DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by laniroj

^Sharp looking deal. I'm excited about this one. Sort of reminds me of architecture in Chicago's north loop or NYC's meatpacking district. If you've never been to those areas, they are filled with quality design large and small.

Agreed. This is one slick building that will look quite nice in Arapahoe Square. If Kenect ended up breaking ground on the next block over, this would contribute a lot towards energizing the lower end of AS.

[kemachs]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Agreed. This is one slick building that will look quite nice in Arapahoe Square. If Kenect ended up breaking ground on the next block over, this would contribute a lot towards energizing the lower end of AS.

Not only is the architecture/urban form better than previous developments in AS, but it appears to include retail space - something the neighborhood needs if it wants to become a dynamic place where people want to spend time. I have a suspicion that 1-story retail structures like Woods Boss could be demolished in the long term, so what replaces those buildings is crucial.

Developers in Arapahoe Square & city leadership could learn a thing or two from Little Italy in San Diego, which is a similar neighborhood (residential, adjacent to the CBD, plenty of midrise development activity). The difference is that the ground-level restaurants/patios and Piazza della Famiglia make it feel very unique, even with most of the buildings and the piazza itself being newer construction. Hell even LoDo w/ Union Station as the plaza is a decent comparison, except it and Gaslamp are stadium districts, so it's a different vibe with different retail environments. Any reason we couldn't see a public/private anchor like that here, though?

I also think breaking up superblock buildings like Alexan AS, even if it's part of the same development, would go a long way in making them feel more pedestrian friendly. I notice on their website they won't even show the outside of the building, which I find pretty hilarious - even they recognize it's hideous and imposing.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Agreed. This is one slick building that will look quite nice in Arapahoe Square. If Kenect ended up breaking ground on the next block over, this would contribute a lot towards energizing the lower end of AS.

Check this out; Sounds a whole lot like what X communities is doing.

https://rebusinessonline.com/akara-partn...t-phoenix-apartment-community-this-fall/

Kenect will offer 320 furnished and unfurnished units, including junior studios, one-bedroom, one-bedroom flex and three-bedroom/three-bath floor plans. The community will also offer 24-hour amenities, including concierge services, studio fitness classes, social programming, virtual events, 8,000 square feet of ground-floor retail space, 7,000 square feet of co-working space and a rooftop pool.

I didn't recall but Nashville does have some rent by bed-space units. Their co-working space has memberships available to non-residents that includes access to the other amenities. Offering 3 months free rent reflects COVID times. It appeared that half the units in Nashville were still available.

It sounds like when they built their Phoenix project they upped their options with upscale touches. They also offer a 'membership' to residents.

Kenect Phoenix will also offer residents Kenect Exclusive Experiences (KEE) with exclusive access to Kenect-branded events and fitness classes. Residents receive priority reservations for events, such as private concerts in the KEE Studios, demos with local mixologists and chefs, in-house artist classes and pet-friendly happy hours, as well as pop-up coworking and networking events.

For travelers, Kenect memberships are good wherever there's a Kenect project.

Supposedly Akara has secured a JV partner for a Cleveland project. Not sure what the near-term prospects are for Denver. The units in Phoenix have only been available for move-in since November IRRC.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

this movement against parking is pretty weird. if cars can be "clean", what's the big objection?

the reality is that electric cars are about to take over everything. they aren't going away, despite the crazy predictions otherwise. trains are sure to be obsolete, again, as well.

so instead of having places to park these clean vehicles, we're going to count on what? uber? we're happy to support an industry that has no worker protections for what?

eventually autonomous vehicles will take over and parking won't be needed, but that seems a little farther out. Parking being build now should always be made in a way to be converted to something else later anyway.

back to the point, what's the deal with getting rid of parking everywhere? i understand giant empty lots in central areas are silly, but what's wrong with decks? again, the global warming argument will be moot once these solar charged cars are in place.

Even with autonomous vehicles, I will want my own and need a place to park it. I leave so much 🞵🞵🞵🞵 in my car. I'll leave even more 🞵🞵🞵🞵 inside if a robot is driving and I can watch Netflix and bill a few hours in leisure.

[rds70]

Potential Parq II at 10th and Cherokee. 17 stories, 324 units, 7,000 square feet of retail:

[TakeFive]

"Two is company but three's a crowd" - so why not?

Originally Posted by rds70

Potential Parq II at 10th and Cherokee. 17 stories, 324 units, 7,000 square feet of retail:

Wasn't it BG918 who was describing how cool it was to live at The Parq?


Pair of 5-story apartment buildings planned in Denver's Highland neighborhood
Jan 12, 2021 By James Rodriguez – Reporter, Denver Business Journal

Denver-based Corum Real Estate Group is in the early stages of planning two five-story apartment buildings at the intersection of Speer Boulevard and Firth Court, in the Highland neighborhood, according to a concept plan recently submitted to the City of Denver.

The two buildings, which reach the maximum allowable height under the current zoning, would be built on roughly 1.2 acres. The larger of the two, located at 2801 Firth Court, would total 154,417 square feet and consist of 96 residential units. The smaller building, located at 2800 Speer Blvd., would include 83 units in a 110,588-square-foot structure.

They like the neighborhood.

"Our Kasserman project in LoHi has been very successful and we have enjoyed being part of the neighborhood and integrating into the fabric of the community," Fletcher said in an email. "We look forward to growing our presence here and working with the neighborhood groups on the development of this project should it come to fruition."

The Kasserman - 2680 18th St

.....
Images courtesy The Kasserman.com

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Great to see more infill along the Speer corridor. Now take one lane of traffic and create a BRT from Cherry Creek State Park to the Aurarian Campus

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by rds70

Potential Parq II at 10th and Cherokee. 17 stories, 324 units, 7,000 square feet of retail:

Looks like it might be the whole block- guess that means the 955 Bannock office project is likely dead.

[rds70]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Looks like it might be the whole block- guess that means the 955 Bannock office project is likely dead.

I think the site is an “L” around the 955 Bannock building.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Great to see more infill along the Speer corridor. Now take one lane of traffic and create a BRT from Cherry Creek State Park to the Aurarian Campus

I've agued in the past for light rail from Civic Center Station down Broadway to Cherry Creek/Leetsdale with a (Phase One) end-of-line station at the SEC of Parker Rd and Mississippi. Light rail would also extend south down Broadway from Cherry Creek to the Broadway Station.

BRT would come with several issues. The City of Denver boundary ends at So Quebec where it becomes Unincorporated Arapahoe County and then becomes Aurora at Iliff Ave IIRC. Not sure the voters outside of Denver would like your plan.

From "Cherry Creek Park" you can already grab the H Line light rail at Nine Mile Station and ride into the heart of downtown. If you prefer Civic Center Station then bus route 83 goes there from Nine Mile Station. If you're thinking closer to Quincy Ave there's two bus routes that service that area including Smoky Hill Rd that stop at Nine Mile Station.

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I've agued in the past for light rail from Civic Center Station down Broadway to Cherry Creek/Leetsdale with a (Phase One) end-of-line station at the SEC of Parker Rd and Mississippi. Light rail would also extend south down Broadway from Cherry Creek to the Broadway Station.

BRT would come with several issues. The City of Denver boundary ends at So Quebec where it becomes Unincorporated Arapahoe County and then becomes Aurora at Iliff Ave IIRC. Not sure the voters outside of Denver would like your plan.

From "Cherry Creek Park" you can already grab the H Line light rail at Nine Mile Station and ride into the heart of downtown. If you prefer Civic Center Station then bus route 83 goes there from Nine Mile Station. If you're thinking closer to Quincy Ave there's two bus routes that service that area including Smoky Hill Rd that stop at Nine Mile Station.

Hi there. I usually just lurk for development news, but this post stirred me to join.

We really need to stop relying on surface transportation proposals to move Denver around. Anything we do at street level will just be stuck in traffic no matter how well-intended signal priority, dedicated space/lanes, etc.

Seattle, Austin, Pittsburgh and others are now doing subway where it makes sense. Denver is beyond the point of needing to go underground to connect Union Station, Civic Center, Cap Hill, Cheesman, Cherry Creek, Glendale, and Colorado/25.

If you could get between any of those stops in 90 seconds or less that is truly a game-changer that would take cars off the road. Anything else will be another boondoggle for an underutilized light rail or whatever. Downtown Denver to Cherry Creek in 4-5 minutes flat - think about it! It's also the ONLY way for Denver to really serve its densest, highest transit-propensity neighborhoods.

It's 2021. Subway or bust for Denver. No more LRT or BRT boondoggles, and the suburbs have had more than enough of RTD's focus to the exclusion of our densest neighborhoods like Cap Hill.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Hi there. I usually just lurk for development news, but this post stirred me to join.

We really need to stop relying on surface transportation proposals to move Denver around. Anything we do at street level will just be stuck in traffic no matter how well-intended signal priority, dedicated space/lanes, etc.

Seattle, Austin, Pittsburgh and others are now doing subway where it makes sense. Denver is beyond the point of needing to go underground to connect Union Station, Civic Center, Cap Hill, Cheesman, Cherry Creek, Glendale, and Colorado/25.

If you could get between any of those stops in 90 seconds or less that is truly a game-changer that would take cars off the road. Anything else will be another boondoggle for an underutilized light rail or whatever. Downtown Denver to Cherry Creek in 4-5 minutes flat - think about it! It's also the ONLY way for Denver to really serve its densest, highest transit-propensity neighborhoods.

It's 2021. Subway or bust for Denver. No more LRT or BRT boondoggles, and the suburbs have had more than enough of RTD's focus to the exclusion of our densest neighborhoods like Cap Hill.

.....
Source

FWIW, many props to Seattle but Austin is a long, long, long way from having any subway - but they could use it. The one advantage with Denver is it already has two hubs that bookend downtown: Denver Union Station and Civic Center Station.

But anyone willing to one-up Elon Musk is Okay in my book.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

I'm interested to see how the Boring project turns out in Las Vegas. Maybe that might help catalyze underground transportation in Denver. I'm quite ignorant on the economics and engineering of underground tunnels systems. I've always just assumed that it would be impossibly expensive unless our city center had triple its current residential density

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

I'm interested to see how the Boring project turns out in Las Vegas. Maybe that might help catalyze underground transportation in Denver. I'm quite ignorant on the economics and engineering of underground tunnels systems. I've always just assumed that it would be impossibly expensive unless our city center had triple its current residential density

Going from memory, partly....

Few years ago Seattle built a new tunnel; it cost ~$650 million per mile. Per Wikipedia:

The University Link tunnel is a 3.15-mile (5.07 km) light rail tunnel in Seattle, Washington. The twin-bore tunnel carries Link Light Rail service on the University Link Extension of Central Link (now Line 1), running from the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel to University of Washington station via Capitol Hill station.

In this case it was totally worth it as within a year or so their ridership on the line (extended) virtually doubled.

As a baseline RTD has built 113 miles of light & commuter rail; the FasTracks projects cost ~$70 million per mile. The current 5-mile extension in Phoenix will be ~$182 million per mile which is likely the best case. IIRC Austin is estimating about $225 million per mile for their light rail. FasTracks cost ~$5.7 billion; it you were to start out today at $210 million per mile, it would cost 3X as much or over $17 billion - just for the FasTracks projects.

In 1990 Seattle opened a below grade bus hub station not unlike the bus terminal at DUS. It essentially served commuter routes from wherever as does the DUS terminal. Afiak, the buses have now been kicked out of this hub as they will use this for their ongoing light rail projects.

IIRC, Austin has projected and allocated $2 billion for a 1 to 1.5 mile subway segment downtown.

Note: Per mile costs are an imperfect comparison but the best I've found. Costs will vary depending on the degree of difficulty (obviously).

Subways aren't necessarily faster; it takes time to go from street level to the subway station and back up. Their biggest benefit is they don't conflict with street-level traffic etc so there is some time saving en-route.

[mhays]

Well...

Seattle built a five-station bus tunnel through Downtown in 1990. That was converted to dual bus/rail use in 2009, and became rail-only in 2019, with four stations retained (the 5th site is UC as NA's most vertically-stacked convention center). My dates are IIRC. The point was single-seat rides, a different concept from Denver's single node. This tunnel was especially disruptive to build because the stations each have two platforms and three lanes, which meant digging under the entire ROW.

Our rail is really expensive, particularly the tunnel parts. But there are multiple types of tunnel, and I suspect some of our cost was the type. The line from Downtown to Husky Stadium went under a major hill then under a navigable waterway. The two stations are both pretty deep.

Now we're looking at a third rail tunnel through Downtown, which will be interesting. The first, btw, was a hand-mined tunnel a century ago that handles Amtrak, commuter rail, and freight.

[jhwk]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

I'm interested to see how the Boring project turns out in Las Vegas. Maybe that might help catalyze underground transportation in Denver. I'm quite ignorant on the economics and engineering of underground tunnels systems. I've always just assumed that it would be impossibly expensive unless our city center had triple its current residential density

Here is a great blog by a researcher on transit costs: https://pedestrianobservations.com/

TL;DR: for various reasons, tunneling costs in the US are significantly higher than elsewhere in the world. If we could get costs under control, even in line with the highest-cost European countries, tunnel projects would be far more viable.

I happen to think that even with the high costs a 4-track trunk tunnel from I-25 & Broadway to Civic Center, then from Civic Center to Union Station would be worth building and could be built for a second Fastracks price. Except for the Union Station end, the entire thing could be built with cut & cover if Denver was willing to put up with a few years of street disruption. That would allow the suburban rail system to be converted to a true thru-running S-Bahn system.

Also - the Boring Project tunnel is a useless publicity stunt. Elon Musk bought a used sewer tunnel boring machine and then put a string of Tesla cars in a tiny tunnel. It wouldn’t scale to the level of mass transit.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by rds70

I think the site is an “L” around the 955 Bannock building.

Thanks for that clarification. I think I might see that from the rendering now.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

That's very informative. I think that I-25 and Broadway connection to Civic Center Station would be huge given the transfers and future development at the Gates District

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

I'm interested to see how the Boring project turns out in Las Vegas. Maybe that might help catalyze underground transportation in Denver. I'm quite ignorant on the economics and engineering of underground tunnels systems. I've always just assumed that it would be impossibly expensive unless our city center had triple its current residential density

"Greater Downtown Denver" if you will (Downtown + Five Points + Cap Hill) has 88,000 residents. Cap Hill especially is denser than most lifelong locals would ever imagine. Denver isn't a small or even medium-sized city anymore. 88,000 in Greater Downtown is like 2/3 the population of the Chicago Loop + Near North. I actually can't think of many other city cores that ARE as densely populated as Denver. One of the surest signs that we've become a thoroughly urban market are all of the downtown grocery stores - Underground King Soopers, Nice King Soopers, Whole Foods, Target, Trader Joe's, that local market 16th/Glenarm, among others.

We have to get over this cowtown mentality that allows people to pretend it's still the same city when in fact no place has changed as much as Denver over the last decade.

https://www.downtowndenver.com/newsroom/...cs-accolades-behind-a-thriving-downtown/

The reality about pussyfooting around the edges of infrastructure planning with another LRT or BRT is that we already have a dozen such lines and another won't change anything. We can spend $500 million on another glorified streetscape or double up our money and really change things.

The ironic thing about Denver is that our street grid is too good at moving traffic around central Denver. We really don't have traffic problems, but we do have a parking crisis in most central neighborhoods and one of the nation's ONLY worsening smog crises. You can't even see the mountains 12 miles away on any given work day. In fact, cars crammed everywhere and double-parked is probably the defining architectural feature of Denver rather than mission-style or post-modernism or whatever.

Part of the fatally-flawed institutional design of RTD includes gerrymander-style cracking and packing. All of Denver's dense eastside hoods are packed into District A which consolidates (thus minimizing) political will to serve these neighborhoods, while ensuring suburban control of RTD. We may just have to get rid of RTD to be quite honest, but it's also probably a good thing that RTD never even attempted to touch Cap Hill (unless you count the forever-forthcoming Colfax BRT, which will be a useless and expensive boondoggle). Can you imagine if something as clunky and inefficient as the Welton Line (L Line) was inserted into Cap Hill? So on the bright side, there is still an opportunity to get that right instead of just forcing whatever mode FTA really likes at the time.

Originally Posted by jhwk

Here is a great blog by a researcher on transit costs: https://pedestrianobservations.com/

TL;DR: for various reasons, tunneling costs in the US are significantly higher than elsewhere in the world. If we could get costs under control, even in line with the highest-cost European countries, tunnel projects would be far more viable.

I happen to think that even with the high costs a 4-track trunk tunnel from I-25 & Broadway to Civic Center, then from Civic Center to Union Station would be worth building and could be built for a second Fastracks price. Except for the Union Station end, the entire thing could be built with cut & cover if Denver was willing to put up with a few years of street disruption. That would allow the suburban rail system to be converted to a true thru-running S-Bahn system.

Also - the Boring Project tunnel is a useless publicity stunt. Elon Musk bought a used sewer tunnel boring machine and then put a string of Tesla cars in a tiny tunnel. It wouldn’t scale to the level of mass transit.

Great post, but I really think a subway line should compliment our existing network rather than duplicating it. Baker, Lincoln Park, and Auraria are already well-served by RTD rail. That's why I would shift a little to the east and directly serve Glendale, Cherry Creek, Cheesman, and Cap Hill en route between Colorado/25 and Civic Center. FastTracks built a world-class transit system for outer suburbs and industrial zoned areas of Denver, and that's fine in terms of economic development, but we really need to serve people where they are. There's also no way it would cost as much as FastTracks (6? 7 billion?) but maybe it could be bundled with the Boulder commuter rail and whatever else the suburbs are going to hold us hostage over.

[jhwk]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Great post, but I really think a subway line should compliment our existing network rather than duplicating it. Baker, Lincoln Park, and Auraria are already well-served by RTD rail. That's why I would shift a little to the east and directly serve Glendale, Cherry Creek, Cheesman, and Cap Hill en route between Colorado/25 and Civic Center. FastTracks built a world-class transit system for outer suburbs and industrial zoned areas of Denver, and that's fine in terms of economic development, but we really need to serve people where they are. There's also no way it would cost as much as FastTracks (6? 7 billion?) but maybe it could be bundled with the Boulder commuter rail and whatever else the suburbs are going to hold us hostage over.

I do not agree that the suburban rail is world-class. The northern half works well as an S-Bahn (despite having too much single track and too many grade crossings) but the southern half is pretty poor. The street running dictates a poor level of service for the entire LRT system, but without it the rail wouldn’t effectively serve the CBD. The stub ends at Union Station, the split between the LRT and Commuter Rail, and the miserably slow routing just south of downtown could all be significantly improved. The LRT stations in the Baker/Lincoln Park are on the edge of an industrial area and only serve half-circle areas.

The existing ROW could be used for the Front Range Regional Rail - and a tunnel will sorely be needed for that due to the Union Station stub but it could be short if the existing freight-adjacent route is used.

My “phase 2” plan after the trunk subway would be four Denver-specific U-Bahn lines:
- Colfax to replace the 15/15L/16 busses
- Broadway replacing the 0 sharing the trunk tunnel but continuing on Broadway south of I-25
- Federal south of 6th, crossing Downtown to the northeast, then going east on Bruce Randolph
- A northwest/southeast line going from Tennyson to Highlands to Union Station to Civic Center to Cap Hill to Cherry Creek to Broadway I-25 (this would need to be a bored tunnel)

The line on Welton would be converted to a modern streetcar and extended into Auraria rather than the clunky light rail. The city has stated they want to do this anyway in several studies, but they don’t have money and RTD doesn’t want a third rail vehicle type.