalité.

Ce projet, appeler Tewin (prononcer TE – WIN) et qui sera construit par l’entreprise Taggart verra entre 35 000 et 45 000 habitants se rajouté au sud-est rural d’Ottawa; il va changer pour toujours ce secteur et cela à plusieurs niveaux.

Il y a quelques années, les Algonquins de l’Ontario (ADO) ont acquis des terres situées à proximité de l’entrepôt d’Amazon sur le chemin Boundary, dans l’est d’Ottawa. Ils souhaitent y construire ce nouveau quartier baptisé Tewin — qui signifie « maison ».

Ce secteur rural qui deviendra urbain sera deux fois plus grands que Blackburn Hamlet en superficie, une nouvelle communauté urbaine de 445 hectares.

« Tewin sera une communauté très differente. L’histoire, la culture, la voix et les enseignements algonquins seront fondamentaux dans le processus de consultation, de planification et de conception de ce projet », a lancé lundi la négociatrice des Algonquin, Lynn Clouthier, au Comité conjoint de l’urbanisme, de l’agriculture et des affaires rurales.

Mme Clouthier a également indiqué que les ADO ont l’intention de construire Tewin dans le respect des normes environnementales de la certification « One Planet ». Zibi est actuellement la seule communauté à Ottawa à avoir obtenu cette distinction.

Le Comité a demandé cette semaine à l’administration d’étudier ce projet en priorité dans le cadre de la deuxième phase d’analyse de terrains qui seront inclus dans l’expansion du périmètre urbain.

« On ne peut pas avoir de réconciliation sans partage des richesses, si on ne fait que donner des miettes, a affirmé cette semaine le maire, Jim Watson. Il faut que nos paroles se transforment en actions et aller plus loin que les déclarations faites avant chaque réunion du conseil à l’effet que nous nous trouvons sur un territoire algonquin non cédé. »

Rappelons que le conseil municipal a approuvé le développement d’entre 1350 et 1650 hectares à l’extérieur du périmètre urbain actuel. Un peu moins de 840 hectares de terrains à développer ont reçu l’approbation du Comité mardi. Ces terres sont situées au nord et au sud d’Orléans, au sud de Barrhaven, à l’ouest de Stittsville, ainsi que près des quartiers Findlay Creek et Riverside Sud.

Initialement, l’administration d’Ottawa prévoyait réaliser des analyses plus détaillées d’ici 2026 pour identifier le reste des terrains à ajouter au périmètre urbain d’Ottawa. Ces terrains devaient être dans les secteurs de South March, de Riverside Sud ou à l’ouest de Carlsbad Springs, ce qui écartait le projet Tewin originalement dans la première phase.


https://www.carlsbadsprings.ca/tewin...commendations/

[J.OT13]

A few comments. Haven't had the chance to listen to the meeting yet.

Coun. Eli El-Chantiry convinced the majority of the joint committee to remove the South March lands, which he argued are unsuitable for development, even though the lands received acceptable scores from city staff.

Did he elaborate, or just presented that as fact despite City staff's report that says otherwise?

“Our time is now,” said Lynne Clouthier, the negotiation representative for the Algonquins of Ontario. “Tewin is not just about a business deal for the Algonquins of Ontario. It is a matter of being included as people… who deserve a bright, healthy sustainable future for themselves and for future generations.”

Reminds somewhat of when Melnyk wanted the chance to bid for a casino. Watson told him he's allowed to bid, just as long as it was at the RCR. Why couldn't Watson say the same to the Algonquins "you're allowed to participate, just not on your own land".

My comment here is a bit of hyperbole, however it's still relevant. City staff had not worked for months to find the absolute best spot for a casino, as they did with the urban expansion. City Council made unilateral decision that RCR was the only acceptable site despite having no business case or studies to back it up.

But not all properties will be developed. The areas below (with lines in pink just west of Hwy 417) will be left as “natural areas” and not urbanized. According to the map below the main urban development will be situated between Ramsayville Road and Farmers’ Way on Piperville Rd and down south towards Mitch Owens Road near the south community of Edwards, in south-east Ottawa.

This almost makes it worse. The new development won't even be near the Queensway or Leitrim Road, placing it further from rapid transit or direct routes to the city. They only own a bunch of parcels of land, but not enough in one cluster to develop a cohesive community. Are they planning on buying more land in the area?

Council is jumping into this for reconciliation's sake, but don't seem to be concerned with any of the glaring issues. Of course reconciliation should be part of the conversation, but it can't be the only consideration.

[rocketphish]

Reconciliation adds twist to city's strategy for growth in a shifted urban boundary
Mayor Jim Watson's enthusiastic support for Tewin's inclusion in the urban boundary has virtually sealed council's approval on Feb. 10.

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Feb 01, 2021 • 6 hours ago • 4 minute read

There was a moment during a joint committee meeting last week when Coun. Scott Moffatt questioned if public transit trumps agriculture in approving land development on the edge of an expanded urban boundary.

But minutes later there was another tricky dichotomy in play, one that many councillors didn’t see coming.

Does reconciliation with Indigenous peoples trump urban sprawl?

The overwhelming answer, if you go by the committee vote, was yes.

Mayor Jim Watson’s enthusiastic support for Tewin’s inclusion in the urban boundary has virtually sealed council’s approval on Feb. 10 to allow the Algonquins of Ontario, in partnership with Taggart Investments, to plan the new community west of Boundary Road in the southeast part of rural Ottawa.

Some councillors who had votes on the joint planning and agriculture and rural affairs committee clearly struggled with the decision.

Coun. Jeff Leiper wrote an extensive explanation on his website about why he voted against including the Tewin land in the urban boundary. He said he voted “for good planning and the greatest possible mitigation against climate change.” Moffatt and Riley Brockington were the only other two councillors in opposition.

The churn of Ottawa’s municipal government is usually predictable. Bureaucrats line up recommendations on a conveyor belt and council, almost always, spits out the approvals.

The joint committee meeting, held to decide which properties should become development lands inside a larger urban boundary, veered off the usual course.

The Algonquins’ Tewin project required more land than the 270 hectares that the city still needed to add to the urban boundary. So, the committee removed a chunk of staff-recommended development land in South March and assigned it to Tewin, bringing the total up to 445 hectares, just shy of the 500 hectares the Algonquins said they needed, though they’re satisfied with the 445 hectares.

The controversy mostly lies in the staff analysis of the Tewin land, which didn’t receive a passing grade for inclusion in the urban boundary, mostly because of its isolated location far away from existing and planned city services. The Tewin project team says it can mitigate the heavy costs of developing the satellite community.

It should be noted, city planners didn’t outright dismiss the Tewin project in their work to identify development lands inside a new urban boundary. In fact, they gave councillors the option to study the lands, along with two other clusters in Riverside South and South March, over five years to see if any of the sites should be folded inside the urban boundary.

The joint committee voted to go all-in with Tewin, and do it now.

The walk-on motions at the joint committee that ultimately recommended allowing urban land for Tewin were lined up as if a strategy had been in the works for days, though council members knew about the unique project for months. The Algonquins of Ontario and Taggart revealed the Tewin proposal in October, booked meetings with the municipal politicians and explained to them that the city would need to bring the land inside the urban boundary.

The Tewin twist has potential to place in competition key interests of the progressive wing of council: preventing climate change and urban sprawl versus attempting to reconcile with an Indigenous community.

Leiper, whose politics lean to that progressive side, was in a pickle at the joint committee meeting, having to suddenly vote on either refusing far-flung development or backing an effort at Indigenous reconciliation.

Angela Keller-Herzog has appeared as a public delegate numerous times at committee meetings on behalf of Community Associations for Environmental Sustainability to push councillors on climate protection. Keller-Herzog is also a social justice advocate.

When it comes to Tewin, Keller-Herzog said the test will be the energy requirements and, specifically, if gas pipelines will be installed for a community promoted as a One Planet Living project, which calls for “zero carbon energy.” (Tewin’s promotional materials, including website information, have described “low carbon living.”)

Keller-Herzog said a zero-carbon community would be “pretty brilliant” and support the city’s climate change goals, but “we shall see if the developers are willing to walk the talk soon enough.”

Ecology Ottawa, perhaps the most prominent environmental advocacy group focused on local issues, was still discussing the Tewin matter internally.

Back at city hall, council members who didn’t have a vote on the joint committee have more than a week to dig deeper into the reports, ask questions to staff and get more information from the Algonquins of Ontario before recording their votes. Of course, committee members can always change their votes at council.

Reconciliation with Indigenous peoples has emerged as a key narrative at city hall in the early weeks of 2021.

Council has stripped the name of Langevin Avenue in the Lindenlea neighbourhood, changing it to Commanda Way, both condemning Hector-Louis Langevin’s support for the terrible residential school system and honouring the late Algonquin elder, William Commanda.

Watson wants to change the name of the Prince of Wales Bridge to Chief William Commanda Bridge.

And the city’s first director of gender and race equity, inclusion, Indigenous relations and social development services is about to join the municipal government.

Land development in the outer suburbs — and beyond — could come with multi-generational impacts to the transportation network and future costs to provide city operations.

On the other hand, council is faced with the opportunity to make a big legacy move: supporting Indigenous-led economic development and boldly going above and beyond the goals in the city’s 2018 Reconciliation Action Plan.

Any planning consequences can be another council’s problem.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...urban-boundary

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

OK, Ottawa's Median Family income is $86,000
Lets assume "modest" is median income (who cares about the other 50%!)

I think your figure is actually low. The City figure shows the median at $102,000 in 2016. That actually makes a pretty big difference to the analysis.

https://ottawa.ca/en/living-ottawa/s...d-demographics

It's also weird to me that people expect to start in a family home in a popular neighbourhood. As was pointed out, it is quite possible to start small and build up equity to move to those neighbourhoods. Or just stay small. That's what we did. Between the smaller house and very low transportation costs, it is quite manageable.

Unless a place like Tewin becomes a major employment hub, people who live there are going to have disproportionate transportation costs.

[rocketphish]

I moved the quickly expanding bunch of Central Experimental Farm messages to the... Central Experimental Farm thread.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think your figure is actually low. The City figure shows the median at $102,000 in 2016. That actually makes a pretty big difference to the analysis.

https://ottawa.ca/en/living-ottawa/s...d-demographics

That's Average, not median - think they made a mistake on 2016 census info.
Regardless.... the point is still valid whether its $86k or $100k
https://www03.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/hmip-p...erageAndMedian


If you don't allow Tewin to move ahead, then Limoges and Embrun will continue to grow, especially with more Work at Home, people may opt to move a little further out for better lifestyle, costs and more space.
Many workers may only need to commute once or twice per week to work, thus enabling them to move out more as well.
Even for myself, I've pretty much moved out to my cottage in the Gatineau Hills, I'm only 40 minute from downtown so it is manageable in the near term to actually live here full time, not my kids and wife tho...

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Even for myself, I've pretty much moved out to my cottage in the Gatineau Hills, I'm only 40 minute from downtown so it is manageable in the near term to actually live here full time, not my kids and wife tho...

Hmm... didn't you just say a little while back that you can't afford a place inside the Greenbelt?

And now it turns out you've got 2 houses!

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

That's Average, not median - think they made a mistake on 2016 census info.
Regardless.... the point is still valid whether its $86k or $100k
https://www03.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/hmip-p...erageAndMedian


If you don't allow Tewin to move ahead, then Limoges and Embrun will continue to grow, especially with more Work at Home, people may opt to move a little further out for better lifestyle, costs and more space.
Many workers may only need to commute once or twice per week to work, thus enabling them to move out more as well.
Even for myself, I've pretty much moved out to my cottage in the Gatineau Hills, I'm only 40 minute from downtown so it is manageable in the near term to actually live here full time, not my kids and wife tho...

Maybe it's median family income, rather than median household income, as family income tends to be higher I believe? Households can be any size.
Your point is valid, but I think your other reference point should be the median house cost, which in 2016 would be just shy of $400,000. There's no doubt that it is tough for a family to buy a $800,000 semi as their first house (that's more reflective of values for non-infill housing across the core neighbourhoods). The equation is a bit different when they are selling another house to buy it.

Hard to say what commuting patterns will be like in a few years. There are definitely some that will prefer the more far-flung communities, but I'm not sure how big a group that will end up being. There are still lots of jobs that require people to be at work in person, and even for the telework jobs, the idea of spending an hour and half on the road two or three times a week isn't appealing to another big chunk of people, particularly if it means fewer amenities near your home.

There's no doubt that relaxing restrictions on development can act as a release valve on housing pressures, but it is really only one factor. As a few have noted, if the cost of servicing this land, connecting it to transit and building are all high, that release-valve effect may be largely negated.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

If you don't allow Tewin to move ahead....people may opt to move a little further out for better lifestyle, costs and more space.

Better lifestyle? What does that even mean? Sounds like marketing jargon you see on those huge land development billboards. How does one gain a "better lifestyle" by moving out to Limoges or Embrun? If anything you lose anything resembling a lifestyle by moving that far out. You lose access to great restaurants, museums, art galleries, city parks, music venues, sports and entertainment events, healthcare, employment, retail shopping, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention you need to rely on a car for everything and commute into the city to have access to anything worthwhile.

So by completely giving up everything people value about cities you gain a slightly bigger house (you probably don't need), with a bigger yard (you hate to maintain), at a cheaper price.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Better lifestyle? What does that even mean?

Wow thanks there Mr City Elitist Snob!

Actually you can see the recent migrations away from the big cities as proof that there is a big appetite for people to have more space, more disposable income etc...

Back to Tewin specifically, there will be no shortage of demand for those houses, and if the city doesn't approve it, Limoges & Embrun will open up more and more land for development

[waterloowarrior]

Demand is massive in Russell/Embrun, developers are already sold out for 2021 and won't release 2022 pricing til the spring. Big challenge throughout the region is also developers driving up price and limiting supply by releasing smaller phases. This helps them capture more profits by selling 20 houses at 800k, 20 houses at 825k, 20 at 850k etc rather than 60 at 800k.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Hmm... didn't you just say a little while back that you can't afford a place inside the Greenbelt?

And now it turns out you've got 2 houses!

Yeah, so what, the cottage is a rental property, its set up to be cashflow neutral, I only rent out around 25% of the time and that's enough to cover all the costs and financing for it... and I get to use it the rest of the 75% of the time "for free"... and it appreciates in value (especially this year!)

But that's the issue with the "K" recovery, those with money and assets are getting "richer" while those without got a lot poorer, the the next generation will be royally farked because the debt will be massive and their ability to ever buy a house will be severely restricted by costs (unless parents pitch in). Restricting development will not alleviate this situation

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Better lifestyle? What does that even mean? Sounds like marketing jargon you see on those huge land development billboards. How does one gain a "better lifestyle" by moving out to Limoges or Embrun? If anything you lose anything resembling a lifestyle by moving that far out. You lose access to great restaurants, museums, art galleries, city parks, music venues, sports and entertainment events, healthcare, employment, retail shopping, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention you need to rely on a car for everything and commute into the city to have access to anything worthwhile.

So by completely giving up everything people value about cities you gain a slightly bigger house (you probably don't need), with a bigger yard (you hate to maintain), at a cheaper price.

I think you're making lots of assumptions about people's lifestyles. Many people actually like having a big yard and deck for entertaining, to let the kids out to play, or a pool to swim in. Many like gardening and yes some people even enjoy doing yard work like mowing the lawn.

Some also like having more indoor space so that all of their kids have their own rooms, or having enough space to have decent-sized groups of people offer for dinner parties, etc. Or a big basement where kids and teenagers can chill out watching movies, etc.

There are those who have RVs, boats, snowmobiles, seadoos, quads, etc. that need space to be stored as well.

Some of them may not be interested in the city delights you think they're forsaking, but it's possible that they don't care much about that stuff anyway. And of course there are some who may enjoy both. Just not at the same time.

Now, I live in an inner suburban area and I don't have any illusions about the lifestyle here. There are more than a few people on my street who obviously never use their yardspace and for whom it's simply a sunken maintenance cost.

But there are also tons of people who live downtown or the inner city who never ever take advantage of the culture and amenities on their doorstep, and who quite frankly really wouldn't be living any differently from day to day if they were in a similar-sized apartment on Principale St. in Casselman.

To each their own.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Yeah, so what, the cottage is a rental property, its set up to be cashflow neutral, I only rent out around 25% of the time and that's enough to cover all the costs and financing for it... and I get to use it the rest of the 75% of the time "for free"... and it appreciates in value (especially this year!)

But that's the issue with the "K" recovery, those with money and assets are getting "richer" while those without got a lot poorer, the the next generation will be royally farked because the debt will be massive and their ability to ever buy a house will be severely restricted by costs (unless parents pitch in). Restricting development will not alleviate this situation

I agree with your assessment of the problem. I'm not against all urban boundary expansion. I'm not even necessarily against the Tewin development (though the evidence to demonstrate that it is feasible isn't apparent).

But I don't think issues with housing prices are related to land availability. Lands added to the boundary years ago are still not built up. It's in the interests of builders to sell their houses for as much money as possible, so they release them slowly. The GOHBA would like us to believe that the urban boundary is the cause of high housing prices, but that is not the case.

The K shaped recovery could be addressed by looking at wealth inequality; the non-taxation of capital gains on real estate is certainly one way where the wealthier are advantaged at present.