HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #6821  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2021, 10:05 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Enough traffic is leaving Glenmore before the shrink that this doesn't matter. In effect the interchanges are forcing all to make a decision far earlier, and sorting into their lanes.
That's the problem. The right lane is so often taken away that it might as well not exist. The conventional rule of multi lane highways is "keep left unless overtaking". But in Alberta it's "know which lane will lead you to the exit, probably the middle or left lane, and move into immediately. Then go 10km/h below the speed limit".

It wouldn't be so bad if they were marked as exit lanes, but they are not, they are marked as through lanes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6822  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2021, 10:09 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
This is a huge planning fail--hopefully either the next council and/or province rejects this entire proposal and asks for a plan that actually addresses the issues that will face the corridor for decades to come.
That's hyperbole. The plan is mostly fine, but neither the city nor province care about lane continuity. It simply isn't a thing with road design in Alberta.

The additional through lanes through Glenmore could be added to the design, it's not like as soon as they vote yes that the plan is set in stone, and this will all be built incrementally anyway, over 30-50 years. It's not like they're going to do much of it any time soon, they haven't even started on the "short term" improvements.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6823  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 4:01 AM
craner's Avatar
craner craner is offline
Go Tall or Go Home
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I disagree, these countless lane drops and adds throughout the city contribute massively to bottlenecking and poor driving behaviour. Since everyone knows the right lane will be taken away shortly, everybody just stays in the middle lane. It would almost be better not to have the third lane at all sometimes if it doesn't exist long enough for people to bother using it.
This This This !
The lane dropping on major Calgary roads drives me nuts.
Deerfoot, Crowchild, Glenmore, & Stoney should have a minimum of 3 core lanes (to be 4 on Deerfoot) that are continuous throughout their length.
Even the new Glenmore bridge over Ogden Road & the tracks has multiple lane drops where it gets reduced to 2 lanes. Heading west on Glenmore toward 18th Street they drop a lane down to 2 for no reason as there is plenty of room to continue the right lane and let people merge.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6824  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 7:07 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kelowna BC & Edmonton AB
Posts: 4,299
Is this the Alberta road design complaint thread? It drives me insane. Don't get me started on the archaic overhead signs and non standardized traffic light designs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6825  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 7:13 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
Is this the Alberta road design complaint thread? It drives me insane. Don't get me started on the archaic overhead signs and non standardized traffic light designs.
Overhead signs not aligning with their respective lanes or being outright wrong are some of my bug bears too.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6826  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 10:08 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
Is this the Alberta road design complaint thread? It drives me insane. Don't get me started on the archaic overhead signs and non standardized traffic light designs.
What do you mean by "non-standardized traffic light designs"?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6827  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2021, 10:16 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Overhead signs not aligning with their respective lanes or being outright wrong are some of my bug bears too.
Signage in general in Calgary is a disaster. I don't know if it's a case of not having any standards or if they just don't care. It's another reason why I don't buy the City's 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 about safety--bad signage is dangerous!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6828  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 10:31 PM
N McCity N McCity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Calgary
Posts: 40
Well it looks like there may be one thing is not on the list for those looking for what was cut out of the project. There was a plan to replace the whole Calf Robe section with a much better and more direct alignment where everyone's car can keep speed without feeling a little wobbly. I guess they like having people drive a bit slower.

I just don't see what a buffered HOV lane will accomplish to make it worth the money. The road is a disaster because of bottlenecks and also because the volume is high enough for a 6 lane road that if you get into a lane, you're gonna have a hard time getting out of it again. For any given volume of traffic, you will have a certain percentage of drivers these days doing 10-15 under the limit and with the volume on Deerfoot if you try to avoid them (assuming you are lucky there isn't one in the left lane) good luck getting back to the lane you do need. This means Deerfoot cannot function properly as a highway because there is so much volume on it that the left lane is plugged full of slowpokes because there is just that much traffic that they end up in that lane. You could say the same about other roads in the city, but it easily is the worst when it should be better than the rest due to its importance. The traffic may warrant a full continuous 8 lanes from Beddington to Stoney in the south where you can enter and exit the new lane any time you choose. That way it can handle the volume AND have some lane continuity sanity. An HOV or toll express lane doesn't exactly solve that problem. Those exist as a cheater lane for those who have the privilege of using it and don't really contribute very well to the reduction of congestion and in the case of toll express as a way of saying "don't like traffic, you can make it go away with a little extra $"... sounds a lot like the argument against two (or more) tier healthcare. A buffered HOV lane sounds like a vanity project to say "look we are improving the road AND in an environmentally friendly way" when in reality neither is really the case. In that case I would almost rather them leave it at 6 lanes, make the lanes 100% continuous, and use the money to properly fix the design flaws and bottle necks. I don't get how they can say Deerfoot only needs 6 normal lanes at most and that some of the bottlenecks are fine if Tsuutina Trail has portions that are 8-10 lanes wide, you know, just cause we can. Oh and not to mention south of Barlow it's 8 lanes wide just because it is newer even though that isn't the busiest stretch of the road... just watch one of those will become HOV too.

Another less addressed problem with bottlenecks is that when you reach the 2 lane wide per direction bottlenecks you also get this effect where it's like drivers get claustrophobic and slow down. I don't imagine our city minds that though.

On another note I want to know what is happening with speed limits these days particularly in the SW.

So it appears that they left the 60 signs up on Glenmore EB just west of Tsuutina/Sarcee and last time I went by had covered the 80 signs just next to the casino. Most of us don't bother doing 60 here because it is outrageously slow for a road that clearly was designed better than other roads that are 100... Deerfoot. Similarly the other direction that heads toward the WCRR is 80 when the rest of the 201 is all 100. Is this due to it being an incomplete connection or do they seriously plan on leaving part of our bypass below what we expect for a large provincial highway/freeway?

The next disaster is what Crowchild has become. As you enter it from its south terminus so to speak, it is 70 until past 50th and I don't remember it being that way before the changes. Is it seriously because they left the access to 54th or is it because they left that terribly unsafe bus stop? I thought the point of a road like this was to not have direct access to wherever you like to go. As a side note, anyone know when they plan to come and complete the double turn here and open the extra lane that's currently blocked?

Then more recently I noticed that they set up another 70 sign just as you go past 26th and then they moved the 60 back to just before 17th. Again most people that have been driving on these roads for years ignore it and go the designed speed limit of 80, but you get the few by the bookers that go at or up to 15 under the posted limit. What, oh what, stupidity is running this city? If you spend the money to "improve" the road and following the improvements you have to lower the speed limits, maybe you just are admitting that you succeeded at making the road worse? Or is it so that they can confuse us and collect more photoradar tickets?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
What do you mean by "non-standardized traffic light designs"?
Some lights the arrows go first; some the arrow follows the straight through. Most left turn signals are mounted on those low vertical poles so that if you have 2 or more cars in front of you, you cannot see the light at all and some of the newer ones are mounted on the main light fixture vertically where they are easily visible (but they may not be over the correct lane). Some go yellow as soon as the crosswalk timer ends, some wait a while longer, and some still don't even have a timer.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6829  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 10:34 PM
N McCity N McCity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Calgary
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Enough traffic is leaving Glenmore before the shrink that this doesn't matter. In effect the interchanges are forcing all to make a decision far earlier, and sorting into their lanes.
Remember they are designing these roads for us imperfect humans to drive on, at least for some portion of the future. Sometimes, scratch that, most of the time the bare minimum that works on paper does not work in reality. If it did we would not be here discussing this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6830  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 12:02 AM
Mazrim's Avatar
Mazrim Mazrim is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by N McCity View Post
The traffic may warrant a full continuous 8 lanes from Beddington to Stoney in the south where you can enter and exit the new lane any time you choose. That way it can handle the volume AND have some lane continuity sanity.
I mean, if they had infinite money and no land constraints? Sure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by N McCity View Post
I don't get how they can say Deerfoot only needs 6 normal lanes at most and that some of the bottlenecks are fine if Tsuutina Trail has portions that are 8-10 lanes wide, you know, just cause we can. Oh and not to mention south of Barlow it's 8 lanes wide just because it is newer even though that isn't the busiest stretch of the road... just watch one of those will become HOV too.
I assume they're saying Deerfoot functions well enough with 6 lanes. Doesn't mean it's ideal. If they built in an empty field today with the current traffic in mind, it might look like the ring road. All of Deerfoot South of Barlow was designed with modern design and traffic in mind which is why it can fit the lanes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N McCity View Post
So it appears that they left the 60 signs up on Glenmore EB just west of Tsuutina/Sarcee and last time I went by had covered the 80 signs just next to the casino. Most of us don't bother doing 60 here because it is outrageously slow for a road that clearly was designed better than other roads that are 100... Deerfoot.
It was discussed in the ring road thread but it's at 60 so that traffic from Sarcee can cross all the Glenmore lanes onto the 37th Street exit. It's likely a political thing with the casino raising a stink about access. Once the connectivity is better around there I'm sure it'll go back to what it was supposed to be - 80!

Quote:
Originally Posted by N McCity View Post
The next disaster is what Crowchild has become. As you enter it from its south terminus so to speak, it is 70 until past 50th and I don't remember it being that way before the changes. Is it seriously because they left the access to 54th or is it because they left that terribly unsafe bus stop? I thought the point of a road like this was to not have direct access to wherever you like to go.

Then more recently I noticed that they set up another 70 sign just as you go past 26th and then they moved the 60 back to just before 17th.
So in the world of road design, if you are changing a road, you can't just leave problems alone and get away with it. It's a professional liability. There's a good chance that instead of fixing some issues like the bus stop, the access at 54th, or other hazards, they just lower the speed of the road so it falls into current standards. I bet some people at the city wanted to remove that access at 54th, but politics (aka angry residents and councilors) made that impossible. So what we get is the end result.

Another guess from me for over the Bow River is that they had to break some design standards to get the extra lanes over the river, forcing them to lower the speed limit. Does it feel stupid? Yeah - I don't think it feels like it needs to be 60. Who wants to take responsibility for it if something bad happens though?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6831  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 12:11 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrim View Post
So in the world of road design, if you are changing a road, you can't just leave problems alone and get away with it. It's a professional liability. There's a good chance that instead of fixing some issues like the bus stop, the access at 54th, or other hazards, they just lower the speed of the road so it falls into current standards. I bet some people at the city wanted to remove that access at 54th, but politics (aka angry residents and councilors) made that impossible. So what we get is the end result.

Another guess from me for over the Bow River is that they had to break some design standards to get the extra lanes over the river, forcing them to lower the speed limit. Does it feel stupid? Yeah - I don't think it feels like it needs to be 60. Who wants to take responsibility for it if something bad happens though?
It does feel stupid but these slower sections are right before the end of the freeway anyway, so it doesn't matter really. In the year 2100 when the Kensington section is upgraded, it will be more annoying though.

And the Bow Bridge definitely feels much narrower with tighter corners, so I'm not surprised it's not 80km/h.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6832  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2021, 8:51 PM
N McCity N McCity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Calgary
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrim View Post
I mean, if they had infinite money and no land constraints? Sure!
The addition of a buffered HOV lane both directions in this section of the corridor will take more money and land. This argument does not follow. Land north of 17th is not an issue either because they have a decently wide grass median they can put lanes in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrim View Post
I assume they're saying Deerfoot functions well enough with 6 lanes. Doesn't mean it's ideal. If they built in an empty field today with the current traffic in mind, it might look like the ring road. All of Deerfoot South of Barlow was designed with modern design and traffic in mind which is why it can fit the lanes.
But it really doesn't and the fact that they are adding an HOV lane both directions shows that they know it doesn't either. Why spend the money on a buffered lane that takes more land and more signage than a normal lane if it is functions well enough as is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrim View Post
It was discussed in the ring road thread but it's at 60 so that traffic from Sarcee can cross all the Glenmore lanes onto the 37th Street exit. It's likely a political thing with the casino raising a stink about access. Once the connectivity is better around there I'm sure it'll go back to what it was supposed to be - 80!
I see. TTN pkwy is open now meaning that "exit" from the Sarcee flyover can be removed but I guess they've basically stopped all work for the winter just 'cause and they're not coming to remove that any time soon. It's just oversight though because the casino can safely be accessed at full speed anyway and there isn't even close to enough traffic for it to be a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrim View Post
So in the world of road design, if you are changing a road, you can't just leave problems alone and get away with it. It's a professional liability. There's a good chance that instead of fixing some issues like the bus stop, the access at 54th, or other hazards, they just lower the speed of the road so it falls into current standards. I bet some people at the city wanted to remove that access at 54th, but politics (aka angry residents and councilors) made that impossible. So what we get is the end result.
Well they made that in/out access a lot safer than it used to be. The bus stop is the same as it was and the only problem is often transit drivers didn't mind cutting out in front of traffic going freeway speeds. And then there's the fact that the 70 zone stretches a bit past all of that. If they decided before that it could be 80 with a worse design, why is it 70 now? What changed? City council changed and this one seems to like slow drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrim View Post
Another guess from me for over the Bow River is that they had to break some design standards to get the extra lanes over the river, forcing them to lower the speed limit. Does it feel stupid? Yeah - I don't think it feels like it needs to be 60. Who wants to take responsibility for it if something bad happens though?
I understand why they would've considered lowering the speed, but terrible design aside, it functions well enough with all of us still going 70-80. If it was up to me I would've left the on ramp from Bow Trail where it was joining from the left side and just buffered the lane so that traffic could not move all the way over to get to Memorial Dr. Maybe 70 would've been an appropriate reduction for this stretch, but 60? there's two lane, undivided roads that are 60, why is objectively better road the same speed as one of those? I don't see why that direction of traffic needs to be able to access Memorial that badly that you have to make a terrible design. The problem with standards on a road like that is that they more or less make the standards so they can do what they want. MacLeod has designs that are just as bad and just as tight with just as much traffic and the speed is 80. What is even worse is the fact that they made the 60 zone longer and added a 70 zone before it for no other reason than that they like us driving slow. There is no reason that they need to begin 60 at 17th if they problem is the river crossing. That part is the real problem I have with it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6833  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 7:25 PM
Mazrim's Avatar
Mazrim Mazrim is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by N McCity View Post
What is even worse is the fact that they made the 60 zone longer and added a 70 zone before it for no other reason than that they like us driving slow. There is no reason that they need to begin 60 at 17th if they problem is the river crossing. That part is the real problem I have with it.
You keep saying things like this so definitively without even knowing all the background work that went into those decisions. How do you know all the constraints and design checks they did? Did you run the safety audits? Have you done all the clear zone checks, shy distance checks, sight distance checks and more? You seem to be in this mindset that if was done a certain way before, that makes it absolutely okay today like nothing ever changes with design standards.

We can only speculate as we didn't work on the construction, but I'm feeling pretty confident in saying that they don't do the speed limit changes on major roadways only to slow people down. There was probably a design standard/legal reason they've made those speed changes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6834  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2021, 8:55 PM
craner's Avatar
craner craner is offline
Go Tall or Go Home
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,418
Anybody have any articles listing what was announced in the budget for Calgary roads ?
I heard something about some funding for the Deerfoot upgrades.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6835  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2021, 1:45 AM
davee930's Avatar
davee930 davee930 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by craner View Post
Anybody have any articles listing what was announced in the budget for Calgary roads ?
I heard something about some funding for the Deerfoot upgrades.
To finally make it a real freeway? 3 lanes minimum the whole way through Calgary?

Canada 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 at roads. I wish we weren't so damn bloated as a country.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6836  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 2:40 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kelowna BC & Edmonton AB
Posts: 4,299
Isn't there just one really short two lane section on the Deerfoot? Is the Deerfoot provincial or municipal jurisdiction?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6837  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 6:46 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,498
It's effectively 2 lanes from Glenmore to south of the bow after Bow Bottom Trail.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6838  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 7:47 PM
Mazrim's Avatar
Mazrim Mazrim is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,407
The only places where there are physically two through lanes are very short stretches overall, but the fix to actually get three continuous lanes the whole way is a bit more complicated than that.



The government's plan is just...add a new lane in each direction the whole length of Deerfoot, I guess.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6839  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2021, 9:58 PM
YYCguys YYCguys is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrim View Post
The government's plan is just...add a new lane in each direction the whole length of Deerfoot, I guess.
How many additional lanes is there space for on each side for entire length of it? Or in a fantasy world, which other north/south road between Deerfoot and Stoney West could be built out to function like a Deerfoot v2.0?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6840  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 12:42 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by YYCguys View Post
How many additional lanes is there space for on each side for entire length of it? Or in a fantasy world, which other north/south road between Deerfoot and Stoney West could be built out to function like a Deerfoot v2.0?
You can see the full plans here. I can't see any major works starting until Calgary is firmly back in growth mode and Deerfoot is consistently packed though. We don't have money to waste on anything that isn't strictly necessary any more.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:43 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.