Calgary Roads

[milomilo]

Agreed again. I'd say continuing at about the pace of road construction we have been for the last few years within the city would be appropriate rather than wholescale rebuilding of Deerfoot. We still have a few more years of ring road building anyway, we can start thinking about some bigger projects after that.

[N McCity]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

For me for roads it falls down to:

deerfoot debottlenecking: yes, probably good

deerfoot 4 laning for the entire length: probably not worth it


A consideration also for me is that roads are mostly a user pay system, bound by a quasi social contract between road users and the government. Sure the funds are fungible, readily transferable to other uses. But until we want to break down that tight relationship, we should tread lightly.



I also don't think the province's finances are in such a bad shape that we need to start thinking like the province needs to adopt structural adjustment type austerity. Our government spending as a percentage of GDP is under control, and lower than every other province.

By the time they do though and fix all the bad weave spots, chokes, bottlenecks, dangerous stretches, and stupid designs they’ve done work on most interchanges between the beginning and end of where they want to make it an 8 lane road so at that point most of the work is done and money spent anyway considering the section in question is Anderson to Beddington, which is a considerably large stretch of the road but objectively is the worst stretch of the road. Definitely though if it were an either or situation, bottlenecks and bad designs are far more important than lanes.

What I would love to see is something done to the horrible weave that happens if you enter NB from 130th SE and have to cross over far enough to avoid Barlow. I’ve nearly lost my car here more than once party thanks to people going 80-90.

[Corndogger]

Feature length article from the November 2020 edition of Business Elite Canada magazine on the Crowchild Trail bridge project.

Calgary's Unprecedented Crowchild Trail Upgrades Project

Source: https://www.businesselitecanada.com/emag/nov_2020/mobile/index.html#p=36

[ggopher]

The City of Calgary has finally released the final report on the Deerfoot Trail Study.

Based on the contents of the long-term corridor plan, the following major components have been identified, in order of priority:

1. Mainline Widening (in the form of a HOV lane)
2. Glenmore Trail Interchange
3. Anderson Road / Bow Bottom Trail Interchange Area including the Collector Distributor System
4. 16 Avenue N.E. Interchange Improvements
5. 50 Avenue S.E. Connector
6. Memorial Drive to 17 Avenue S.E. Area

SHORT TERM (next 10 years):
Phase 1
• Add capacity to Deerfoot Trail in the form of a new buffer separated median High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lane in each direction between Barlow Trail
and Airport Trail.
• Other minor improvements including grade separating the entrance and exit ramps between Memorial Drive and 17 Avenue S.E. to remove weaving operations along Deerfoot Trail in both directions; providing a direct connection between 11 Street N.E. and Deerfoot Trail northbound which represents an element of the future full interchange; widening the northbound loop ramp from Deerfoot Trail to Anderson Road / Bow Bottom Trail to accommodate two lanes; and creating an early northbound exit ramp to Southland Drive – prior to the interchange at Anderson Road / Bow Bottom Trail to remove weaving operations along Deerfoot Trail between the two interchanges.

Phase 2
• Glenmore Trail Interchange improvements – including Heritage Drive and Blackfoot Trail interchange modifications
• Country Hills Boulevard Interchange improvements
• 128 Avenue N.E. Interchange

MEDIUM TERM (11 to 20 years):
Phase 3
• Anderson Road / Bow Bottom Trail Interchange improvements including
- Collector / Distributor System – between Barlow Trail and Southland Drive
- Southland Drive Interchange reconstruction
- 11 Street S.E. Interchange modifications (southbound)
- Heritage Meadows Way Interchange modifications (northbound)
- 24 Street S.E. Interchange modifications
- Barlow Trail Interchange modifications

Phase 4
• 16 Avenue N.E. interchange improvements
Deerfoot Trail to Barlow Trail
- 16 Avenue / 19 Street N.E. interchange
- 16 Avenue / Barlow Trail N.E. interchange reconfiguration
- New 16 Avenue N.E. overpass structure at Deerfoot Trail

LONG-TERM (beyond 20 years)
Phase 5
• 50 Avenue S.E. Connector
• Beddington Trail Interchange completion
• McKnight Boulevard Interchange improvements
• Airport Trail Interchange improvements

Phase 6
• Memorial Drive Interchange improvements
- Construct new Southbound to Eastbound ramp
- Remove existing at-grade intersections
• 17 Avenue S.E. Interchange
- Reconfigure interchange to align Blackfoot Trail to Barlow Trail
- Reconfigure Memorial Drive / Barlow Trail interchange

Total cost estimate of the Full Long Term Plan is $2.25 Billion

Full Report: https://www.calgary.ca/content/dam/www/transportation/tp/documents/projects/current-planning-projects/deerfoot-study/deerfoot-trail-study-phase-4-final-recommendation-report-2020.pdf

Of course the most interesting part of any report is figuring out what was NOT included. That will take a bit more digging.

[Mazrim]

Feels like they're just blindly going ahead with the widening/HOV lanes regardless of the benefit. I just want bottlenecks fixed, which is not what the HOV lanes will do.

I'm not an expert but I also really don't get how the greenhouse gas reductions which apparently save millions somehow offset the billions in costs for the upgrades?

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Feels like they're just blindly going ahead with the widening/HOV lanes regardless of the benefit. I just want bottlenecks fixed, which is not what the HOV lanes will do.

I'm not an expert but I also really don't get how the greenhouse gas reductions which apparently save millions somehow offset the billions in costs for the upgrades?

The lowest hanging fruit on Deerfoot is addressing the bottlenecks, i.e. locations where traffic suddenly becomes stop and go. I would have thought the biggest bang for the buck would come from removing bottlenecks at Glenmore and again at Anderson.

Also, HOV is a concept from the 1970's. A variably tolled express lane (possibly with free use by HOV) would be far more effective.

[craner]

I’m just starting to read the report.
I noticed on page 4 of the report itself they incorrectly list a future interchange at 128 Street SE (it should be 128 Avenue NE).

[craner]

Ok, finished reviewing the Deerfoot report - a few observations:

- HOV Lanes: I don’t have a problem with the added lane being HOV provided they can maintain a minimum of 3 general purpose lanes for the full length of the corridor without lane drops everywhere (which they seem to have done).

- Glenmore interchange: concerned the two loops on the west side (SB-EB & WB-SB) don’t allow for adequate weaving distance (ie. cloverleaf problems). There is also only 2 through lanes shown on Glenmore through the interchange (should be 3 IMO).

- Memorial interchange: glad they went with the option that eliminates all the existing surface intersections/lights.

- 16th Ave interchange: sad to see they are not eliminating the existing surface intersections for the turning movements. I did a quick design that maintains most of the existing infrastructure over Deerfoot with a few tweaks that eliminates all the lights.
There is also only 2 through lanes shown on the new 16th Ave bridges over Deerfoot (should be 3 IMO).

- Airport Tr. & McKnight interchanges: there will still be surface intersections with lights to permit some of the turning movements - WTF

That’s all I have for now - looking forward to reading other people’s thoughts.

[ImmortalHawk]

Originally Posted by craner

- Airport Tr. & McKnight interchanges: there will still be surface intersections with lights to permit some of the turning movements - WTF

Wait weren't they trying to convert Airport Trail into something of a free-flowing highway-ish road? Why would they do that??

Gonna be interesting to see how the whole Blackfoot/17 Ave/Barlow complexity will work out in the long run...

Also, I'm curious as to what you had in mind for the 16th ave interchange, what did your design look like?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by ImmortalHawk

Wait weren't they trying to convert Airport Trail into something of a free-flowing highway-ish road? Why would they do that??

Gonna be interesting to see how the whole Blackfoot/17 Ave/Barlow complexity will work out in the long run...

Also, I'm curious as to what you had in mind for the 16th ave interchange, what did your design look like?

Looks good to me. Only one movement has a signal.

[craner]

^Exactly. Why leave one movement requiring a signal ?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by craner

^Exactly. Why leave one movement requiring a signal ?

Because it comes from and links to a road that will have traffic lights forever (96th Ave)

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by craner

^Exactly. Why leave one movement requiring a signal ?

Who cares? And what MT said.

If that movement sees the 10x increase in demand or whatever it might be that needs its own movement, we can build one then.

[craner]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Because it comes from and links to a road that will have traffic lights forever (96th Ave)

Ok fair enough. At least you don’t need to stop at a light to access Deerfoot from the airport or vise-versa.
That said, I would have just completed the last movement (I sound like Mozart or Beethoven )

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by craner

Ok, finished reviewing the Deerfoot report - a few observations:

- Glenmore interchange: concerned the two loops on the west side (SB-EB & WB-SB) don’t allow for adequate weaving distance (ie. cloverleaf problems). There is also only 2 through lanes shown on Glenmore through the interchange (should be 3 IMO).

That’s all I have for now - looking forward to reading other people’s thoughts.

Ugh.... Really? Have they learned nothing?! Deerfoot and Glenmore is one of the biggest choke points today because Deerfoot goes from 3 lanes to 2 over that bridge. Great they're going to fix the Deerfoot but they're going to set up Glenmore Trail to have an identical problem requiring an identical solution at the same time. That's absolutely piss poor planning in my view.

[craner]

^Looking at the Glenmore design in the report again it appears they are trying to salvage the exiting bridge structure which would explain why they can only get 2 through lanes on Glenmore below (& maintaining the west loop ramps)
Time to bite the bullet and fix this clusterF once and for all - not this band-aid solution they’ve proposed. It’s the intersection of two of Calgary’s busiest & most important roads.

[MalcolmTucker]

Glenmore is a slower speed road, so doesn't need the same treatment. IIRC 80 kph is right at the sweet spot to maximize capacity. The flow differences on Glenmore are:


West of Blackfoot: 136,000 West of Deerfoot: 112,000 East of Deerfoot: 65,000


Which is reflected back in the design having 2 through lanes. Plus Blackfoot to east bound Glenmore is entirely diverted to the collector road, and Deerfoot and Glenmore to Blackfoot are diverted to the collector road.



TLDR: for various reasons, 2 through lanes is the correct choice.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

TLDR: for various reasons, 2 through lanes is the correct choice.

I disagree, these countless lane drops and adds throughout the city contribute massively to bottlenecking and poor driving behaviour. Since everyone knows the right lane will be taken away shortly, everybody just stays in the middle lane. It would almost be better not to have the third lane at all sometimes if it doesn't exist long enough for people to bother using it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I disagree, these countless lane drops and adds throughout the city contribute massively to bottlenecking and poor driving behaviour. Since everyone knows the right lane will be taken away shortly, everybody just stays in the middle lane. It would almost be better not to have the third lane at all sometimes if it doesn't exist long enough for people to bother using it.

Enough traffic is leaving Glenmore before the shrink that this doesn't matter. In effect the interchanges are forcing all to make a decision far earlier, and sorting into their lanes.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Enough traffic is leaving Glenmore before the shrink that this doesn't matter. In effect the interchanges are forcing all to make a decision far earlier, and sorting into their lanes.

But it does matter. One need only look at what happens on Glenmore EB approaching 14 Street. If the City was truly concerned about safety which we know they're not, Glenmore would be a minimum of three lanes everywhere. This is a huge planning fail--hopefully either the next council and/or province rejects this entire proposal and asks for a plan that actually addresses the issues that will face the corridor for decades to come.