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  #61  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 5:23 PM
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I was against this, but I think we can make it work.

One perk of building a brand new suburb from scratch, in an area that is now completely rural, is that we have a blank slate to work with, as opposed to the strategy of just tacking on extra parcels at the edges of already mature suburbs like Orleans, Kanata North, etc, where development inevitably has to follow the existing, suboptimal, patterns.

The high cost of building city services out here will inevitably mean the community has to be dense, as the development fees per hectare will be quite high.

As others have suggested, a commuter rail line from Tremblay to Tewin should be built. It wouldn't be that expensive. Its construction should be a precursor to any development beginning: not a single house is built in Tewin until that line is complete and operational, so the community will have that link from day 1. In the long run, the city should plan for that commuter rail to eventually become a spur of the Confederation Line, but that can be seen as a later step once the community is more mature.

Tewin should have a walkable town centre in the middle of the community, with the Tewin commuter rail station right in the heart of this town centre. There should be a strict rule that all retail, all community services, the community's high schools, and all employment lands should be in this town centre. No business parks on the fringe by the highway, no strip malls scattered all over the place.

The soil conditions in Tewin prevent high rises, but medium density development, missing middle type stuff, should be built, with density at its highest in and around the town centre and gradually becoming less dense as you move further to the edges. This way, the percentage of Tewin's population that is within walking distance of the town centre and commuter rail station is maximized.

In addition to the commuter rail line, there should be a bus route from the town centre that goes north to Orleans and one that goes west to Riverside South. Those two bus routes can also double as local bus service connecting further parts of the community to the town centre.

One way all this could be funded could be with the help of the CMHC. In the past, the CMHC actively invested in experimental new neighbourhoods. They could do so again. Indigenous ownership would mean there's a lot of "wokeness points" for governments of all stripes to score, so this kind of support is politically possible. Tewin could be a model for the sustainable, walkable, and affordable suburbs of the future.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 5:25 PM
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Tewin will be sure to deliver a healthy, vibrant, livable, inclusive, mixed-use, transit-oriented, and prosperous community.
How can it be transit-oriented? Do they expect OC Transpo service?

Who will fund a commuter rail? The Ontario government? Who will run it? The Ontario government like the GO train? This seems very unlikely.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 5:47 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by Dundas View Post
How can it be transit-oriented? Do they expect OC Transpo service?

Who will fund a commuter rail? The Ontario government? Who will run it? The Ontario government like the GO train? This seems very unlikely.
Well, Tewin would be a part of Ottawa. There's no need for a provincial service there unless you plan to extend it to Cornwall or something.

In theory it could all be paid for through development charges. In practice? Doubt.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post

Indigenous ownership would mean there's a lot of "wokeness points" for governments of all stripes to score, so this kind of support is politically possible. .
Oh, come on now. Everyone knows this couldn't ever, ever, be a consideration. Right?
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 6:43 PM
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ment-1.5890474

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Watson argued that planners and politicians often have "differences of opinion" when it comes to determining which lands should be urbanized, noting such determinations are "not an exact science."

"I know we have a point and a rating system, but I think at times you have to be flexible to recognize that when a proposal like this comes forward and it's the first of its kind, that we should take it seriously and look at its merits," he said.

Some companies that won't get to develop land as a result of Tuesday's decision called the move unprecedented.

In a joint statement, Claridge, Minto, EQ Homes, and Uniform Developments claimed politics had taken over the agreed-upon scoring process, because a parcel that had scored poorly is getting the green light while other, higher-scoring parcels did not.

Watson said he's aware some developers are unhappy, but continued to praise the proposal.

"I think this is a very good proposal, very solid," he said of the Algonquins of Ontario vision.
To my knowledge, no concept plans have been made public and the only thing shown at the public meeting was maps of land ownership (wasn't watching the whole time though). The Tewin website is also very high level.

It could be a great suburb, but how can the Mayor and councillors make these types of statements without seeing the vision? Hopefully they are not making decisions based on private meetings outside the public process? I recall other developers making presentations with well-thought out concept plans. I would love to see a concept, if there has been one released or shown at the public meeting. Perhaps it was submitted in writing instead?
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Branching off the Confederation Line would be a massive waste of money. It would only serve industrial and more Greenbelt land. After Stage 3, the City needs to focus on the urban area, not more suburbs.

Start with a bus service, and when the time comes, a GO train type service would be quick to build and relatively cheap.

If we're trying to build a complete community with its own employment base, we don't need the high capacity offered by Confederation.
To clarify, I was not suggesting that Confederation Line type technology should or will go to Tewin.

In the meeting, rail to Tewin was not even discussed. I expect the vision is bus service along the 417. The "branching" from the Confederation Line would be via buses.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
To clarify, I was not suggesting that Confederation Line type technology should or will go to Tewin.

In the meeting, rail to Tewin was not even discussed. I expect the vision is bus service along the 417. The "branching" from the Confederation Line would be via buses.
Thanks for the clarification. That would be fine. As Tierney suggested, Cyrville (which is a little used station to begin with) could be a good transfer point.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 7:24 PM
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Just noticed on the Tewin website that even their "Vision" illustration just shows a bus. They don't seem to be promising any sort of rail connection.



It would be interesting if this could provide the opportunity to create transit hub near Hunt Club/Hawthorne (the existing terminus of the 98 and home of the National Capital Business Park proposal). It's about the halfway point between the Confederation Line and Tewin.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Well, Tewin would be a part of Ottawa. There's no need for a provincial service there unless you plan to extend it to Cornwall or something.

In theory it could all be paid for through development charges. In practice? Doubt.
That's what I mean, it will be part of Ottawa so a GO style commuter rail is never going to happen. If it did

Maybe they will get a reconciliation O-Train station built out there, you never know. It be funny, if they got rail before Kanata, fast-track to Stage 3
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 8:22 PM
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It's a good thing Orléans wasn't named after another city in France. We could have had Tewin and Toulouse
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 9:12 PM
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^ Looks like there already is a Tewin Circle already, in Orleans of all places: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Te...8gEwDHoECBEQAQ
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 9:57 PM
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We do realize that there was once a railway station at Carlsbad Springs on the current VIA rail line.

Why would we consider basically a whole new city based on buses is a good idea? And then a Cyrville transfer station on top of that? How is that a good idea, when Cyrville offers no services, and desperately needs to be redeveloped without a bus station using up the most valuable land closest to the station. How would buses efficiently connect there anyways? It seems it would be a pretty awkward access from the 417.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 10:08 PM
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It's a good thing Orléans wasn't named after another city in France. We could have had Tewin and Toulouse
And I thought I was bad.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2021, 11:13 PM
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City planners flagged costly challenges for Algonquins of Ontario vision as project team soothes concerns

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Jan 28, 2021 • 28 minutes ago • 4 minute read


The rural-east land eyed by the Algonquins of Ontario for a new community could bring heavy costs because of a lack of water and wastewater infrastructure, no nearby public transit and highly sensitive ground conditions for construction, according to a city analysis of the site.

Those were some of the reasons why city planners marked the area as Category 3 land requiring “significant research, analysis and investment” if council wants to wrap the urban boundary around the site.

Lands judged as being Category 1 land were recommended for inclusion in an expanded urban boundary, largely because of less demand on city services.

This week, a joint committee of city council’s planning leaders decided the Algonquin lands should be treated like Category 1 land and brought inside the urban boundary as an acknowledgement of the city’s reconciliation efforts with Indigenous peoples.

The Algonquins of Ontario and its development partner, Taggart Investments, believe costs to municipal taxpayers will be mitigated by their own funding and creative development-related charges to cover public transit costs.

A closer look at the staff evaluation of the land — generally located south of Highway 417 between Bank Street and Boundary Road — reveals why city planners believed there would be significant challenges to building a new community in the area.

The Algonquins of Ontario and Taggart want to build a community called Tewin (which means “home”) using the guiding values of the Algonquin culture. The community could have 35,000-45,000 residents. The cornerstone of the Tewin development plan is a focus on being a One Planet Living community of sustainability.

The city considers 2,100 hectares of the 3,600 hectares of Tewin land “developable,” though the Algonquins of Ontario have told councillors it needs 500 hectares as part of the current urban boundary expansion.

The joint committee is recommending that council assign 445 hectares to Tewin.

In an evaluation of the land, the city observed there was no nearby water transmission main or sanitary collection system. The ground conditions, which include marine clay, would require all homes to have sump pumps, the city observed.

Stormwater runoff would empty into a watercourse with “sensitive valley slopes and insufficient outlet downstream,” the evaluation said.

The city pointed out a “very expensive and challenging construction” for water lines, which would add up to 20 kilometres of pipe.

“During the initial buildout of the community water quality would be a concern, which would result in greater operational costs and significant wasting of water due to the expected system flushing requirements,” the evaluation said.

Staff also said a roughly 8.3-kilometre-long sanitary sewer would come with additional maintenance costs early in the build-out because of low flows and sedimentation.

When it comes to transportation, the evaluation noted that the Tewin site is located far from existing and planned high-capacity public transit. Highway 417 would be a big help for motorists, and potentially buses, but some rural roads would need to be brought up to the standard of an urban arterial road, including in the greenbelt, the evaluation said.

The Tewin project team addressed the concerns on Thursday, saying there will be infrastructure costs covered by the project team, including costs related to the watermain system and any necessary quality management.

Upgraded water infrastructure will eliminate the existing trickle feed system, save the city million of dollars in maintenance costs and put an end to chlorinated drinking water pouring into the watershed, the project team said.

When it comes to the sanitary sewer, the project team said “the proposed trunk sewer connection to the South Ottawa tunnel takes advantage of one of the most under-utilized pieces of existing wastewater infrastructure in Ottawa.” The existing tunnel has reserve capacity for a development like Tewin and fulfills the original design intent from the 1970s, and there will be an operations plan, the project team said.

There will be no cost to municipal taxpayers for water or wastewater servicing, according to the project team.

As for the delicate soil conditions, the project team said they’re similar to communities like Half Moon Bay in Nepean, Avalon in Orléans, and Eastboro in Navan.

Two engineering firms agreed that “Tewin is capable of being engineered from a geotechnical perspective similar to what has been previously undertaken in those and many other communities,” the project team said, adding that the requirements for sump pumps would be determined through the planning process.

The project team said it would assume costs related to constructing stormwater management facilities while pointing out the One Planet Living philosophy calls for sensitivity to watercourses.

And, the project team believes it has come up with a way to help fund OC Transpo service to and from Tewin.

“The Tewin Transit Strategy commits to excellent transit service, day one, supporting a culture of transit ridership at no added cost to the taxpayer. Tewin will pay for this service through a first-of-its-kind area-specific transit development charge,” the project team said.

The Tewin plan envisions the community to integrate with the larger transit network and become part of an east-end transit loop.

Councillors have heard from residents and advocacy groups about the dangers of allowing development in far-reaching parts of the city. When the joint committee met in May 2020 to consider expanding the urban boundary, it heard from several public delegates warning the city about the cost of urban sprawl.

Council will decide on Feb. 10 if the Tewin lands should be included in the urban boundary expansion as part of a new official plan.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...othes-concerns
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  #75  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 1:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
It's a good thing Orléans wasn't named after another city in France. We could have had Tewin and Toulouse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYDC1O7nJ8E
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  #76  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 1:21 AM
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ment-1.5890474



To my knowledge, no concept plans have been made public and the only thing shown at the public meeting was maps of land ownership (wasn't watching the whole time though). The Tewin website is also very high level.

It could be a great suburb, but how can the Mayor and councillors make these types of statements without seeing the vision? Hopefully they are not making decisions based on private meetings outside the public process? I recall other developers making presentations with well-thought out concept plans. I would love to see a concept, if there has been one released or shown at the public meeting. Perhaps it was submitted in writing instead?
One of the biggest smoke and mirrors shows I've seen at Council. The majority of the members on the joint committee fell for it hook line and sinker. Strong questions were asked, answers were given that would make you think that certain members weren't going to vote for it and they still voted in favour. No plans, no real analysis shown other than 'it's our turn'.

I can see other proposals coming along in other areas of Ontario if this is successful.

There must be people in the area who weren't bought out, holdouts so to speak, who we never heard from. Maybe because nothing had been discussed or presented to date.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 3:23 PM
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Tewin project team seem to be suggesting they'll pay for every City service. The City should get that in writing. We'll let you develop on the condition you pay everything, as per your initial promises.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 3:30 PM
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Might be a future model for places like Caledonia outside Toronto for example

Buses on 417 to Cyrville station will be more than good enough for at least 20 years, I don't know why some of out there are so hung up on rail service

And to all those who object to this development, tell me how we can grow our city without expanding it while keeping housing costs affordable? I live in Orleans, 2 kids etc..., I can't afford to live inside the Greenbelt, and our household income is probably in the top 10%... so if I can't afford a $1.5M infill 3 bedroom townhouse in Westboro, then what about the the the other 90%... seriously a townhouse in Orleans in now $600k+, wtf? Even that is preposterous
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  #79  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tesladom View Post
Might be a future model for places like Caledonia outside Toronto for example

Buses on 417 to Cyrville station will be more than good enough for at least 20 years, I don't know why some of out there are so hung up on rail service

And to all those who object to this development, tell me how we can grow our city without expanding it while keeping housing costs affordable? I live in Orleans, 2 kids etc..., I can't afford to live inside the Greenbelt, and our household income is probably in the top 10%... so if I can't afford a $1.5M infill 3 bedroom townhouse in Westboro, then what about the the the other 90%... seriously a townhouse in Orleans in now $600k+, wtf? Even that is preposterous
Housing prices are nuts. It's cheaper for us to buy land in Vars and build an 1,800 square foot house than buy a condo in the city. It's frustrating.

I support this new development in principle, but there are plenty of outstanding questions. Servicing the area with buses (train can be added in 20-30 years, doesn't need to be anytime in the foreseeable future), but the cost of bringing in basic services, widening roads, and building on poor soil conditions might make the development as unaffordable as the inner Greenbelt.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 4:25 PM
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Councillor Leiper's well-reasoned statement behind his vote against is on his website, here are the main bits:

Quote:
I have received briefings from the AOO and am excited by their vision. In the end, though, I voted against the Tewin option on several grounds after listening to the debate and thoroughly reading the staff report:

I don't have the information we need to be comfortable that the development can be done sustainably when there are options that would objectively have met our climate change mitigation priorities more obviously.

The removal of the South March lands that were obvious development parcels (if we have to expand at all) are now added to the objectively worse Tewin lands.

We don't have any guarantee that Tewin will be able to build the sustainable community that they've said they will. I like some of Taggart's work and consider the Rosemount building a good example of a sensitive approach to high-rise infill, but in the suburbs I don't see a lot of that. It will take a lot of money to introduce the features that Tewin wants (such as creating an electric shuttle service to LRT) that I don't fundamentally believe will be able to be implemented without significant money from other levels of government that is far from certain.
I think the unknown costs and staff report against should be sufficient for objectively rejecting the development, but clearly the reconciliation angle makes it hard for a nuanced rejection of the project on its own merits to be politically popular. Which is clearly what AOO and Taggart intended, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Tewin project team seem to be suggesting they'll pay for every City service. The City should get that in writing. We'll let you develop on the condition you pay everything, as per your initial promises.
That might be the silver lining to it - for those of us who were reticent for further suburban development given the already available space within the Greenbelt, this might be the best way to actually prevent or delay further sprawl. It might be that when it's costed out - it hasn't yet, at least publicly - Tewin won't be affordable for the developers, the city or (if development costs really are passed on to the buyer) prospective residents. Which means that these 445 hectares end up being space effectively taken out of the city's expansion pool, that wasn't wanted or needed anyway.
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