Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[MolsonExport]

Buses suck. I survived on buses for decades, and I hated every minute of it. Crabby drivers that freak out if you dare speak English to them (yes, I grew up in Montreal). The herky-jerky ride, which induces nausea. Standing on the bus, holding onto a strap for dear life with (often stinky) people crammed against you (especially lovely when it is wet outside). SLOWWWW way to get somewhere. Not exactly cheap anymore. Standing outside in the cold waiting for the bus to come, getting slush hurled at you by passing cars. Indeterminate schedules. Yeah, the bus sucks. Trams, Subways, and Commuter trains are infinitely better.

[Peggerino]

I enjoy taking the bus (at least pre-pandemic). Sure, in Winnipeg, there's not a transit alternative but even when I was in Montreal I had no issue taking it as opposed to the Metro. Honestly, if I had the choice between Metro and Bus and the time difference wasn't big I would prefer taking the bus since you can look out the window and it is often more convenient. Sure there are negatives about the bus but people really exaggerate them I feel like (see MolsonExport). Maybe I've been an extremely lucky commuter my whole life but I feel like most of my bus trips in Winnipeg and Montreal have been totally fine.

Buses are a super common sense transit solution but imo people have a pretty irrational hate for them since they're not "sexy" like trams or metro. I could see also a class issue, especially in Wpg but I suspect in other cities as well, where poorer and marginalized folk rely on buses while wealthier people take rail or drive so wealthier people look down on buses as being for poor people.

[megadude]

I rarely take the streetcar or bus. I've taken TTC buses and streetcars about maybe 5 times each in the past 15 years. Anytime it was the bus was not rush hour so can't comment on that. The streetcar probably 4/5 times it was during rush hour, King and Queen lines I believe, and it was awful. Two of those time so jam packed that I had to plan ahead of time an exit strategy to get past all these people to the door. I thought to myself, how do people commute in this everyday? I'm sure it's just as crammed in the bus.

I work on King and I see those King cars passing all the time. They're pretty frequent so it's not like it was bursting at the seams every time but was pretty full. Occasionally it did look like people were packed like sardines with no room to spare.

I've taken the Oakville or Burlington buses in rush hour about 20 times in the past 7 years or so. Total delight. Never once half full. More like 10 people on the routes I took to the GO station. I guess it's not surprising given that both these cities don't feel crammed like TO, Brampton or Mississauga. For instance, I'm being 95% literal when I say this (of course this is not a scientific study), I've never waited more than 5 minutes in a grocery line in Oakville or Burlington. It's more like 3 minutes or less. Don't go to Costco though, it's basically every other store.

I've waited a couple times half an hour in line in Brampton at a No Frills and Food Basics. There's just so many more people and cars in Brampton and Sauga. However, I took Brampton and Sauga transit a couple times each from Bramalea GO or Port Credit GO in rush hour and there was no standing involved for anyone. Perhaps those routes aren't as busy as some others though.

Anyway, I do agree that streetcar in general is more pleasant. It just feels better and is cooler. I've been on a couple of old ones at museums like the one in rural Halton Hills and somewhere else I can't remember where it takes you a very short journey and back and they were cool experiences. I wouldn't have felt the same level of interest for an old bus. Though when I was a kid I had fun on the bus a few times on summer afternoons as two of my uncles were TTC bus drivers and they'd pick up me and my cousins and do a loop from Markham to Scarboro and then we'd go back home.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Metro/LRT all the way, but I don't live in a town with that anymore. So bus it is. I am exceedingly fortunate to live within two blocks of two options and I go early enough that there's few people on it. So, all in all, the bus is not bad.

[Acajack]

I am perfectly fine with buses if they're running on a BRT system. Especially if they're articulated.

[Monolith]

Autumn City by Alan, on Flickr


https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikelan1986/50582631241/

[giallo]

Buses in Seoul are my preferred way to get around the city. They get a dedicated lane, so the trips are much quicker than taking a taxi, and there are far more routes to choose from versus the subway.

[ue]

^ The buses in Seoul are quite good. The neighbourhood ones are pretty wild, though, and drivers there are not as smooth as what you'd expect in Canadian cities (a lot of jerking and sharp stops).

Originally Posted by Peggerino

I enjoy taking the bus (at least pre-pandemic). Sure, in Winnipeg, there's not a transit alternative but even when I was in Montreal I had no issue taking it as opposed to the Metro. Honestly, if I had the choice between Metro and Bus and the time difference wasn't big I would prefer taking the bus since you can look out the window and it is often more convenient. Sure there are negatives about the bus but people really exaggerate them I feel like (see MolsonExport). Maybe I've been an extremely lucky commuter my whole life but I feel like most of my bus trips in Winnipeg and Montreal have been totally fine.

Buses are a super common sense transit solution but imo people have a pretty irrational hate for them since they're not "sexy" like trams or metro. I could see also a class issue, especially in Wpg but I suspect in other cities as well, where poorer and marginalized folk rely on buses while wealthier people take rail or drive so wealthier people look down on buses as being for poor people.

This. I've also taken buses in Montreal and the drivers have been fine with English (same as the Metro). I will admit trains are sexier and I prefer them and, particularly if below or above grade, can be a more direct route than surface streets. They have bigger capacities, are smoother (though Toronto streetcars can be quite rumbly), etc but I really think the bus experience is being exaggerated and it's kind of snobby. People make it seem like buses are riddled with "bus people" that are some sort of "People of Walmart" analogue which is incredibly classist. I've seen tons of "characters" on Toronto's subway, Edmonton's LRT, Vancouver's Skytrain, and Calgary's C-Train. Also people keep bringing up crowded buses like... I've been completely crammed between sweaty office workers or festival-goers on the Montreal Metro, Toronto Subway and Streetcar, Edmonton LRT, and Calgary C-Train. It's not a bus phenomenon.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by ue

^ The buses in Seoul are quite good. The neighbourhood ones are pretty wild, though, and drivers there are not as smooth as what you'd expect in Canadian cities (a lot of jerking and sharp stops).

Yup. You've definitely been on a Seoul bus. I won't get up out of my seat until the bus makes a full stop. I've been flung in to other passengers on a few occasions.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Autumn City by Alan, on Flickr

This picture is spectacular!

Really gives the Vancouver skyline a long yet layered look.

The Butterfly and The Stack will really add to this angle too.

[ue]

Originally Posted by giallo

Yup. You've definitely been on a Seoul bus. I won't get up out of my seat until the bus makes a full stop. I've been flung in to other passengers on a few occasions.

I recall once witnessing a bus driver closing the doors too quickly on an older passenger trying to enter a bus and clipping her hand in Gangnam. He needed to go to the nearby pharmacy because she was bleeding. Or how the neighbourhood-level buses rip up and down the winding, narrow streets and somehow don't hit anything. Seoul bus drivers are wild.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Buses suck. I survived on buses for decades, and I hated every minute of it. Crabby drivers that freak out if you dare speak English to them (yes, I grew up in Montreal). The herky-jerky ride, which induces nausea. Standing on the bus, holding onto a strap for dear life with (often stinky) people crammed against you (especially lovely when it is wet outside). SLOWWWW way to get somewhere. Not exactly cheap anymore. Standing outside in the cold waiting for the bus to come, getting slush hurled at you by passing cars. Indeterminate schedules. Yeah, the bus sucks. Trams, Subways, and Commuter trains are infinitely better.

I don't know if bus driving attracts sadists because it gives them a chance to fuck a lot of people over, or if they're only more visible in the profession because they're actively fucking people over.

Busses are cramped and uncomfortable, but they're fine for milk runs and trundly cross-town trips. I'd hate to depend on one though. They're perpetually stuck in traffic and late or--even worse--early. And I swear they come equipped with some kind of black hole or black magic that allows them to drop off the face of the earth when you really need them to show up at all.

Still better than cars though.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Toronto streetcars actually aren't wider than buses. They're roughly the same width give or take a few cm depending on the model.

It's possible they may not actually be wider. They do feel wider in particular at the rear with 2 by 2 seating. Maybe it's because TTC's Orion buses have dark interiors and are low floor/ high floor hybrids compared to the fully high floor CLRV/ALRVs.

I'm referring to ambiance. I agree with most of the commuters on my routes. The bus replacements during track reconstruction, road closures, etc. were much faster and most wanted the buses to be permanent. Since, the TTC has eliminated needless stops on the route and the low floor design and multiple entrances will allow much faster boardings. The times should have come down a fair bit providing traffic out east is still the same. (doubtful since the city has eliminated dozens of arterial East/West lanes for bike lanes)

[TorontoDrew]

Humber Bay, Downtown, and Midtown Toronto skylines, image by urbantoronto.ca Forum contributor Jasonzed

[ue]

^ That is a very cool shot!

Originally Posted by biguc

I don't know if bus driving attracts sadists because it gives them a chance to fuck a lot of people over, or if they're only more visible in the profession because they're actively fucking people over.

Busses are cramped and uncomfortable, but they're fine for milk runs and trundly cross-town trips. I'd hate to depend on one though. They're perpetually stuck in traffic and late or--even worse--early. And I swear they come equipped with some kind of black hole or black magic that allows them to drop off the face of the earth when you really need them to show up at all.

Still better than cars though.

What? Now we’re villainizing bus drivers? Even though subway drivers can also fuck people over? I’ve had more issues with transit patrons, but if we’re talking about workers, the worst I’ve had was from the New York Subway (and to a lesser extent their buses) but that’s really because they’re stuck operating infrastructure that is falling apart and that has not kept pace with growth.

Also the previous comment about buses being slow... have you been on the 503 streetcar? Sexy train design but horridly slow. Often faster to just walk down Queen St. At least a bus can weave in and out of traffic. Toronto streetcars regularly get stuck behind garbage trucks lol.

(And I say this as someone who loves TTC streetcars)

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by ue

Why? I'll admit I prefer trains to buses. They've got better capacity, more permanence, and they're just cooler. But there's nothing beyond this that makes trains better than buses. In fact, in many cases, buses are a better option. There's no rationale behind folks who will use a train but not a bus, beyond irrational elitism.

And Toronto's streetcars are often as crammed as major TTC bus routes. The 504 King is often as, if not more, crowded than the Jane bus.

2 things, 1 the streetcar is a much more comfortable ride then any bus, preferring a smooth right to a bus has nothing to do with elitism. Streetcars predate buses by about a century and I'm glad we still have them.

2. Since removing thoroughfare traffic on King pre covid it was and is the fasted form of transit across the core and was almost never jam packed anymore.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by ue

I recall once witnessing a bus driver closing the doors too quickly on an older passenger trying to enter a bus and clipping her hand in Gangnam. He needed to go to the nearby pharmacy because she was bleeding. Or how the neighbourhood-level buses rip up and down the winding, narrow streets and somehow don't hit anything. Seoul bus drivers are wild.

Despite how much of a rush Seoul bus drivers always seem to be in, taxi drivers in this city are far worse. 80% of them seem to be tap-dancing on the gas and brake. I don't get motion sickness normally, but by the end of a 20 minute + taxi ride, I feel like losing my lunch. My wife, who's more prone to motion sickness, has sworn off of them completely. The majority of them are just terrible drivers.

[ue]

^ I agree about the taxi drivers. Tokyo is shockingly calm (in this way) when coming from Seoul.

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

2 things, 1 the streetcar is a much more comfortable ride then any bus, preferring a smooth right to a bus has nothing to do with elitism. Streetcars predate buses by about a century and I'm glad we still have them.

2. Since removing thoroughfare traffic on King pre covid it was and is the fasted form of transit across the core and was almost never jam packed anymore.

1. I'm not against streetcars and am glad Toronto still has them

2. I recognize the benefits

3. They still have many of the flaws that buses do

4. I've been on the 504 King westbound from Spadina at 5pm when there's a streetcar running every couple minutes and each one is packed and nobody is getting on or off. Yes, post King St Pilot Project.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by ue

^ That is a very cool shot!



What? Now we’re villainizing bus drivers? Even though subway drivers can also fuck people over? I’ve had more issues with transit patrons, but if we’re talking about workers, the worst I’ve had was from the New York Subway (and to a lesser extent their buses) but that’s really because they’re stuck operating infrastructure that is falling apart and that has not kept pace with growth.

Also the previous comment about buses being slow... have you been on the 503 streetcar? Sexy train design but horridly slow. Often faster to just walk down Queen St. At least a bus can weave in and out of traffic. Toronto streetcars regularly get stuck behind garbage trucks lol.

(And I say this as someone who loves TTC streetcars)

Nah, bus drivers have an annoying job. I get it. Just taking an ironical stab at figuring out why bus service runs... off the rails.


But yeah, Toronto's streetcar system is pretty idiosyncratic in how much it mixes with traffic. We kind of take that as a baked-in flaw with streetcar systems, but it doesn't have to be that way. I get tripped out every time I'm there that in places where there's an island stop (I don't know what they're called--these things) that cars are allowed to drive on the tram side of the platform, potentially blocking the tram from reaching the platform. No wonder they're always getting stuck in traffic.

[J.OT13]

Images from from Ottawa's St. Charles Market mixed-use development on Beechwood.

View towards the north end of the CBD and ByWard Market left of the church spire (with Cathedral Spires visible in the distance), Lowertown and parts of Hull right of the spire.


https://twitter.com/MathieuFleury/status/1329911456654090240

North towards Gatineau Hills.



View towards the east-end of old (mid-century) Ottawa.


https://twitter.com/stcharlesmarket/status/1090649468054122501